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  1. #401
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    WoW subscriber base grew the most when it had way more exclusive content then it does now. Just sayin.
    Can you can explain this please? While each expansion saw a growth in subscribers, that was because the game was getting easier, it started off exclusive, but was fundamentally exciting as a brand new MMO on the market. This meet with their fan base made the most successful MMO. Over the coming years, the game would get easier, not more exclusive.

    On-Topic:

    2% does seem quite low, but remember this isn't 100% accurate. Also remember the majority of players will continue to work on it over the next few weeks with Flex / LFR, and the number will shoot up.

    I will admit that Garrosh is a step up of all the bosses, but I quite like that, and I hope they keep it that way. Garrosh feels like an exciting encounter, I really enjoyed downing it and even on Normal Mode, I got a rush from killing him. I really look forward to the battle to Heroic Garrosh, but I suspect they'll do an Icecrown Citadel Buff or a Dragon Soul Nerf over time.

  2. #402
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    When did you claim you can do a better job? In your next sentence: "I would expect far better return and yes that's true". Discussing pro/con is fine, but making a bold claim that you "would expect far better return" "if you designed the end game experience" without any sort of merit is what made you into forum game designer wanna be.

    No one expected you to have a solution. Fact is, no one knows "the solution". Your approach also have pro/con and I have actually made a post about the challenges (con) of making gear obtainable from every activities in game in the past. Like I have said, people do everything in game for power up and this is true if you are talking about majority. So let me do a quick breakdown to you why people feel the need to power up.
    1. Overcoming challenges that you could not before is fun
    2. Kill things faster than before is fun
    3. See big number pop out is exciting
    4. The sheer excitment of getting the best gears

    So what are the challenges for the best drop obtainable everywhere?
    1. Content consumption rate
    People consume content at an extremely fast pace in today's gaming world. This would require some sort of gating mechanics to prevent people from burning themselves out. You gate things too hard, people quit, you gate too soft, people get burn out or finish gearing too fast and unsub. Either approach is undesirable. So hitting that magical spot will be difficult. On the other hand, people somehow aren't complaining that they can only raid once a week in the west (qq was hard in the east so east lockout is different) so Blizzard can easily gate raid content behind an artificial weekly reset. Other gating mechanics in the past: 1 heroic a day, point caps, extreme grind, resist farm, rep requirement, quest completion requirement etc (not complete list). So for gears to be available everywhere, Blizzard will need to come up with gating mechanics and not everyone will respond similarly to those.

    2. New content production rate
    With fast content consumption, new content production rate needs to increase as well. This part is tricky because how do you pump out new content while making them feel new and different? This is easier to do in dungeons/raids as you create new instances/art for rooms and bosses. But how can Blizzard keep up content production rate outside? More dailies? More timeless isles? Don't get me wrong, I'd be thrilled if Blizzard can always come up with new and fresh ideas every patch and put them out every month. I just think that is quite difficult to accomplish. At some point, there will be repeats and content will feel stale.

    3. Tangible feeling of power growth via killing things
    This has to do with designing mobs/quests such a way that players can have a tangible feeling of powering up when they are going through them. This means mobs/quests must first be difficult and become easier and easier as you get more gear. Sounds simple but is actually hard to balance when gears are obtainable everywhere. This also has an unintended side effect of making catch up rather difficult as you can't go directly to the end, but instead, you have to redo the gear progression before you can even attempt newer content.

    4. The ultimate burn out of the skinner box
    How long can this go on before a player simply get tired of the repetitiveness of chasing BiS after BiS? This is bound to happen and it's just a matter of time. With faster content production rate, the burn out will happen faster. And usually when a player gets tired of the endless BiS list, they quit and do not resub. Also keep in mind, this is a subbed game, not a F2P game. Endless grind for gear, doesn't it sound a lot like diablo? Diablo is great fun for quite some time but imagine how much faster people will quit when you slap a monthly fee on it. And players are unlikely to return as long as the monthly fee is there.

    These are the challenges for you to keep in mind when you think of game design. Consider them when you think of your own approach to end game design. Raiding end game isn't perfect but it does do a pretty damn good job while facing those challenges for Blizzard. After all, it kept subscriptions in millions through MoP. And always remember, your approach (any approach, really) will not be good as long as it's not implemented and refined upon. Whatever approach you think would have better return? Think again, and know that it really might not have better return (it could, but don't assume it would).
    Honestly, I think the only "answer" is to produce enough content to satiate at the same rate it's consumed. Which is both logistically, and financially impossible.

