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  1. #201
    Judging from my trade chat, flex is really really popular, more so than normal modes, because of how flex works (pick up groups).
    We just gotta give it a little time, then the number will skyrocket.

  2. #202
    I know I am late to this discussion...

    but how stupid is this thread? The same poll that suggests only 2% of the playerbase has killed Garrosh also says that 36% of the playerbase has done Wing 1 of SoO and 54% have completed ToT.

    Stop taking extreme statistics that any rational person knows is going to change next week (when Wing 4 of LFR opens) and making ridiculous claims.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoon View Post
    I know I am late to this discussion...

    but how stupid is this thread? The same poll that suggests only 2% of the playerbase has killed Garrosh also says that 36% of the playerbase has done Wing 1 of SoO and 54% have completed ToT.

    Stop taking extreme statistics that any rational person knows is going to change next week (when Wing 4 of LFR opens) and making ridiculous claims.
    Though I disagree with the OP, you're definitely late to the party as are many others. The graphic didn't have the 36% boss kill on any difficulty for SoO until quite a few hours after it was put up IIRC so let's refrain from jumping on him too hard.

  4. #204
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    Tier hasn't been out for very long, you're comparing numbers of 5 weeks in with numbers of participation after the entire tier is done.

    There's plenty people doing Flex/Normal that didn't have a chance to kill Garrosh yet on any difficulty.
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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    The charts posted on the frontpage show that although approximately 60% of the playerbase seems to raid (LFR included), it appears that only 2% of those are actually doing flex or normal-mode raiding.

    Back in TBC 2% was approximately the number of players that cleared Sunwell and in Vanilla this similarly was the number of players that cleared Naxx40. This was the elite of the elite, best of the best, in those days.

    It's rather odd to see that Flex and Normal mode raiding has become just as exclusive as cutting edge progress raiding was back in those days.

    It's also pretty obvious how people are very much not interested in organized raiding or raidshedules and that many people stopped normal mode raiding the moment LFR was added to the game.

    Perhaps Blizzard would be smart to recognize this and to start focussing on making LFR / queueable content more the main content and reward of the game than expecting people to commit to raidguilds and their shedules.
    SOO has been out what 5 weeks and you are comparing the total amount of players that have completed it to the total number of players that completed Naxx and SWP after they were out for there entire relevant timeline? I mean of all the variables you didn't even bother to look at time the raid was out should have been at least on your radar at the minimum!

    Blizzard is hitting the nail on the head IMO when you look at how many are participating in raids and how many have completed it. What I take from the stats are - Many are raiding but it's not just face roll for all and a large % of the player base is actively progressing through the zone. Instead of seeing everyone stomp it they seem to have found a good variance between the different levels that is allowing a large % of people to progress through it at a difficulty level appropriate for them.

    I have not yet cleared it and am only at 10/14 normal but for myself it's good enough on 4 hours a week raiding schedule and I'm sure I'm not alone out there slowly progressing through the instance and enjoying it at my pace!

  6. #206
    Bang up detective work.

    Since when did the act of "raiding" entail full clears? I've noticed this in every discussion on here. As long as you're putting in regular attempts per week, you're a raider.

    Clearly that is not being shown in the data.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    Bang up detective work.

    Since when did the act of "raiding" entail full clears? I've noticed this in every discussion on here. As long as you're putting in regular attempts per week, you're a raider.

    Clearly that is not being shown in the data.
    The 36% figure is revealing on that score.

    Fromk the posed numbers, the only logical conclusion is that LFR has been a resounding success in terms of getting people to see the raid content, but that raiding in general isn't very well thought of and as for HC raiding - it is still about as popular as ball cancer.
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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    No, my guild was indeed never really hardcore - but then again. Obviously clearing BWL was a great achievement for us - and we were proud. Which is what it comes to: Do you enjoy what you do. Anyone who would have told us back the "Oh, you only cleared BWL, you suck" would have rightfully deserved to be punched in the face.
    The problem is that you were rightfully proud for clearing BWL and perhaps you would have cleared also AQ40, given you had enough time to catch up.
    I played on an underpopulated realm and getting a raid community was hell, so I know what it means to get achievements that are circumstantially challenging, but that are out of time on a world scale.
    But I don't think anybody is personally satisfied with clearing LFR.
    In fact, I believe that LFR is more like running Karazhan for two years, on the level of enjoyment and satisfaction (but I'm not so sure...).
    Hence the complaints.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memory View Post
    The problem is that you were rightfully proud for clearing BWL and perhaps you would have cleared also AQ40, given you had enough time to catch up.
    I played on an underpopulated realm and getting a raid community was hell, so I know what it means to get achievements that are circumstantially challenging, but that are out of time on a world scale.
    But I don't think anybody is personally satisfied with clearing LFR.
    In fact, I believe that LFR is more like running Karazhan for two years, on the level of enjoyment and satisfaction (but I'm not so sure...).
    Hence the complaints.
    Karazhan is the best regarded/most popular raid of all time, according to blizzard.

