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  1. #41
    Yeah... I don't want loot drama. Lets ignore the whole pick 2 out of the 4 thing...

  2. #42
    The biggest problem with 10 man loot is the bosses that drop tier tokens.

    If they let the bosses that drop tier tokens give 2 pieces of loot + 1 tier token this wouldn't be an issue at all. Because the bosses that drop tier token have like 10+ other items they can drop, and only drop 1 of those each week, and you are most likely (at some point) to get a 2nd or 3rd of the same piece drop, that means some pieces on their loot table NEVER gets seen by 10 man guilds.

    This was not a problem at all during Tier 11 or Tier 12 when 3 pieces of tier was VP purchased, and the other bosses (helm + shoulder tier bosses) dropped 2 items + 1 tier token. Then when DS came out blizzard moved all tier to drop from raid IN ORDER TO MAKE IT AVAILABLE IN LFR, and this screwed over 10 man guilds when it comes to loot.

    The only change to 10 man loot is making the tier bosses drop 2 items + 1 tier. Because these bosses only drop 1 item + 1 tier, some of the items (including weapons and trinkets) are non-existent for 10 mans. If they need to add an extra item to the loot shower of 25 man tier bosses than that is fine.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Players gear up hilariously fast now compared to what it used to be, even in 10-man.

    At level 60 in Naxxramas you got 2 item drops for 40 players from a boss, and no way real way to supplement those drops outside raids.
    You say that like it was a good thing, especially with how low the skill ceiling was and how entirely gear check based almost all of the encounters were. It was a fun and nostalgic time but the system was fucking horrendous and shouldn't be looked back upon as if its some sort of standard that should be followed.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    50% for an additonal item? Okay so long as 25s get 50% for additonal 2 items.
    I've played both modes, but damn 25 so greedy. We're 10/14 HC on 10 and most of a 25m guild with only 1 heroic kill has +10 average ilvl on us. We run with a set 10, they have upwards of 30+ and constantly replace members. RNG is RNG, but I'm still rocking a 543 wep after coining every weapon boss.

    This one time at Brand Camp, I got Singed.

  5. #45
    I think it's a bit unfair that 25man both get 0.24 pieces per person and 10man get 0.2 while they also have a 150% higher chance of getting Warforged pieces.

    I'd really like it if 10man also had a 25% chance of warforged to compensate for the fewer pieces. Getting BiS geared in 25man is "easy" now if you have the heroic raid on farm after a few months, but it's impossible to get even close to BiS in 10man and I think that's a bit unfair. I do like that they're trying to keep the 25man raiding alive, but I still think it's unfair to do it through loot. Small difference or not, it makes a huge difference while your guild is still progressing.

    Maybe they could change the coined loot to have a 25% warforged chance instead of just a 10%?
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  6. #46
    The Patient arioc's Avatar
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    Well out of all the tier pieces that have dropped for us in SoO during the past two weeks 80% have been for hunters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sillistrar View Post
    Also, I love your short-temper. Did you know that people like you are the most fun to mess with? Not that I'm doing it. Yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazoric View Post
    Interception...
    Is that a like a charge within a charge? :P

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    If you are DE'ing 60-70% of your loot from week 1, that means you've build some craptastic ass-backwards setup that consist of like, 2 holy paladins and a resto shaman, no casters and lots of plate dps and tanks or something equally akward. If that's the case, the fault is on you for not making a viable setup that can actually use the gear that drops, not on the RNG of the drops. Alot of people seem to not fully "get" that.

    As for the whole "25 man gets 6, 10 man gets 2!" thing you guys are constantly whining about - have you considered that 25 man rosters are usually significantly bigger than 10 man? A healthy 25 man roster has 35-38 players, while a healthy 10 man has 12-13. 2.5*13=32.5, not 35. The "extra loot" is shared out on the extra players that 25 man's keep in the rosters.
    We also shard about 3/4 of our loot, getting several heroic capes and cloth gear copies. Our comp is Hpala, dual purpose int druid, disc priest, prot war, brm monk, rogue, retpala, lock, mage, and hunter. That's a pretty fair mix all things considered. Running a bigger roster almost always complicates loot unless said group has great luck, 10 or 25. Sounds like an issue of handling a roster far too large. (I've ran a set 25 and a 30-42+ roster before, it was annoying but this was back when there were about 4 drops a boss... didn't really have any issues with gear. Just some carrying and L2P issues) The best idea in this thread has been picking 2 out of 3 loots, or being able to reroll 1 drop, it could still reroll to the same item or something equally shitty. Maybe even just a standard 10-15% chance to get a random drop via personal roll, even include 25m.

    This one time at Brand Camp, I got Singed.

  8. #48
    I'd like to see the Sunwell system re-implemented, or some form of it, it wouldn't solve the major issues but it would definitely make it less painful. Regardless, the tier token system is completely broken for 10 man's, it's terrible vendoring Vanquishers tokens already because that's all that drops.