    It's pretty much a lose-lose situation, because the type of gamers the game appeals to, are the kind that are going to get bored really, really fast with how the game is designed around raiding, and when they hit it, they just wait for LFR wings to open up, and then it's down to repetitious content or just quiting after the final wing, or leveling alts or whatnot.

    Aside from that, it would of been MUCH better, long term, had they never, ever nerfed the leveling process for new players. It just enabled people to get bored faster :x

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The numbers clearly show that outside of the first 2 weeks due to being very undergeared, people struggled more with garrosh as the fight in itself is very simple, the gear check was not. Now that people are in the "correct" gear level, garrosh is substantially easier for most guilds.
    Every fight is very simple once you understand it. The true difficulty is not making error over the course of the entire fight and how many opportunities for error will present itself over the whole fight.

    Other than that it's just how much numbers you can put out while avoiding error at the same time. It's the same for every fight but since Garrosh is a lot longer, the possibility for error is much larger.
    Last edited by Orcindauh; 2013-10-23 at 03:18 PM.

  4. #404
    High Overlord Grayjoy's Avatar
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    This is why I hate LFR and why I think it poisoned the culture. I really hope the OP's calls for queue-able content to be the main focus of the game are ignored by the devs. Organized raiding is why I play the game, and it's one of the only things that keeps it fresh and not just a conveyor belt of queuing and waiting in Stormwind.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Honestly, I think the only "answer" is to produce enough content to satiate at the same rate it's consumed. Which is both logistically, and financially impossible.

    It's pretty much a lose-lose situation, because the type of gamers the game appeals to, are the kind that are going to get bored really, really fast with how the game is designed around raiding, and when they hit it, they just wait for LFR wings to open up, and then it's down to repetitious content or just quiting after the final wing, or leveling alts or whatnot.

    Aside from that, it would of been MUCH better, long term, had they never, ever nerfed the leveling process for new players. It just enabled people to get bored faster :x
    Nerfing leveling process serve a different purpose. It is mainly to attract new potential customers and raiding is there to hopefully get those ppl hooked. Problem is that raiding only serve a small percentage of players' true interest (the same goes for pet battle and lore and what not) while the rest are doing them for rewards.

    If Blizzard is able to come up with enough sustainable niche games (there are raiding and pet battling atm), then I can see WoW going F2P + premium cost for these niche activities. But before then, Blizzard can only slow down the decline by getting more players into WoW and get them hooked on the gear treadmill with enough gating so these people stay subbed between patches.
    their moving their table over their
    they're moving they're table over they're
    there moving there table over there

  6. #406
    There's what, 6+ months of this expansion to go?

    Plenty of time. Better it be worthwhile than Dragon Soul zzz status.

  7. #407
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    It's also pretty obvious how people are very much not interested in organized raiding or raidshedules and that many people stopped normal mode raiding the moment LFR was added to the game.
    I think it's unfair to say LFR didn't "poach" a percentage of the normal-raiding playing base, but the reality is that a majority of LFR players never raided/were going to quit committed raiding altogether. Take my brother for instance, he used to be in one of the top-20 European guilds. He did Sunwell. He did Naxx in Vanilla. He saw it all. Then, around cataclysm, he met a girl - got engaged, had a baby. End of HIS organised raiding career...and now he does LFR only. I kinda see a lot of people in his position.

    And I'm one of the "never did raiding before" - unless you count the night he and his guild carried me through Kara. Boy howdy that was a fun night for my 17-year-old self!
    Chickens are awesome.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Trahelion View Post
    Don't tell me that 25-man raiding is harder, because it isn't. Unless you consider having to deal with more bad people, something that makes it harder for you as individual?