    The things which make LFR shit are the same things which make all raiding shit, tbh. Asshats, ninja pullers, loot whores, prima donnas, elitists, neckbeards with no social skills etc. In normal/HC you make a calculated decision as to whether you put up with such types in order to progress or whatever, but in LFR they are always present.

    Not too sure blizzard can do anything about people n the internet though!
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  10. #210
    I think the steady decline of proper raiders comes down to a few points, and the game itself is completely at fault.

    Technically speaking VanillaWOW have all the features it has today but because the simplest things like leveling and gearing was so excruciatingly painful to do, it did breed a certain hardened and tolerant kind of player. I think the reason why a majority of the really old players enjoy the game the most, even tho they've done certain raids and quests hundreds of times by now, is because they know how much better everything has gotten whilst the new players have gotten used to the handouts from the start and according to them the only way to improve is to make it even easier.

    Mediums like 4chan and anonymity come with very hateful consequences which has an extremely destructive effect in an environment where it is utmost important that people need to get along no matter what culture or ethnicity you represent, and this cross realm and LFR queuing thing is exactly what is going to be the demise of this game. When servers were intact and closed off, every single player who "wanted to make it" had some kind of reputation that he needed to hold up to, and throwing anger tantrums and in general being a pain in the ass would ruin you when now you press one button and get grouped up with 24 new strangers.

    Commitment and the words "just a game" have been thrown around alot in this thread, but isn't it about time that you realized that the depth and activities going on in this game is much more like a hobby than some game-of-the-week thing and people should start treating it like one or simply upgrade to something that suites you better. If you are this incredibly unsocial person with absolutely no interest in improving, why are you spending your spare time in a multiplayer game where the main focus is in group activities. If you're just sitting there killing time, how is that any different from being at home getting high all day? Atleast no-one else would be suffering from your presence with alternative nr2.

    Being tolerant of people who you might not like, studying and learning how to write an application that represents you properly and making time to play with friends is just as much hassle as packing your bags and getting to soccer practice/tournaments and depending on the person, the enjoyment of succeeding is just as great if not greater than the other.

    Just because you can't brag about your raiding achievements to people as easily as scoring a hat-trick doesn't nullify the importance of teamwork and execution you've overcome with your friends.
    Last edited by Strafir; 2013-10-21 at 03:44 PM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Lol, nobody cleaned Sunwell in 6 weeks after its release.
    No you're right, because it took 8 weeks until it was all available due to silly gating.
    Without the gating though it would've been a much shorter race, every single boss in Sunwell died on the same lockout that they were released. The longest boss took 6 days and that was M'uru, KJ took 5 and the others pretty much died on the day they were released.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashardis View Post
    Personally I expect lfr numbers will drop off alot the further into this patch we get, its already quiet apparent with the usual lfr boosters having ditched it for better groups and loot
    I'm still doing the second half of ToT LFR (8/12 on runes), but I'm trying to do SoO on Flex only. Didn't do Flex this week on wing #2, so I may have to grit my teeth and do it on LFR tonight. I tried that last night, and bailed after horrible group performance on the first boss.

    LFR is in a death spiral right now, which isn't good news for anyone.

    I think Blizzard got way too full of themselves with trying to make raid encounters "interesting". This doesn't really work for most players, and in particular it doesn't work well with LFR.
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  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm still doing the second half of ToT LFR (8/12 on runes), but I'm trying to do SoO on Flex only. Didn't do Flex this week on wing #2, so I may have to grit my teeth and do it on LFR tonight. I tried that last night, and bailed after horrible group performance on the first boss.

    LFR is in a death spiral right now, which isn't good news for anyone.

    I think Blizzard got way too full of themselves with trying to make raid encounters "interesting". This doesn't really work for most players, and in particular it doesn't work well with LFR.
    On your Battlegroup, perhaps. On mine, LFR is still doing just as well as it did in Throne of Thunder's era. Sure, there's a wipe or two on Spoils still, but my DPS queues are still in the 20-25 minute range for any wing, my tank queus are..not as pleasent (as is the usual for new LFR wings), and if I go with my girlfriend while she's healing, our queues are about 1-2 minutes. Most clears take around an hour or so for the first two wings, and about 45 minutes to an hour for the third wing, which is about par for the course considering that these wings are a good deal larger than what we had in Tier 14 and 15.

    LFR is doing just fine. It's just that some battle groups aren't doing as well as others, but that's always been a problem long before Flex came into the picture. Flex isnt going to kill LFR any time soon, nor is it in a "Death Spiral" just becuase your battle group is having bad queue times or is full of fail groups. And as others have said, the LFR wings are still new. No one seems to recall how the same arguments and complaints were coming back in ToT with Horridon, Durumu, and of course Lei Shen. Yet now I can get on a DPS alt, go in on a monday night, and one shot Pinnacle of Storms without a care in the world.

