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  1. #21
    Just adding - we're talking about the opener. So far best results i have netted are with Prep - SnD - Ambush - Rupture (should be at 5 CP now with HaT) - SB - Hemo - SD - then cycle as normal (after FW from SD has exprired, i throw Vanish).

    Anyway, in the grand scheme of things, we're talking about a small damage increase. I personally have macroed SD with SB - if SB have something like 7 seconds left, i delay SD to align the two; the additional cp generation during SD means that you're basically doing Ambush/Evis for all SD duration.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Just adding - we're talking about the opener. So far best results i have netted are with Prep - SnD - Ambush - Rupture (should be at 5 CP now with HaT) - SB - Hemo - SD - then cycle as normal (after FW from SD has exprired, i throw Vanish).

    Anyway, in the grand scheme of things, we're talking about a small damage increase. I personally have macroed SD with SB - if SB have something like 7 seconds left, i delay SD to align the two; the additional cp generation during SD means that you're basically doing Ambush/Evis for all SD duration.
    but the benefit of sd is also using ambush, while having sd+sb up together, you wont cast as many ambushes for more evis.

  3. #23
    Stealth
    Premeditation
    Tricks your tank or big burst DPS (optional)
    Unstealth
    Slice and Dice
    Pre-pot
    Stealth
    Shadowstep
    Ambush

    All in a very small window. That's what I've been doing on the occasions I play sub, which is so far just for Iron Juggernaut.
    Jsz
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jsz View Post
    Stealth
    Premeditation
    Tricks your tank or big burst DPS (optional)
    Unstealth
    Slice and Dice
    Pre-pot
    Stealth
    Shadowstep
    Ambush

    All in a very small window. That's what I've been doing on the occasions I play sub, which is so far just for Iron Juggernaut.
    you are like totally missing the point here. we were discussing how you should use your cooldowns in the beginning and you didnt even mentioned one of them.


    BTW: i suggest you pop sb as fast as possible if you got the 4p bonus. if you wait with sb until fw is no longer up, it can happen that if you are lucky/unlucky with the 4 p proc, you have sd already up again before you could use sb. so better use it straight away

    Edit: on another note; you should rly screw assasination and play sub/combat for the fights. that should give you better results in most fights, especially with the sha trinket
    Last edited by hYrsch; 2013-10-23 at 09:33 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jsz View Post
    Stealth
    Premeditation
    Tricks your tank or big burst DPS (optional)
    Unstealth
    Slice and Dice
    Pre-pot
    Stealth
    Shadowstep
    Ambush

    All in a very small window. That's what I've been doing on the occasions I play sub, which is so far just for Iron Juggernaut.
    I use this too, but too add something to the discussion here my next move is Hemo > Ambush > Rupture > engineer gloves + berserking > ShD + ShB > normal rotation. Important to not forget to refresh SnD from the 2 cp SnD at start. When FW is about to expire I vanish and do prep. Then hopefulle get a 4p proc in between otherwise vanish again and then ShD is back up. Got a rank 1 on Thok hc with this and i think it fits my playstyle well. Might not be the best but I guess the difference between similar openers is minimal.

    And like someone said before, I too macroed ShD and ShB together.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Just adding - we're talking about the opener. So far best results i have netted are with Prep - SnD - Ambush - Rupture (should be at 5 CP now with HaT) - SB - Hemo - SD - then cycle as normal (after FW from SD has exprired, i throw Vanish).
    Hey Cold, i'm really wondering what i should do in Sub opener, when FW uptime should be top priority as sub. As i read your opener, you seem to overlap opener Ambush's FW with SD.
    Is the loose of FW uptime worth the overlapping of SD in the first seconds of the fight?

    Until now, my opener was Prep > Prem > Hemo > SnD > Ambush > 5CP Rupture > BS until FW is down , then SB + SD.

    The problem is that AoC proc ends about when my SD starts.

    I have logs of yesterday Normal Iron Jug with me as the 2nd rogue. Both of us are Sub but he outdpsed me in opening, and it was hard for me to get back to him as the fight goes on since the gap was huge between him popping SD very early and me delaying it about + 15~20 sec after start of the fight although i got lucky that my AoC proc started with SD.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7189&e=7469

    Do you change the opener whereas BL is used on pull or not?

    Thank you all for precious advices (Sorry, my English is not that good)
    Last edited by Lain92; 2013-10-24 at 03:36 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I just tried and tried and tried.

    While SB makes your autoattacks already ignore armor and common sense would suggest not to use that during FW uptime, still i ended doing more damage/dps when i stacked SD and SB. So i'm stacking them.
    This. The amount of FW uptime you have in the first minute of the fight (about 40 seconds, if you're using your CDs correctly) makes delaying Shadow Blades a big DPS loss because you'll miss out on some FW-powered Eviscerates.

