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  1. #41
    Brewmaster Murderdoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpeddakota View Post

    But you people would rather come cry about it on the forums instead of making a change!
    The Vote/Kick system is just not set up to be supportive of anything like this. Its protection for the bad and lazy.

  2. #42
    The stats show just how few people have finished the legendary quest chain.

  3. #43
    I hope that it is realised that you can unlink your characters (as I have done) by using an option in game. This means that there can be many characters not tied together via achievement.

  4. #44
    Brewmaster Alayea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpeddakota View Post
    I blame the community not the player honestly. IF we has a community enforce people actually having to play their toons (vote kick like crazy anybody sub 50k dps, people in current raid tier with no gems/enchants) then we will actually have a change in the community as these players would get fed up with always being kicked after 1 fight in LFR.

    But you people would rather come cry about it on the forums instead of making a change!
    I've done my share of kicking trolls and bums from LFRs. Unfortunately, something was messed up when 5.3 was released that rendered a lot of people unable to initiate vote-kicks whatsoever (yay 2/4 hr error). This resulted in an increased tolerance for bad players because what else are you to do if you can't vote-kick? Leave the LFR and hope you don't get an hour-long queue or more?

    The error has mostly gone away in patch 5.4, thankfully, but I've a hunch we'll be feeling the effects caused by 5.3 for a good while.
    Alayea - Enhance/Resto (Main) Lithala - BM/Surv Gekkani - Disc/Shadow
    Mathrie - Fury/Prot Mayae - Resto/Bal Elita - Frost/Blood
    Chrystie - Frost/Fire Draika - Combat Ioreth - Ret/Prot
    Vexbolt - Demo/Destro Yin - WW

  5. #45
    Can you use the Ahead of the Curve achievement to at least distinguish Flexi from NM? And of course the Heroic kill achievement should distinguish HM from NM. Might be an interesting split.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    Do we really need to call in Scooby Do to solve this mystery?

    Tank numbers are down because A) People are fed up with tanking for random people who are jerks B) People who are geared, experienced and willing to tank (and heal) are doing Flex.
    Aren't DPS and heals also fed up with LFR? Why are tanks so much more fed up than the other roles?

    I've tanked LFR and I'd say it's actually the easiest of the three. I suspect the real issue is you can't afk as a tank. Also considering their near-zero queue times a lot of tanks are kind of prima donnas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  6. #46
    "We're looking at the data to try to understand what's going on."

    Instead of looking at data maybe they could try playing the game. I play the game, so I know why I quit tanking.

  7. #47
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Completion rates broken out by difficulty would be interesting.

    Completion rates for raids previous to LFR as a comparison to what they are now would also interesting. I'm curious just how much higher it is now than in previous expansions.

  8. #48
    tanks have more responsibility. dps and heals are easier to play with more room for error. also, you'll notice that older lfr raids don't have as bad of a tank problem. it's easier to do content as an undergeared dps or healer than a tank.

    without making tanking easier, the only way you're gonna get more tanks into lfr is to provide incentive. the cta bonus bag isn't nearly enough since it's usually just a little gold and a useless item. if the cta bag had a significantly higher chance at rare items with a higher gold reward it would help. it also needs guaranteed spirits of harmony, not motes. toss in bonus valor and justice for good measure.

    if that's not good enough then one way to erase the tanking problem is to add items to the cta bag that are no longer obtainable. items that were never obtainable in the game to begin with, too. if you put asian only pets in there, blizzard event rewards from the past, etc... the tank issue would disappear.
    Last edited by Blur4stuff; 2013-10-21 at 03:11 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    tanks have more responsibility. dps and heals are easier to play with more room for error. also, you'll notice that older lfr raids don't have as bad of a tank problem. it's easier to do content as an undergeared dps or healer than a tank.

    without making tanking easier, the only way you're gonna get more tanks into lfr is to provide incentive. the cta bonus bag isn't nearly enough since it's usually just a little gold and a useless item. if the cta bag had a significantly higher chance at rare items with a higher gold reward it would help. it also needs guaranteed spirits of harmony, not motes. toss in bonus valor and justice for good measure.