    Give it time. IF, and that is a big IF, your battle group, or LFR in general, is still struggling come the new year with SoO, and queue times are suddenly becoming similar to trying to queue for LFR Dragonsoul at 85, than you might have an argument saying LFR is on it's death spiral. But right now, it's fine, and there's no reason to start the doom mongering.

    I'd also like to make a final point in that you tried to queue for a relatively new wing on a Sunday Evening, which has never been an intelligent decision when it comes to Raid Finder when new wings are still opening.

  14. #214
    LFR got the highest percentage of players working towards the same goal and they were mostly happy with that, if something like LFR was the endgame then 100% of the players would have an achievable goal, this game would have a lot more subscribers and a lot more happy players.

  15. #215
    The chart is not the people that have stepped into the raids, they are the people that have completed it. Please read more carefully.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm still doing the second half of ToT LFR (8/12 on runes), but I'm trying to do SoO on Flex only. Didn't do Flex this week on wing #2, so I may have to grit my teeth and do it on LFR tonight. I tried that last night, and bailed after horrible group performance on the first boss.

    LFR is in a death spiral right now, which isn't good news for anyone.

    I think Blizzard got way too full of themselves with trying to make raid encounters "interesting". This doesn't really work for most players, and in particular it doesn't work well with LFR.
    LFR from here on out will always probably suffer for the last tier of any given expansion, as there's that less perceived need to get items from it. The legendary quest probably had an awful lot to do with participation numbers all throughout MoP, and you can still see evidence of this, as ToT wing 4 queue times are far lower than SoO ones.

    I'm avoiding LFR on my main simply because I find 1 hour queues to be preposterous, and the encounter tuning on flex is much more to my liking. Still working on wing 3, but I have all the time in the world, and probably won't bother much at all with it after killing Garrosh.
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  17. #217
    More than 2% of players are raiders, assuming you consider Flex to be raiding.

    The thing about the data we are looking at is that it is based on completion of Wing 4- so, that 2% are players who have a Flex, Normal, or Heroic Garrosh kill.

    If you conclude from this data that only 2% of the population, therefore, are raiders, you area saying that players who are anywhere between 1/14 and 13/14 Flex or Normal are not raiders. This is obviously a false conclusion.

    If we had data that showed the % of players who have killed at least one boss in Flex, Normal, or Heroic difficulty in SoO, then we have our raiding population %.

    We also won't be able to accurately compare completion rates until the end of the tier.

  18. #218
    Let me just tell you guys a very simple truth--very few people actually raid in normal difficulty, few people actually raid in Flex, a few people raid in LFR and hardly no one raid in H-mode except a tiny number of hardcore. So, this is how PVE in WOW looks like. I find this situation very absurd and if Blizzard doesn't do anything about it, we will see more and more players who will quit from PVE. As there is no more rewards in PVP, it only results in subscribers lost. I don't know how Blizzard is managing this game exactly but it's certainly not a smart way to drive people out of this game. This game needs one thing now more than anytime before and that is unity. Players are classified and finally we will all suffer from this separation.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
    Wow, so since I havn't completed SoO yet I must not be a raider. Good job OP.

    Btw, I hate LFR and everything it stands for. You have my pity.

    According to http://www.wowprogress.com/ only 21% of raiding guilds (those which have attempted Immerseus; 4122) have killed Normal mode Garrosh, or about 72,135 (1.2%) people (given an even split between 10 and 25 man raid comps.) Compare this to roughly 5 times that number of guilds actively progressing in SoO-- 360,175 (6%) people.

    As mentioned these numbers should go up, and excludes WoW in Asia and Flex. If we assume Chaud accurately reports about 0.8% (most likely more) success from Flex and that about 2% is accurate, then we're looking at a whopping 10% or higher number for people currently raiding Flex and Normal mode SoO. Add to that the fact these guilds are more than likely to be successful downing Garrosh before expanion's end, you're looking at raiding being nearly (at least) FIVE TIMES as popular as it was in Vanilla. And this is excluding WoW Asia numbers as well!

    It's a gross overstatement to say LFR is king of raiding, this early, and disregarding the complete picture.
    Five times very small is still pretty darned small considering that the other 90% are stuck with those same raids as max level group content in order to provide them to that 10%.

  20. #220
    i raid with 3 chars, all of them have downed garrosh. This graph doenst show a very accurate picture of how many players have downed garrosh, only how many characters.
    i know plenty of ppl in the guild who havent done garrosh on their alts but they ahve done lfr/earlier flex parts. and some ppl have characters the raided with last teir but havent touched this teir.

    It seems to me whoever made that graph wanted to cause a shitstorm or wanted to make a false representation of progress.

    A much more intresting graph whould be a percentage of avtive acounts that have the garrosh achiev vs the amount of accounts that have any ogrimmar achievs at all (comparing kills from earlier teirs to now isnt very fair because its less ppl playing now then be4.. and that content is easier now... indeed a very useless graph...

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