  9. #49
    I am Murloc! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    I think it's a bit unfair that 25man both get 0.24 pieces per person and 10man get 0.2 while they also have a 150% higher chance of getting Warforged pieces.

    I'd really like it if 10man also had a 25% chance of warforged to compensate for the fewer pieces. Getting BiS geared in 25man is "easy" now if you have the heroic raid on farm after a few months, but it's impossible to get even close to BiS in 10man and I think that's a bit unfair. I do like that they're trying to keep the 25man raiding alive, but I still think it's unfair to do it through loot. Small difference or not, it makes a huge difference while your guild is still progressing.

    Maybe they could change the coined loot to have a 25% warforged chance instead of just a 10%?
    we can equalize loot. It just means that then to compensate 25 will default have higher itemlevels restricted then. Kinda the point of TF loot in 25s being higher you know.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Barrun View Post
    I'd like to see the Sunwell system re-implemented, or some form of it, it wouldn't solve the major issues but it would definitely make it less painful. Regardless, the tier token system is completely broken for 10 man's, it's terrible vendoring Vanquishers tokens already because that's all that drops.
    I have been saying this forever. It's fucking retarded that system wasn't used baseline for every raid thereafter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puuhis View Post
    25 mans already get more loot than 10 mans. 10 people get two items compared to 25 getting 6 items. 25's also get better loot through wf'd gear and generally no loot goes to waste because there's most of the times all spexs accidentally covered. 50% was pulled out of my ass but the idea is the same.
    Loot doesn't go to waste? REALLY now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterik View Post
    25s dont need more loot imo, but like other guy said in this thread? or other thread, tier token shouldnt be counted boss drop in 10s, so boss with tier will drop tier + 2 items instead of tier + item.
    Tier bosses in 25s only drop 3 items and you want the bring the gap closer? Thats fine. Just give us 4 loot per tier boss then. I mean if you get an extra pieace thats all you wanted isn't it? And we keep the playing field even so it shouldn't affect you.

  10. #50
    We tend to get the complete opposite to what the raid needs lol.

  11. #51
    I am Murloc! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiic View Post
    The point is to fix a problem that 25 mans don't have, not to turn up the pressure on the 25 man loot shower.
    Why not 25s have a larger roster to cover with around 30-35 players. 10 mans generally should range from 12-13. I mean you can't expect more loot when you have 1/3 the players. If your loot increases, ours has to increase. Cause and effect.

  12. #52
    I switched from 10 to 25 man this tier. The differences in the loot is massive. Yes, 25 man is still RNG prone, but to my experience it isn't nearly as bad as 10 man. There is more loot per person dropped, and with a larger sample size, the RNG on loot isn't nearly as bad.

    Honestly, it feels like it rains loot in 25 man.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    Loot is fine, it's just an illusion that 25 man drops are less rng. They get a bit more loot and they don't have the problem of DE'ing items on week 1, but in the end they have 2.5 times as many players to gear up.
    This and draco's comment miss the point. The issue with 10s is that a higher proportion of the loot is wasted, not the degree to which one drop affects the raid. Sure, a 10 might only need 1 or 2 caster trinkets whereas a 25 might need 6 but that's really not the issue.

    It's that the odds are noticeably higher that someone in a 25 will be able to use a drop vs in 10s. When you're gearing (so over the first couple of months), it's annoying to see two drops neither of which you can use or to realize that you've DEed 40-50% of the drops in a 10 man raid. When's the last time that all of the drops on a boss in a 25 man raid were DEed early in the tier?
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-10-20 at 09:06 PM.