    if that's not good enough then one way to erase the tanking problem is to add items to the cta bag that are no longer obtainable. items that were never obtainable in the game to begin with, too. if you put asian only pets in there, blizzard event rewards from the past, etc... the tank issue would disappear.
    Or they could make tanking fun, instead of lazily throwing useless rewards out to try and bribe us. It's a game, you play it to have fun not to do something you don't want to do because there might be a mount in the bag.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rixis View Post
    If you'd have waited a week or two, the number of people who'd completed SoO mighta shot up, as it is, people who only raid LFR such as myself, won't figure in the stats at all as he's not released yet.

    (and now i see you referenced that yourself in your comment )
    Yeah, not sure what purpose there is of even putting that chart up there. It just begs to be misinterpreted. Flex has only been out for a short time, and LFR not at all. This chart should have been put up the week before 5.4, or else waited another month. The only thing it really shows is how few people raid compared to how many do LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    I'm just shocked that the percentage of people doing normals and flex is so low.
    Flex has only been out a short time.

    But really, if anything, this graph should be a huge b-slap at those people who want LFR removed. What this graph does show is that the vast majority of people clearing a boss, are doing it on LFR. If they removed LFR, then the dev time that would be devoted to raiding would be slashed significantly to match the % as seen on this chart for SoO

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shudder View Post
    "We're looking at the data to try to understand what's going on."

    Instead of looking at data maybe they could try playing the game. I play the game, so I know why I quit tanking.
    The whole irony of LFR and vote-kicking is pretty much the only people I ever see get kicked out are tanks.

    We will see what they have to do, but I think it is just the success of Flex. If you are a decent tank, there is no reason to be in LFR now. Flex does the same thing and you are grouped with people who are socially accountable, which makes all the difference. Tanking LFR is easy, but it is painfully slow. I did a Immerseus recently and it felt like it took a year to kill him. There was no chance of wiping, and nobody was dying.. but phases were just taking forever... I dropped group and said never again. My top raiding will be Flex mode, but I can tank all the bosses already, so getting an upgrade in LFR doesn´t feel that important to me, not enough to deal with how long it takes.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by chaud View Post
    Just US and EU. Comparing the different difficulties is slightly harder since you can't use achievements anymore, but I am going to look into using the kill counts that you see at the bottom of armory profiles to do so. Not sure how accurate they are, as there are fun bugs like Paragon kills never showing up.
    Should be easy enough to distinguish normal vs heroic as you gain Ahead of the curve on normal and Cutting Edge on heroic, though don't think there is anything to separate LFR/Flex as both will just gain Downfall afaik.

  12. #52
    Dreadlord Baine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Only 2% finished SoO.

    98% are baddies or unsubbed.
    If 98% are baddies, they are the majority so they are not bad. It is the 2% who is better

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Shudder View Post
    "We're looking at the data to try to understand what's going on."

    Instead of looking at data maybe they could try playing the game. I play the game, so I know why I quit tanking.
    Oh he does, but he is a heroic raider who does not have time for such low level stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    Flex has only been out a short time.

    But really, if anything, this graph should be a huge b-slap at those people who want LFR removed. What this graph does show is that the vast majority of people clearing a boss, are doing it on LFR. If they removed LFR, then the dev time that would be devoted to raiding would be slashed significantly to match the % as seen on this chart for SoO
    The vast majority of normal mode and even flex raiders have not cleared SoO. A bunch of progression oriented guilds that do heroic modes later on have also not fully cleared normal. First you complain about players jumping the gun and misinterpreting the SoO numbers and yet you do it yourself.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-10-21 at 06:03 AM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    tanks have more responsibility. dps and heals are easier to play with more room for error. also, you'll notice that older lfr raids don't have as bad of a tank problem. it's easier to do content as an undergeared dps or healer than a tank.
    Tanks usually have more responsibility and less room for error than healers, which again have more responsibility and less room for error than dds. But I wouldn't say they are harder to play. Just because errors have harsher consequences doesn't mean that errors are also easier to make.