    To reply to the original question, with my current level of Haste (12.6k), my standard opener is as follows:

    Tricks to the tank
    Pre-pot
    Stealth
    Premeditation
    SND while in Stealth
    Ambush
    Hemo
    Ambush (stealth breaks during/right-after this GCD)
    Backstab x2
    Rupture
    SND
    Shadow Dance and Shadow Blades
    -Standard rotation through SD/SB-
    Pop Vanish at tail end of Find Weakness

    Also, GLYPH OF VANISH. Extending Vanish to 5 seconds makes it possible to fit 4 Ambushes into a Vanish if you pool energy.
    Carp - Illidan-US
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    This. The amount of FW uptime you have in the first minute of the fight (about 40 seconds, if you're using your CDs correctly) makes delaying Shadow Blades a big DPS loss because you'll miss out on some FW-powered Eviscerates.
    No. The reason it is a dps loss is because you miss out on ambushes and eviscerates during potion and trinkets. You'd gain more eviscerates with armor penetration (FW is no better than SB) if you saved SB. If that was not the case there wouldn't be any discussion to be had.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Oggiva View Post
    No. The reason it is a dps loss is because you miss out on ambushes and eviscerates during potion and trinkets. You'd gain more eviscerates with armor penetration (FW is no better than SB) if you saved SB. If that was not the case there wouldn't be any discussion to be had.
    FW > Shadowblades. Shadowblades only effects your auto-attacks.

  10. #30
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    Wow. How come I've never learned that. I guess I'll take it back. (Though I still think the trinkets are the most important part of it.)

  11. #31
    I've got an idea to bring up here, but it will take a minute to explain:

    When I play Subtlety and I look at my stat weights, I have a mental note of certain Haste amounts I should hit. The one I'm focusing on right now (with my current gear) is somewhere around 12,600 Haste because it allows me to put a second Ambush into my 3-second Stealth opener (the one I explained earlier).

    That being said, I've got a new question to broach about Subtlety openers:

    1. Are there Haste breakpoints for Subtlety based on what you're able to do during Vanish?

    And a few follow-up questions to help jog some people's thoughts about the subject:

    1a. If there are so-called "Haste breakpoints" for Subtlety's opener, this is something every Sub rogue figures out based on the amount of Haste they have, right?
    1b. Would the value of Haste drop at all after you figure out where your individual breakpoints are?
    Carp - Illidan-US
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Oggiva View Post
    Wow. How come I've never learned that. I guess I'll take it back. (Though I still think the trinkets are the most important part of it.)
    Your arguement is still sound, I just didn't want someone to interpret that SB and FW served the same function.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Your arguement is still sound, I just didn't want someone to interpret that SB and FW served the same function.
    I know. I don't take it personally, although I'm slightly embarrassed, and I am glad you did. It is much preferred to letting me think something wrong is correct (and spreading it to others!).

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    This. The amount of FW uptime you have in the first minute of the fight (about 40 seconds, if you're using your CDs correctly) makes delaying Shadow Blades a big DPS loss because you'll miss out on some FW-powered Eviscerates.

    To reply to the original question, with my current level of Haste (12.6k), my standard opener is as follows:

    Tricks to the tank
    Pre-pot
    Stealth
    Premeditation
    SND while in Stealth
    Ambush
    Hemo
    Ambush (stealth breaks during/right-after this GCD)
    Backstab x2
    Rupture
    SND
    Shadow Dance and Shadow Blades
    -Standard rotation through SD/SB-
    Pop Vanish at tail end of Find Weakness

    Also, GLYPH OF VANISH. Extending Vanish to 5 seconds makes it possible to fit 4 Ambushes into a Vanish if you pool energy.
    glyph of vanish does nothing as its only increases the time you can TAKE dmg when stealthed without cancelling stealth, but as soon YOU damage someone, stealth will break instantly and subterfuge will proc.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    1. Are there Haste breakpoints for Subtlety based on what you're able to do during Vanish?
    Maybe, but you'd have to time your SnD energy so you always get the same number of ticks while stealthed and also vanish with the pretty much the exact same energy as if you are going for a breakpoint and vanished with 5 less energy (less than half a second of energy regen) then you'd be short or if you vanish half a second late and have an extra 5+ energy, the breakpoint you went for was pointless as you are exceeding what you need. I get the opener thing you mentioned because its always going to be the same without some really amazing precision timing.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by hYrsch View Post
    glyph of vanish does nothing as its only increases the time you can TAKE dmg when stealthed without cancelling stealth, but as soon YOU damage someone, stealth will break instantly and subterfuge will proc.
    You may want to read the effects again, and you may want to plug your toon into Shadowcraft to see that it's a DPS increase. I found this out because I went on Elitist Jerks for the first time in a few months to look at their Subtlety guide.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    You may want to read the effects again, and you may want to plug your toon into Shadowcraft to see that it's a DPS increase. I found this out because I went on Elitist Jerks for the first time in a few months to look at their Subtlety guide.
    Tested, what actually happens: glyphed vanish is like 1 sec longer up than subterfuge, which will result in subterfuge being applied a second time, so 3 seconds longer "stealth". thx for the tip mate.

