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  1. #421
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Did you not read the rest of my post? People like myself who initially join a raiding guild to get to see the inside of raids and the bosses contained within in now have no such incentive, because of LFR.

    Also because LFR promotes the idea that "success is inevitable if we keep wiping long enough", there's less incentive for players to figure out how to get better on their own. Again depriving raiding guilds of a decent talent pool to recruit from. Back in TBC even heroic 5 mans required a basic understanding of cc and agro mechanics.
    In other words, players don't have to put up with "proper" raiding if want to see the bosses. (Elitists raiders, ego driven raid leaders, loot systems, turning up on time every week etc can all be bypassed with LFR)

    This reduces the amount of people who are "motivated" to raid.

    I'm struggling to see how that is a bad thing though.
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  2. #422
    Herald of the Titans Puffler's Avatar
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    You can't do normal modes unless you have cleared ToT heroic !!!

    I find it is too hard to get into a good guild if you have no raided for awhile.
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  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    In other words, players don't have to put up with "proper" raiding if want to see the bosses. (Elitists raiders, ego driven raid leaders, loot systems, turning up on time every week etc can all be bypassed with LFR)

    This reduces the amount of people who are "motivated" to raid.

    I'm struggling to see how that is a bad thing though.
    My thoughts exactly and since LFR pays for the production of the more difficult raids I would say that these downsides are a small price to pay.

  4. #424
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    You can't do normal modes unless you have cleared ToT heroic !!!

    I find it is too hard to get into a good guild if you have no raided for awhile.
    Uuuh what? If this is your opinion - you're completely wrong. If you're saying that good guilds ask for people to have completed ToT heroic before recruiting them for their current SoO normal progress - also wrong.
    It definitely is harder to get into a guild when u've been out of the flow of things, but there are plenty out there. I personally value experience very highly, even if the players haven't raided in a while. Half our current raid team was like that when I recruited them and we're having a blast now.

  5. #425
    Herald of the Titans Puffler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Uuuh what? If this is your opinion - you're completely wrong. If you're saying that good guilds ask for people to have completed ToT heroic before recruiting them for their current SoO normal progress - also wrong.
    It definitely is harder to get into a guild when u've been out of the flow of things, but there are plenty out there. I personally value experience very highly, even if the players haven't raided in a while. Half our current raid team was like that when I recruited them and we're having a blast now.
    On ravencrest its not an opinion, its a fact, you need atleast 540 ilvl to get into any decent guild.
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  6. #426
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    On ravencrest its not an opinion, its a fact, you need atleast 540 ilvl to get into any decent guild.
    That's an unfortunate circumstance then, sorry to hear that.
    I lead a "casual raiding guild", if you will, on Chamber of Aspects. We have 2 10 man teams atm, and when recruiting I don't look at ilvl so much as I look at the person, their maturity and their capability/experience in the game. Gear can be gotten very quickly and easily, with Flex etc, and people can be fully decked in 553 gear and still suck monkey balls, we've all seen it plenty of times.

    Totally OT tho, so back to the topic at hand:
    I don't know why this is still going on. Let's come back and look at the numbers in a few months, I dare say that completion rates for SoO will be FAR higher than they were for any previous final tier, even without LFR.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    On ravencrest its not an opinion, its a fact, you need atleast 540 ilvl to get into any decent guild.
    Make your own? Too hard? Dont' complain how others do it then.
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  8. #428
    Herald of the Titans Puffler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Make your own? Too hard? Dont' complain how others do it then.
    I have no desire to raid anymore, i am simply point out people are too critical when people want to join guilds.
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  9. #429
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    I have no desire to raid anymore, i am simply point out people are too critical when people want to join guilds.
    Well many guilds tend to put up a sort of firewall of "you need x to apply", especially when they have a good reputation and many want to get in to be carried. Many guilds don't want to have to gear you up until you're ready to help them at their actual progress, and they're absolutely legitimized in doing that.
    There are plenty of guilds that don't do that, i call them "feeder guilds", that will take people regardless, they will often struggle to kill much, but it's enough to get people some gear and have some fun. Many leave these low-end raiding guilds for the more progress oriented later on. That's the way of things.