  15. #55
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Good lord, where did all of the raiders go? Would be interesting to see current sub numbers.
    If they sampled 2.5 million players (in the west) and 75% of them completed..say Mogushan Vaults, there you have your 1.8 million ppl that raid and this number is higher than raiding participation even in ICC with weekly quests and a 30% buff was. These 1.8 million are everyone from heroic to LFR

    The "real raiders" are the 50 000 ppl that are 14/14 normal according to wowprogress or possibly including flex the percentage that is shown on the graph (5%?). Wing 4 isn't even open on LFR, right?

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...hanics-DLC-411 - right! Flex wing 4 opened last week, LFR opens this.

    So..not sure what you mean where all the raiders are? The first raids have been available for months and months, all content is not yet availabale to all difficulties.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Only 2% finished SoO.

    98% are baddies or unsubbed.
    Well I better get used to off hand remarks like your, naturally I cannot. I like to call you a baddy with the same rights if you haven't finished 14/14 HM.
    Then again, it is ignoring that only 2.5 million raiding people were sampled apparently and this is a completion rate. Millions of others DO NOT CARE about raids

    Lastly: LFR cannot yet access wing 4 of SoO

    Thus is the danger of statistics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shudder View Post
    "We're looking at the data to try to understand what's going on."

    Instead of looking at data maybe they could try playing the game. I play the game, so I know why I quit tanking.
    Yes, that is fair, so tell them. But remember: You are not the center of the game or the universe. What if your reason was "My wife had a baby"? How would we balance the game around that info?

    And the devs are clever enough (certainly more than players) to know that even around THEM the universe does not revolve. What shitstorm would happen if they went "We play the game, we think it is fine". Ofc they play the game. Still...feedback and data from 100 000 players is better than from 10...or just from you.

    I wonder why that is so hard to see?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  16. #56
    I understand LFR folks being frustrated at lack of tanks and healers, but to be honest Blizz aren't encouraging us. I don't need loot there, but did some for the satchel - then it didn't drop. So I raised a ticket and basically got told "yeah we know it's a bug, if that's the only reason you do LFR right now we suggest you don't, you're not getting the satchel awarded after the fact"

    So, that being my *only* reason to ever do LFR, I did as the GM suggested and stopped doing it.

    And yes, it is also frustrating that people like me demand PG, achievements, tactics and 550+ ilevel for Flex and so folks can't get in(and I kick people who can't show they know tactics) but honestly I am finding LFR level people trying to do Flex, who lie about knowing the tactics and wipe us repeatedly, especially using oQueue. At least with those things I stand a chance of them having looked at the tactics and having a clue. I get a ton of abuse for it, but all I am asking is 15 minutes spent reading a site and looking at a video.

    If LFR actually starts offering a decent reward for people like me, we might come back and tank or heal it, but meanwhile the reason so many of us won't do LFR is down to *LFR players* not down to Blizz. It's just that Blizz aren't rewarding us for taking the pile of crap that comes with putting up with those players
    Last edited by faerierhona; 2013-10-21 at 08:16 AM.

  17. #57
    Ive played tank for 8 years now. Tanked every boss there is on every mode there ever was. Even in LFR when it was introduced. I honestly think that in its...

    If you want to know why there is less tanks. Please tank a lfr and you will have your answers.

    ..subtleness, that is the reason why tanks are shying away from LFR. Its a cesspool of toxic, unskilled, rude, and impatient people. I dont think ghostcrab even knowns half of it.

    I used to do some LFR. But for many months already im done with it. For good.

  18. #58
    Very interesting analysis. It shows that the number of "real" raiders (hc, normal, flex) is really low while the majority seems to enjoy LFR. That is really funny, especially if you compare it to the the "LFR has to go" shouters in the official forums. Furthermore, the low amount of people who finished the legendary queet is quite surprising. Seeme like the vast majority of the subscribers is playjng on a really casual basis.

  19. #59
    oh lol onyxia in that outfit

  20. #60
    Pandaren Monk ZeroWashu's Avatar
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    Those percentages look incredibly high.

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