  18. #38
    copied out of the method rogue forum, posted by noxe

    http://www.methodwow.com/board/showt...ue-Guide/page8

    >>>My standard sub opener (probably the longest opener in the game :P):

    1. Ambush (macroed Premeditation*)

    2. Hemo (glyphed for SV bonus)

    3. SnD

    4. Ambush (last moment of Subterfuge)

    5a. If less than 5cp: Backstab
    5b. If 5cp: Rupture

    6. Backstab/5cp evis

    7. Start pooling energy with 5-6 seconds left on FW because ShD is ready, then when its 1 second left pop your ShD+SB and begin massive Ambush+5cp Evis spam. This time dont think about pooling energy. Squeeze in as many CP builders/Eviscerates as possible

    8. When ShD runs out there is still 10 seconds left of FW, follow the normal rotation until 3-4 seconds left and then start pooling energy so you have enough for 2 x Ambush. When FW expires: Vanish->Ambush->Preparation->Ambush upon Subterfuge expiration

    9. Repeat: follow the normal rotation until 3-4 seconds left and then start pooling energy. When FW expires: Vanish->Ambush->Ambush upon Subterfuge expiration

    10. If you have CDR trinket ShD should be ready, make sure to always do your last Ambush upon ShD expiration

    11. Without single 4p bonus proc your FW should fade after (13+18+13+13+18 = 75 seconds which indicates end of your "opener"). In practice you should get 1 4p proc at some point which extends its duration by another 10 seconds.

    General rules:

    1. MAXIMIZE FW UPTIME (this means dont overlap it aka. in some cases delay cd usage* gonna elaborate later)

    2. Anticipation is a must have talent

    3. Use only 5cp finishers

    4. Snd > Rupture > Eviscerate (although difference between Rupture and FW+Eviscerate should be minimal)

    5. Keep Hemo debuff

    6. Bind Premeditation to your Ambush, below is my macro which is universal 1 button spam macro:
    /cast Premeditation
    /startattack [stance:0]
    /cast [stance:3] Ambush
    /cast [stance:2] Ambush
    /cast [stance:1] Ambush
    /cast [stance:0] Backstab
    7. During SB make sure to use as many combo builders as possible

    8. Whether to sync SB with ShD or not is debatable. What is 100% certain is that you should use both of them together in the start. After that many factors affect it so you need to think on the fly.

    9. When your 4CP procs but FW is up refrain from using Backstab and instead start pooling energy. If u risk energy capping do Hemo instead. With 1 second left on FW use your buffed Backstab. In this case u need to prioritize bonus proc over ShD and Vanish which means that u should delay your cooldowns if necessary. In general: 4p proc > ShD > Vanish


    Perhaps ive missed something because as you can see list is quite long. <<<
    Last edited by hYrsch; 2013-10-28 at 03:52 PM.

  19. #39
    Not sure why some people are opening with Ambush and not a bleed?

    My opener has changed slightly because of Troll berserking, which I have macro'ed to SB, and because my second trinket (other than AoC) is the Ticking Ebon Detonator, which counts down from a high Agi value to a low one. The nature of Berserking and the TED trinket lead me to use SB earlier in my opener and to use ShD separately, a few seconds later.

    My opener looks like:

    (Premed > unstealth > Tricks > SnD + prepot > stealth) > Garrote > SB + Berserking + Ambush > Ambush (end of Subterfuge) > Evis > ShD[/I] > etc.

    Blowing SB and Berserking during subterfuge gives me just enough energy regen to squeeze in two Ambushes reliably after the garrote; also it guarantees that my highest Agi-buffed white hits are not missing and are hitting 20% more often. I evis afterward because TED is reduced by about half by this point and I want to get the biggest finisher I can in while everything is still rolling.

    Added benefit is I have SB on CD a little sooner, so it'll be up a few seconds earlier than if I had saved it for pairing it with the ShD, which otherwise happens three gcds later.

    Long story short, I'm half-convinced using SB during Subterfuge on the pull is the best time to use it if you're playing a troll - and ShD separately, later.

    I am by no means an expert - I am just saying that I have had the best, most repeatable results with this opener - 500-700k dps with bad trinket/cloak procs, 700k-1m+ dps with godly ones.
    Last edited by himitsurugi; 2013-10-27 at 11:49 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by hYrsch View Post
    >>>My standard sub opener (probably the longest opener in the game :P):

    1. Ambush (macroed Premeditation*)

    2. Hemo (glyphed for SV bonus)

    3. SnD
    So rather than SnD pre pull, you're waiting for 2 globals to put it up? You are also using 2 abilities plus auto attacks without having SV up.

    Quote Originally Posted by himitsurugi View Post
    Long story short, I'm half-convinced using SB during Subterfuge on the pull is the best time to use it if you're playing a troll - and ShD separately, later.
    I can't see a single reason saving it for shadow dance and not on your opening FW is better nor has anyone been able to mention one. That is a stupidly large amount of agi you stack with it if you use it early versus waiting to dance.

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