    In PvP I've played some classes to 2.2k in 2s and 3s. I can asure you that doing PvP around the 2.2k and above takes by far more skill. PvE was a joke. Like I said, I used to raid 25-man's and it didn't go all that smooth until we formed our own 10-man group out of the best 25-man players. Our theory was that our 25-man progression was bad due to weak links, which was true. The 10-man group just facerolled everything.
    You've kinda contradicted yourself there. 10s are easier from an organisational point of view because you can indeed cherrypick your best players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by risingforce View Post
    Also the act of replacing someone [in a Normal+] is a lot harder than LFR; there is no queue of players. There is (or was) a 'Raid Finder' that never worked. There needs to be an in game bulletin board or GUI that allows RL's to post Raids and for players to be able to 'apply'... at the very least [as RL] you could have a list of substitutes to draw from if someone needs to leave and as a player it would be easier to assess the Raids out there.
    1) There's addons to do this already.
    2) It used to be an in-game feature, but it saw very very little use.
    3) It'll still need some sort of screening process to avoid devolving into LFR quality runs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trahelion View Post
    Some pattern that also backs up my point is that nearly every 'heroic raider' I have known, fails when they attempt to do arenas. Yet every decent PvPer shines when they attempt PvE. The general knowledge and insight that PvE requires doesn't even come close to the knowledge and insight that arenas require.
    I used to be a 25 man heroic raider and I agree with this message. Couldn't do pvp to save my life, and nearly all our best raiders also pvped at a mid to high level. The only other thing a good pvp player needs is patience to raid for a good solid few hours.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Grayjoy View Post
    This is why I hate LFR and why I think it poisoned the culture. I really hope the OP's calls for queue-able content to be the main focus of the game are ignored by the devs. Organized raiding is why I play the game, and it's one of the only things that keeps it fresh and not just a conveyor belt of queuing and waiting in Stormwind.
    Nine out of ten players don't give a shit about organized raiding, and pretty much think you guys are retarded when they hear terms like "application" and "schedule" thrown around about a video game, and you guys need to fucking deal with that fact.

    Organized raiding culture can die off completely and the game will probably be better off for it.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurf Blurf View Post
    Nine out of ten players don't give a shit about organized raiding, and pretty much think you guys are retarded when they hear terms like "application" and "schedule" thrown around about a video game, and you guys need to fucking deal with that fact.

    Organized raiding culture can die off completely and the game will probably be better off for it.
    Not really.
    Last edited by Orcindauh; 2013-10-23 at 09:28 PM.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurf Blurf View Post
    Nine out of ten players don't give a shit about organized raiding, and pretty much think you guys are retarded when they hear terms like "application" and "schedule" thrown around about a video game, and you guys need to fucking deal with that fact.

    Organized raiding culture can die off completely and the game will probably be better off for it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramural_sports

    Practice starts at 8pm and last until 10pm.
    You show up at 9pm: "Yoyo, just got back from partying and I am ready to rock this."
    Coach: "Please adhere to the practice schedule in the future and let us know earlier if you can't make practices or games"
    You: "Lawl, you serious bro? This is just bball game for fun. Why so serious you no life retard."

    Some people take their fun more seriously while some other people take their fun less seriously. There is no right/wrong here. Only wrong is when you go around calling people retards for taking their hobbies more seriously than others.
    their moving their table over their
    they're moving they're table over they're
    there moving there table over there

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    Not really.
    Is this the part where you tell me how casuals would all quit without any "greatness to aspire to" or some such self-serving claptrap, or is it the part where you imply that they'd all be lost without the guidance of whatever hardcore powergaming website they don't go to anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramural_sports

    Practice starts at 8pm and last until 10pm.
    You show up at 9pm: "Yoyo, just got back from partying and I am ready to rock this."
    Coach: "Please adhere to the practice schedule in the future and let us know earlier if you can't make practices or games"
    You: "Lawl, you serious bro? This is just bball game for fun. Why so serious you no life retard."

    Some people take their fun more seriously while some other people take their fun less seriously. There is no right/wrong here. Only wrong is when you go around calling people retards for taking their hobbies more seriously than others.
    Intramural players don't petition the city government to ban backyard sports because they make the intramural players "experience feel less special" now do they?

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurf Blurf View Post
    Intramural players don't petition the city government to ban backyard sports because they make the intramural players "experience feel less special" now do they?
    Honestly I do not know why bad players keep making this up. I have never in my time on these forums seen anyone write "I want to remove LFR because I feel like less of a snowflake".

    Where do you even come up with that shit? I am however seeing a ton of people like you spewing that up all the time.

