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  1. #1

    Some confusion with Sub PvE opener.

    After reading some guides regarding the optimum opener for sub (can't directely link because i'm a new member to the site) I'm not sure whether or not I should use Shadow Blades in my opener along with Shadow Dance. Most guides say that stacking Shadow Blades with Shadow Dance is a net dps loss, but Shadowcraft has a setting "Use shadow blades on ..." With Shadow Dance being the net highest dps return. So i'm confused what the optimum opener would be for maxing dps in a patchwerk situation.

  2. #2
    One thing you have to remember about SC is that it averages things like trinkets. Unless you overlap your opener FW with shadow dance, your trinkets (and most of your potion) are gone before you hit dance and therefore also blades. If you also consider that Shadow blades actually benefits less from ambush than backstab, its clear the reason SC wants you to stack them is because of the synergy of extra cps (and thus evis) and FW. Also I'm pretty sure that SB auto attacks are on the yellow table and therefore still superior to 100% armor ignoring white attacks so stacking that with trinkets is a nice bonus. So I'm pretty sure that on the opener you are better off hitting SB immediately and using dance when your first FW fades (and stacking shd and sb after that).

    But hey, some one feel free to rip apart my argument.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-10-19 at 06:17 PM.

  3. #3
    I believe shadow blades are non-normalized yellow attacks (obviously normalizing them would be ludicrous).

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I believe shadow blades are non-normalized yellow attacks (obviously normalizing them would be ludicrous).
    Well yeah, its still an auto attack so normalizing would be pointless. The main thing would be that yellows don't glance (which I'm pretty sure is still a thing). Theres other differences but I'm not sure they'd be relevant..

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    The main thing would be that yellows don't glance (which I'm pretty sure is still a thing).
    It is still a thing, and they don't glance, correct. SB under FW does still contribute moving all melee attacks off the glancing/miss table.
    (unless I'm horribly wrong, but I did check some logs to make sure this made sense)

    As tremendously weird as it still sounds for SB under FW to be an advantage, I strongly suspect that (at the start of the fight) this is a leading contributor - auto attacks not missing or glancing with trinkets and all other buffs active.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-10-19 at 09:20 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kael View Post
    As tremendously weird as it still sounds for SB under FW to be an advantage,
    Is it that weird though? The only thing that suggests not to stack fw and sb is that the 100% arp on your auto attacks during fw is wasted because sb's auto attack buff trumps it. The other part of sb (cp generation) is considerably more valuable as your extra evis will ignore armor. So its not like there isn't synergy between fw and sb and only drawbacks. Now yeah it may not be obvious if gaining synergy with the extra cp is better or worse than 'wasting' armor ignoring auto attacks, but that it could end up where synergy from cp generation is ahead shouldn't be that shocking.

  7. #7
    Oh, gut feelings (the way it "sounds") aren't really representative of how reality lines up - like stepping INto a punch rather than away from it, it just goes against my natural inclination. I absolutely see where it comes from and it makes sense; it's just that everything saying "maintain maximum FW uptime! Warning, maintain maximum FW uptime!" in my entire sub-time of FL/DS wants me to see it as more FW uptime, and thus, not paired outside of Spine of Deathwing (DAMN that encounter).

    It's not surprising, it just is... weird to think of pairing ArPen with ArPen when ArPen has so studiously been our goal.

  8. #8
    High Overlord
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    Like others I feel like stacking SD and SB is something that shouldn't be done, which is why I've so far have used a opening that's something like SD, SB, SD, Vanish, Vanish, SD (with AoC trinket) for the last few weeks. That said I have reason to believe that stacking cooldowns can be beneficial. Namely that every rogue getting better ranks than me on wol seems to be doing it. (And I can not really blame the gear at this point.)

    This is what I found studying some logs (Malkorok 10hc):
    - Not stacking cooldowns I managed to do 27M+ damage the first minute of the fight. I were also quite lucky with trinkets getting two rppm procs early on.
    - The other rogues stacking cooldowns managed 32M+ damage the first minute of the fight.
    - The rest of the fight I did the same dps as two of them, 15k more than one, and 30k less than the top one. (He's russian.)

    So one minute into the fight, being the most lucky with trinkets, I were 5 millions behind on damage, I had both vanish and prep off cooldown, and I had slightly longer cooldown on Shadow Blades. That seems like a rather unwinnable position to me.

    I am not entirely sure stacking every SB with a SD is the way to go, but from next week on I will try to use my first SB and SD as early as possible, to get the most out of trinket procs. My theory is that getting the cooldowns in during the opening burst with both trinkets, potion and heroism is the reason it's good, not because SB and SD have so good synergy. I'd actually argue the synergy is the worst in the game.