  10. #430
    Herald of the Titans Puffler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Well many guilds tend to put up a sort of firewall of "you need x to apply", especially when they have a good reputation and many want to get in to be carried. Many guilds don't want to have to gear you up until you're ready to help them at their actual progress, and they're absolutely legitimized in doing that.
    There are plenty of guilds that don't do that, i call them "feeder guilds", that will take people regardless, they will often struggle to kill much, but it's enough to get people some gear and have some fun. Many leave these low-end raiding guilds for the more progress oriented later on. That's the way of things.
    Yeah i understand that, but i think its the reason so few people get to experience end game is the good guilds (i'm not even talking heroic level here) don't give people a chance, some of the best raiders we got in tbc were in Kara while we were in black temple
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  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    Yeah i understand that, but i think its the reason so few people get to experience end game is the good guilds (i'm not even talking heroic level here) don't give people a chance, some of the best raiders we got in tbc were in Kara while we were in black temple
    If 5 people out of 100 are the good ones, it gets tiring fast. So those walls are placed to weed out the not wanted ones even if this means they lose one or two good ones.
    Some good guilds also have casual/not raider rank and this is practice which should be widely used. Those long-time raiders who took a break can join as a casual and then prove they indeed have skills to raid. Everyone wins and having officer(s) to weed out those who don't "fit in", be it age or other reason, also helps.
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  12. #432
    I'm under the impression that the bigger part of the player base isn't really dying to raid, and would rather go without the whole organisation, application and handcuffing thing. The only reason why LFR is popular is because Blizzard isn't offering any other content that contains any kind of meaningful character progression.

  13. #433
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    I'm under the impression that the bigger part of the player base isn't really dying to raid, and would rather go without the whole organisation, application and handcuffing thing. The only reason why LFR is popular is because Blizzard isn't offering any other content that contains any kind of meaningful character progression.
    Pretty much. Which is also why LFR is a cesspit, because people don't really want to do all the things that raiding entails, but it's the only way to have real progression, hence they use LFR. If there were Nightmare Dungeons or Challenge Modes that dropped gear or the like, raiding would be lower because a lot of people don't want to bother.
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  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Pretty much. Which is also why LFR is a cesspit, because people don't really want to do all the things that raiding entails, but it's the only way to have real progression, hence they use LFR. If there were Nightmare Dungeons or Challenge Modes that dropped gear or the like, raiding would be lower because a lot of people don't want to bother.
    I do think that games that attempted to make smaller dungeons into endgame such as Neverwinter has shown very well that it is an extremely unsuccesful game design. It just does not keep players playing long enough. Sure it is fun and all when you are doing it, but it would require putting out content way to fast for it to be feasible as players get tired of it faster than raiding content.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    Yeah i understand that, but i think its the reason so few people get to experience end game is the good guilds (i'm not even talking heroic level here) don't give people a chance, some of the best raiders we got in tbc were in Kara while we were in black temple
    If there are multiple levels of difficulty, most players and groups will be playing at or near the limits of their competence. It's the Peter Principle. So, they don't have the slack to carry people less competent than themselves. For the good guilds, which by definition are not near the peak of the customer distribution, most players, or even most raiders, will not measure up.

    Provide some motivation for the good guilds to incorporate lesser players, and they won't be motivated to be so exclusive. As it stands, the game design works against inclusion. This is not the fault of the guilds, it's a consequence of the design.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-10-24 at 03:25 PM.
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  16. #436
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutnbrg View Post
    Cant believe Im 1 of the 2%, I woulda thought tons more would have killed him already. Im not even in a raiding guild, I pugged it...
    that is not hard to believe with some of the hard core high pop servers.
    however players that just go out and pug it are half the problem why guilds are NOT completing it.





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  17. #437
    Though, honestly. What is the point of this thread? Is it a problem? It is in blizzards design plan that players kill Garrosh later, as it keep people subbed longer. Would you like to have seen 80% killed it by now or what?

    It is in blizzards and everyone in this games best interest that as few people as possible kill Garrosh this early, but that as many people as possible kill it before the end of the expansion. If numbers would be 2% in a month, it would be troubling, but as long as the numbers are higher towards the end of the expansion everything is fine.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    If there were Nightmare Dungeons or Challenge Modes that dropped gear or the like, raiding would be lower because a lot of people don't want to bother.
    Why would challenging dungeons entice people that raiding wouldnt? They would both be upper tier content
    The number of people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Provide some motivation for the good guilds to incorporate lesser players, and they won't be motivated to be so exclusive.
    lesser players = lesser guild/progression
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  19. #439
    Pandaren Monk Of-the-horde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by m777 View Post
    why the hell give a shit about pandas and their nobody boss with no lore or any connection to world of warcraft PVP has more lore and that why i do since MOP

    Infracted.
    Because Pandas are kawaii

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    Yes I have but we are obviously talking about normal, are we not? You said Blackfuse, Paragons and Thok are all harder than Garrosh and that's where you're completely wrong. Hence all the normal Garrosh help threads on the Raid and Dungeons section and lack of Blackfuse, Paragons and Thok normal help threads.
    When disgussing hard fights, always assume one is talking about heroic.

    Even Garrosh normal is a gear check though. It's harder than Siegecrafter though, but if you were at the very low end gear threshold of beating Klaxxi, you would have a harder time compared to fighting Garrosh at the lowest threshold. Definitely.

    Anyways, when talking about end bosses, you have to compare hardest difficulty against hardest difficulty, otherwise you can't talk about something being hard compared to something else. Isn't that common sense?
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