    Also that allusion is terrible, as what people are complaining about is that players that player those backyard sports get to start with a 2-0 score against those who does not, which makes it almost a necessity for any intramural player to not only run their schedued events, but also spend more time in the backyard sports than those that also do it. What players are asking for is the make those backyard sports into backyard sports, and not a requirement to play intramural.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #414
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Honestly I do not know why bad players keep making this up. I have never in my time on these forums seen anyone write "I want to remove LFR because I feel like less of a snowflake".

    Where do you even come up with that shit? I am however seeing a ton of people like you spewing that up all the time.

    Also that allusion is terrible, as what people are complaining about is that players that player those backyard sports get to start with a 2-0 score against those who does not, which makes it almost a necessity for any intramural player to not only run their schedued events, but also spend more time in the backyard sports than those that also do it. What players are asking for is the make those backyard sports into backyard sports, and not a requirement to play intramural.
    I see it all the time. It's called the "Why does LFR have to award gear" threads.

    Doesn't change the fact I think we can all agree LFR is way too easy and is more or less a vending machine for epics right now.
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  15. #415
    Really? I did not know that at all.

  16. #416
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Honestly I do not know why bad players keep making this up. I have never in my time on these forums seen anyone write "I want to remove LFR because I feel like less of a snowflake".

    Where do you even come up with that shit? I am however seeing a ton of people like you spewing that up all the time.
    'bad players' :')

    Anyway, are we even reading the same forum?
    No, nobody will say that 'I want to remove LFR because I feel like less of a snowflake'.
    But they will argue that LFR has to be removed and make up some dumb arguments to hide that.

  17. #417
    I killed Garrosh last night, and honestly, I thought it was an epic fight, well worthy of the end of an expansion, much preferred over the previous tiers.

    Was also the nicest group I've ever been in in LFR, people listened, asked questions, improved massively every time, apart from one guy who left after the first wipe with a "fucking noobs", yeah, tell us all how we are massive noobs to a fight that was released HOURS AGO...what I find funny, is the shit people are the ones that leave after one wipe, it took us 6 wipes, thank god, because if we one shot Garrosh...that would be too far.

    I might return to "real" raiding once again next expansion after a one and a half expansion break from high end, I've found LFR to be okay, it needs improvement, but the thing that ruins it the most, is people, peoples attitudes, peoples attitudes in WoW in general are toxic, it's not a friendly game for new players.

    OT: This thread is almost pointless right now, if 2% had killed Garrosh in 6 months time then yeah sure, but it's barely been out for the core playerbase of LFR and Flex.

    Give it a month or two and most people who put effort into raiding and their chars currently running flex/lfr will be killing him on normal.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    'bad players' :')

    Anyway, are we even reading the same forum?
    No, nobody will say that 'I want to remove LFR because I feel like less of a snowflake'.
    But they will argue that LFR has to be removed and make up some dumb arguments to hide that.
    So you're a mindreader/armchair psychologist, or how else do you know what people are hiding?

    The fact is that getting to see the actual bosses in-game and not just in a youtube video was a big part of the reason I got into raiding in a serious way in TBC, instead of just farming Badges of Justice and Honor for gear. And I doubt I'm the only player who thought that was. Low level raiding guilds like the ones are started out in are kinda reliant on those players to start with. So without that motivation, those guilds do take a bit of a hit. Which in turn does affect the hardcore guilds because they often get the players who start out in lower guilds and move up.

    While LFR has clear benefits to people who can't meet a fixed schedule, or gosh darn it, aren't very good at video games, it does have something of a negative impact on the harder difficulty settings.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    While LFR has clear benefits to people who can't meet a fixed schedule, or gosh darn it, aren't very good at video games, it does have something of a negative impact on the harder difficulty settings.
    What negative impact does LFR have on the harder difficulty settings?

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    What negative impact does LFR have on the harder difficulty settings?
    Did you not read the rest of my post? People like myself who initially join a raiding guild to get to see the inside of raids and the bosses contained within in now have no such incentive, because of LFR.

    Also because LFR promotes the idea that "success is inevitable if we keep wiping long enough", there's less incentive for players to figure out how to get better on their own. Again depriving raiding guilds of a decent talent pool to recruit from. Back in TBC even heroic 5 mans required a basic understanding of cc and agro mechanics.

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