    I might even give it a try to not use SB on cooldown, but save it for the first trinket proc after, unless the timer on AoC is long and Haromm's have just proced. RPPM trinkets have a rather high proc rate atm, and the duration fits nicely with SB.

    I'm quite tired, and this post seems rather messy, but I hope I gave some worthwhile input to the topic. If someone feels like comparing stacking vs not stacking you can use my logs as an example of a person trying to get the highest amount of ArP uptime. So far looking at other peoples logs I've seen none else going that route. http://www.raidbots.com/epeenbot/eu/xavius/oggiva/

  9. #9
    I just tried and tried and tried.

    While SB makes your autoattacks already ignore armor and common sense would suggest not to use that during FW uptime, still i ended doing more damage/dps when i stacked SD and SB. So i'm stacking them.

  10. #10
    Would this mean that your very first sb comes after the first application of fw (the initial stealth pull) and when you pop your first sd? Or at the start you just pop sb before sd?

  11. #11
    i still would just wait until sd is over, so you can use backstab as cp builder, which will yield in more finisher while fd is up?!
    Last edited by hYrsch; 2013-10-21 at 05:16 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by hYrsch View Post
    you can use backstab as cp builder, which will yield in more finisher while fd is up?!
    This is true, but is not yielding higher DPS compared to blowing everything at the same time, so it would be a mistake to do so.

    Avengerx - given the primary reasoning is going to be getting pumped auto-attacks and CP during your all-trinkets-are-go phase, yes. You should have SnD up from the pre-pull, so after FW is applied, unless your trinkets hate you, there's next to 0 ramp-up time.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    Would this mean that your very first sb comes after the first application of fw (the initial stealth pull) and when you pop your first sd? Or at the start you just pop sb before sd?
    I pop SB with my first SD and then try to align them as much as possible.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I pop SB with my first SD and then try to align them as much as possible.
    Ok, but you're giving up at minimum a guaranteed trinket and both weapon enchants on your SB and even your AoC will probably end before your SB completely finishes. And what specifically about dance makes you think its better to delay SB for it instead of using it during your opening FW (the tail end would be chained into shd anyway)? I can't see any reason to do so as the SB synergy with FW is the bonus, it is less effective on ambush, and the agi proc issue is a good reason not to.

    To be clear, I'm talking specifically about the opener and not stacking shd with SB later on.

  15. #15
    Will do more tries - all i have is anecdotal evidence, so i'm not stating facts nor proving my theory. Very likely my CD management is a little/greatly off track; since there is actually no "average people" playing Sub (high-end progression rogues use it for specific fights due to SD frequent and short high-burst phases, and they are a different league from the great majority of rogues, myself included) i'm focusing on it for every SoO fight and just trying it on any possible environment.

    Will try and pop SB as soon first SnD\SV is up (i run hemo glyph) - i expect a definite increase in opening damage, but i'm not sure how it will net to the end of the fight.

  16. #16
    I'm not suggesting you change anything later on in the fight. And sure, the final dps difference by changing your opener is going to be small, but there is still really no reason not to try to up it. I mean for assassination theres been constant discussion over ambush vs mut or snd vs rupture and getting agi procs during SB or not is probably a larger difference than those.

  17. #17
    Well, i'm taking it as a suggestion. Since Sub is mostly a cloudy and unknown enviroment, everything is worth a try at the moment

    I'm willing to maximize Sub performance. Since i specced into it because i wanted to specialize in single target damage due to aoe being already sufficient in my raid, i need to keep up the pace so i won't fall behind the others, and atm i'm confindent i'm going pretty well.

    Example: on Spoils (normal) i do more or less the same damage as our combat rogue. Cleave should be highly favored for that fight, but i found that it's equally useful to just focus high priority targets - i basically nuke urns and golems on mogu room, amber encased kuchongs and medium targets on mantid room. There ay be less aoe, but my targets die in a matter of seconds.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2013-10-22 at 09:42 AM.

  18. #18
    So its worth using SB with SD at the start or keep SB untill FW fade?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerya View Post
    So its worth using SB with SD at the start or keep SB untill FW fade?
    That has definitely been answered above, and I don't feel like repeating what has already been said in this 1 page thread.

  20. #20
    I've also gotten a bit higher results using both at the same time (@Nerya: yes that would mean blowing sb at the start), this also netted at least 1 more evis during "prime time" with prepot and all trinkets going. So far it seems that using them together is a dps increase but as Coldkil said it still needs lots of experimentation and such.

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