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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I really don't think FGS #4 spam counts. :P I'm frankly surprised that hasn't been adjusted yet as many people consider it an exploit.
    Do you just arbitrarily call any high damage spell you don't understand an exploit?
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  2. #42
    Oh karizee, the denigrating tone again?

    Let's do a quick test to show how knowledgeable you are:
    1. What is the highest DPS (not damage, read carefully) skill out there?(aside from FGS and similar skills)
    2. What is it's DPS?
    3. What is the 2nd highest DPS skill out there?
    4. What is it's DPS?
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  3. #43
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    You keep trying to count this up like you are running dps meters on WoW, that's not how combat in this game works. It depends on the sum total of the party and what each member brings.

    For instance, if a thief blasts a combo field for weakness or a necromancer uses a leap finisher for vulnerability, you cannot attribute the next spell cast by an elementalist to the elementalist alone.

    Just stahp.
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  4. #44
    Lol, keep trying to weasel out of it, just admit that you don't have a fucking clue.

    And no a skill's DPS doesn't depend on the total of the party, it's the exact opposite. You talk about high damaging spells, so I ask you to name the highest damaging spell and its DPS, then we can compare it to FGS rush trick and figure out if this shit is normal or not...

    I'll toss out some numbers for you:
    FGS rush trick does 190k DPS

    However the highest DPS skill is Timewarp.
    I admit it's a bit sneaky to go with it that way but I would've also accepted lava font at 35k DPS.

    Do you see how ridiculous this trick is? It does 5.5 times the damage of the second highest DPS skill (which does 1.5* the damage of the third)
    People think HB does a lot of DPS, well that does 14K DPS, FGS rush does 13.5* as much damage.

    This is clearly broken...
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  5. #45
    I am Murloc! Xuvial's Avatar
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    Any "trail" ability can be channeled into a wall to have it stack like 50 times, e.g. Staff fire #4 can do something similar. It's just that FGS rush ticks for quite a lot.

  6. #46
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    just admit that you don't have a fucking clue.
    This from the person saying go Warrior or gtfo when it was clearly proven that Thieves, Elementalists, Mesmers, Guardians and Engineers all do more damage than Warriors
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  7. #47
    No, I tell all pugs to go war or GTFO, read my posts more carefully.

    Also thieves don't outdamage warriors in practice, only in theory.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    An exploit, tsss 200k dmg on a 10s CD is perfectly balanced!
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Lol, keep trying to weasel out of it, just admit that you don't have a fucking clue.

    And no a skill's DPS doesn't depend on the total of the party, it's the exact opposite. You talk about high damaging spells, so I ask you to name the highest damaging spell and its DPS, then we can compare it to FGS rush trick and figure out if this shit is normal or not...

    I'll toss out some numbers for you:
    FGS rush trick does 190k DPS

    However the highest DPS skill is Timewarp.
    I admit it's a bit sneaky to go with it that way but I would've also accepted lava font at 35k DPS.

    Do you see how ridiculous this trick is? It does 5.5 times the damage of the second highest DPS skill (which does 1.5* the damage of the third)
    People think HB does a lot of DPS, well that does 14K DPS, FGS rush does 13.5* as much damage.

    This is clearly broken...
    Which is it, 200k/10s (20k dps) or 190k dps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  9. #49
    Read, I said 200k DAMAGE and 190K DAMAGE PER SECOND.

    CD has nothing to do with DPS btw, DPS = DAMAGE / CAST TIME and not COOL DOWN.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuvial View Post
    Any "trail" ability can be channeled into a wall to have it stack like 50 times, e.g. Staff fire #4 can do something similar. It's just that FGS rush ticks for quite a lot.
    This is true, however this doesn't mean it's not broken. For comparison, Norn Bear rush "only" does 80K damage, but it's channel is a lot longer, making it's DPS around 50K, which is a lot but reasonable (note that this is if you precast bear so you don't lose time transforming into it, only out of it).

    It's also a bit weird that FGS's trail has 50% more ticks than any other trail ability.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xuvial View Post
    Any "trail" ability can be channeled into a wall to have it stack like 50 times, e.g. Staff fire #4 can do something similar. It's just that FGS rush ticks for quite a lot.
    Pfft, walls are for sissies. Use blink!
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Read, I said 200k DAMAGE and 190K DAMAGE PER SECOND.

    CD has nothing to do with DPS btw, DPS = DAMAGE / CAST TIME and not COOL DOWN.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is true, however this doesn't mean it's not broken. For comparison, Norn Bear rush "only" does 80K damage, but it's channel is a lot longer, making it's DPS around 50K, which is a lot but reasonable (note that this is if you precast bear so you don't lose time transforming into it, only out of it).