  14. #54
    RNG is RNG - if you dont like it dont play WoW

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    When's the last time that all of the drops on a boss in a 25 man raid were DEed early in the tier?
    This is from a 25 man: our first week the only thing that was DE'd was cloaks, and we cleared the entire instance. Second week there was a couple DEs, but not many. DEs have steadily gone up since then, but that's mostly because everybody has almost all the gear they need from normals. We almost never DE heroic loot that drops. Rings and trinkets are the only items that are really needed by multiple people still, otherwise almost everyone is decked out with four set and 553+ items in every other slot.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    We only saw Spirit trinket off Horridon twice on 25 man in 22 kills. Thats a 1.5% droprate. RNG is RNG.
    Remotely implying that loot in 25s is anywhere near as horrible as it is in 10s is intellectually dishonest in the extreme. As others have pointed out, Tier bosses with large loot tables are especially egregious. It is entirely expected to never see half the loot that drops off them the duration of the tier.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    7 Immerseus, 7 sha of pride, 7 thok kills (includes a double-normal clear first reset, obv).
    1 Amp trinket, from normal primordius in the first reset.
    25 man is just as prone to RNG as 10 man is. We have had tons of the 2h weapon drop from sha of pride so far, one week we had 3 swords and 3 chests drop, another we had 2 swords, etc - needless to say, quite a few have been wasted, what with DK's using 1H weapons and such.
    The only difference here is that 10 man raiders seem to think one piece of gear is as much of an upgrade for 25 man as it is in 10, and thus values it the same, while in reality, logic says its not.
    Sure, you might be waiting around for one, maybe two if you're melee heavy, AMP trinkets from thok in a 10 man. In 25 man, we need 6 of them. One dropping is nice, but it's far from the goal.
    Basicly, getting ONE item in a 10 man has as big an effect on the raid as getting 2-3 items in 25 man. There's also significant chances for multiple tank loots dropping off of one boss (I still remember Feng dropping 3x tank bracers on our first kill, with us using a Druid and Warrior tank. That was... Annoying) - something that 10 man never has to deal with untill subsequent rekills (and even then, it'd be foolish to assume that 25 man does not have the same chance at getting loot like that which can't be used).
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    You're just as biased as I am, but in the other direction.
    If you are DE'ing 60-70% of your loot from week 1, that means you've build some craptastic ass-backwards setup that consist of like, 2 holy paladins and a resto shaman, no casters and lots of plate dps and tanks or something equally akward. If that's the case, the fault is on you for not making a viable setup that can actually use the gear that drops, not on the RNG of the drops. Alot of people seem to not fully "get" that.
    And I already told you of one scenario where we got 3 pieces of the same loot. Another from this tier would be 3x weapons from sha of pride (which drops both the BIS healer trinket and agility trinket).

    You stating that it's "irrellevant" that 25 man can also get RNG'fucked means that it's irrellevant that 10 man can get RNG'fucked, too.

    As for the whole "25 man gets 6, 10 man gets 2!" thing you guys are constantly whining about - have you considered that 25 man rosters are usually significantly bigger than 10 man? A healthy 25 man roster has 35-38 players, while a healthy 10 man has 12-13. 2.5*13=32.5, not 35. The "extra loot" is shared out on the extra players that 25 man's keep in the rosters.
    I think that these comments are spot on (draco usually is pretty logical anyways), loot RNG is present in both raid sizes. The introduction of bonus rolls/coins has lessened that RNG a tad, but it's still an issue at times.

  18. #58
    My only qualm with loot in this game (and it doesn't even bother me that much) is how often I'll coin the same loot from the same boss 3 weeks in a row. Think I've gotten something like 5 pairs of boots off protectors, but still no AoE reduc trinket.

    RNG pls

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    7 Immerseus, 7 sha of pride, 7 thok kills (includes a double-normal clear first reset, obv).
    1 Amp trinket, from normal primordius in the first reset.
    25 man is just as prone to RNG as 10 man is. We have had tons of the 2h weapon drop from sha of pride so far, one week we had 3 swords and 3 chests drop, another we had 2 swords, etc - needless to say, quite a few have been wasted, what with DK's using 1H weapons and such.
    The only difference here is that 10 man raiders seem to think one piece of gear is as much of an upgrade for 25 man as it is in 10, and thus values it the same, while in reality, logic says its not.
    Sure, you might be waiting around for one, maybe two if you're melee heavy, AMP trinkets from thok in a 10 man. In 25 man, we need 6 of them. One dropping is nice, but it's far from the goal.
    Basicly, getting ONE item in a 10 man has as big an effect on the raid as getting 2-3 items in 25 man. There's also significant chances for multiple tank loots dropping off of one boss (I still remember Feng dropping 3x tank bracers on our first kill, with us using a Druid and Warrior tank. That was... Annoying) - something that 10 man never has to deal with untill subsequent rekills (and even then, it'd be foolish to assume that 25 man does not have the same chance at getting loot like that which can't be used).
    I think your argument that finally getting one Trinket or weapon (w/e the case may be) in 10 mans is equivalent to 25 man getting 2-3 is a good one. I had never really considered that aspect. Still though 10mans may go from 0% of casters having the trinket to 100% in one drop..... but all too often that doesn't happen for months. At least in 25man there is a steady, more predictable progression.

    Again as a 10man raider i'm all for 25man raids having advantages, I don't want to see them diminish any more than they already have have. However from my perspective as someone who hasn't done any 25man raiding since Ulduar, 10man loot is rough. BiS isn't something that should really be considered. There's no point in passing on an upgrade just b/c it's not your BiS b/c odds are your BiS is never coming, especially if there's someone else that needs it just as bad as you do.

    Bottom line 10man loot could be improved, I don't see how it's being greedy to ask to choose 2/4 pieces that drop. I'm not asking for more loot overall, just an improvement to possibly never seeing important items.

  20. #60
    My only issue is coining a cloak that is just bullshit.

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