    It's also a bit weird that FGS's trail has 50% more ticks than any other trail ability.
    Actually, cooldown has an impact on (steady-state) dps, while cast time is only for instantaneous/burst dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  12. #52
    I have no clue why I bother, if you don't understand the very simple mathematics behind calculating DPS of a skill...

    By your logic, auto attack has infinite DPS...

    http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/...late+%2Bdamage

    Read that, then come back here and think about what you said.
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2014-01-30 at 05:58 PM.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  13. #53
    Really? You're going to go that route? How about instead of insulting people who point something out, you actually, you know, have a civil discussion?

    DPS = damage per second. For instantaneous dps, that's going to simply be damage of skill / cast time.

    But, for skills that have cooldowns (which is pretty much everything except your 1 abilities), the cooldown of the skill is going to affect the (maximum) steady-state (average) dps of the skill (but is really only applicable if you're using the skill on cooldown). In that case, the damage is going to be (damage)/(cooldown). It's really not that complicated.

    TL;DR: A skill can have a high instantaneous dps, but be balanced around the average dps by the cooldown. (It's the exact same comparison between damage vs (instantaneous) dps)
    Last edited by rhandric; 2014-01-30 at 06:04 PM. Reason: miswrote one equation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  14. #54
    And it doesn't matter if it's burst or static damage.

    What does more DPS, HB or axe auto attack?
    answer :=> HB

    The difference is that you only use HB once every 10s so the remaining 6.5s (hb has a 3.5s activation time) you're doing something else. That doesn't change the DPS of HB ONE FUCKING BIT.

    Do you know how you calculate the DPS of a class?
    You calculate the DPS of each skill, figure out how often you use each skill in the time period of the skill with the longest CD (or weaponswap or both) add it all up and then divide by the CD.

    Seriously, read the link I posted.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  15. #55
    You realize that you're arguing exactly what I'm saying, right?

    And no, auto-attack wouldn't have infinite dps, even with how I'm calculating things. I guess I should've more accurately stated it as:

    steady state dps = damage / max(cooldown, cast time)

    - - - Updated - - -

    My entire point has been that, in the absence of talking about a discrete rotation, discussion of the dps/balance of a skill has to include the steady-state (which is affected by cooldown) for any sort of comparison between skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  16. #56
    Which is wrong since according to your logic it's more beneficial to use axe auto attack (war) than HB in any and all situations since Axe auto would do something like 56k damage / 3.6s (cast time=cd)=> 15494DPS
    and HB would do 49k damage / 10s(cd) => 4900DPS

    Unless you mean 15494/3.6s(cast time = cd) => 4304dps/s
    and 4900/3.5s (cast time) => 1400dps/s

    The give away here are the units, what you're doing makes it become DAMAGE/SECOND/SECOND != DAMAGE/SECOND.

    That's for your old formula where you say you have to divide by DPS by CD.

    Let's take your other formula appart.
    Axe auto has a 3.6s activation time = cool down. The total damage = 55k
    => DPS = 55/3.6s = 15K
    HB has a 3.5s activationt time (which you completely ignore) and a 10s CD. The total damage = 49K
    => DPS = 49/10s = 4.9K

    Which would mean that Axe auto does (a lot) more DPS than HB, which we all know isn't true.

    Now let's use activation time instead of CD.
    Axe: 55/3.6s = 15K DPS
    HB: 49/3.5s = 14K DPS
    BAM, we get numbers that line up with reality (I took the numbers of HB/Axe using an Axe build)
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2014-01-30 at 06:43 PM.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  17. #57
    Both instantaneous and steady state dps are important metrics (I haven't said otherwise). But you can't get a full look at the balance of an ability without looking at both.

    And, you might want to check your numbers, because based on the ones you're giving, (56k/3.6s=15.56k dps for axe auto attack, 49k/3.5s = 14k instantaneous dps, 10 sec cd for HB), axe auto is better than HB, unless the target's going to die before that 3.6 seconds is over

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    BAM, we get numbers that line up with reality (I took the numbers of HB/Axe using an Axe build)
    Reading is haaaaaard.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  19. #59
    That was added after I made my comment (or more precisely, I didn't refresh before posting my comment)

    And the "old formula" was a mistake which I rectified

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  20. #60
    Ofcourse it was a mistake, that was obvious. The second formula isn't a mistake it's just useless since it doesn't reflect on anything because you can fit in down time with other skills, which would change that number again.
    Your second formula just shows if a skill is a burst skill or not, and that's not important.

    Also note that there's a reason why I added the (incredibly short) CD into my original post.
    Lastly there's this gem which is very important for context:
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Which is it, 200k/10s (20k dps) or 190k dps?
    Where you obviously do not know how to calculate the DPS of a skill...
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

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