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  1. #61
    Oh, I just don't have the numbers in front of me (damage, cast time, cooldown), so, lacking that information (and whether you were talking burst or steady state, not realizing you always talk burst), I was wondering what precisely you were talking about.

    Calculating dps is the simplest thing, ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  2. #62
    I know, hence my annoyance.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  3. #63
    It's just a difference in DPSi and DPSss, which wasn't initially clear (since I tend to think more in terms of DPSSS)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  4. #64
    I don't see the use of DPSss, hence I don't use it. My goal is to know how much DPS a toon does, the rest doesn't matter to me.

    To clarify this a bit. Frost bow (conjure) also has an insane DPS skill, Ice Storm. The long cd and lack of other damaging spells don't really matter since the weapon just becomes a use 4 and drop thing.
    Here you'll get similar results for DPSss but you can't balance around it since it's just a use and drop thing, even if it was on a 200s CD nothing would change.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  5. #65
    DPSSS is mostly important for comparing balance (which is why I brought it into the discussion in the first place). A skill that does 500k damage on a 60 second cd and a skill that does 8k dps with no cooldown are roughly balanced (8.3k dpsss vs 8k dpsss), even if the DPSI of the former is, say, 100k. You'd still use the first skill every minute.

    Of course, all of these numbers are purely made up for the sake of illustration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  6. #66
    You're looking at each skill in a vacuum which is quite shortsighted.
    Think of the Frost Bow example from above, it might be balanced with the CD, but the thing is that people just use it like NOS in a race car.

    I've done calculations similar to this in regards to optimising various classes. E.G: Is it worth it for a s/f guard to start with GS, use skills 4 and 3 and then always attack with the sword? (the answer is yes)
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  7. #67
    Except that's exactly how things are balanced, when cooldowns are used (other systems will use other methods, such as opportunity costs, but that's an entirely different discussion). A (damage) skill with a cooldown should 1) be more powerful (higher damage), 2) provide some important utility alongside it's damage, or 3) both to some degree. I.e., it needs to distinguish itself from skills without cooldowns (or, other [available] skills with a cooldown), or it might as well not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  8. #68
    While it's true that they try to do it that way occasionally, it's a lot better to balance according to casting time and set the CD that way to avoid the use and drop style of play that we now see.

    Meteor shower for instance does quite good DPS (depending on number of hits) and the reason why it takes 2s to cast is for balance. The CD helps after this has been taken into account. How often do we want the toon to be able to do X?
    Going with purely CD is nonsensical because of this and it's far easier to tune around cast time than CD.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  9. #69
    Multiple "knobs" to turn for balancing purposes. Notice how most if not all longer CD abilities also have a decent length cast time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  10. #70
    Rush, HB, WWA, Tremor, Crushing blow,...

    You seem rather mistaken on that part.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  11. #71
    Eh...I don't have the numbers in front of me, and am more familiar with Ele than other professions. Oh well.

    Anyway, we're on the same page here, even if we do see things from different angles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  12. #72
    Dreadlord Fishbait's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I really don't think FGS #4 spam counts. :P I'm frankly surprised that hasn't been adjusted yet as many people consider it an exploit.
    I don`t see it as an exploit, rather a use of mechanics. One ele out of the five pulls the mob to the wall, the rest join in.
    warriors could do exactly the same.

  13. #73
    The trick isn't the getting it to the wall, the trick is making the trail deal DPS.
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  14. #74
    Dreadlord Fishbait's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Obligatory Giganticus Lupicus 17s speed kill by 5 elementalists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngdn-PjStI8

    (check out that 33k crit on the Wraitlord woooooo!)
    Like someone else stated, that is not a seventeen second fight. Fights start from the second the mob gets pulled *or* from when the five ele start spell spamming for buffs.

    As for your claim of ele high damage, it is not the highest, by a long shot.



    Log your ele, record this & post it to your youtube channel.

  15. #75
    It is the highest DPS by a long shot.

    The war did 106k dmg on veterans, not a boss, it took 3.5s to do that damage => the DPS = 30K

    Compare that to the FGS doing 190K DPS...
    In most cases, I understand the other side's viewpoint and how they came to it, but cannot tolerate their stubbornness to not see mine (the right one).

  16. #76
    Dreadlord Fishbait's Avatar
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    Latest gw2 classes descriptions are out, quite acurate & funny to boot

    https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/foru...st#post3573807

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbait View Post
    I don`t see it as an exploit, rather a use of mechanics. One ele out of the five pulls the mob to the wall, the rest join in.
    warriors could do exactly the same.
    FGS #4 doesn't negatively effect me, so for the most part I don't care. At least I've yet to be "one-shotted" by it in WvW and in PvE it's to my benefit since things die ridiculous fast. Regardless, I have seen on both YouTube and the forums people who do consider it an exploit and both refuse to use it and refuse to recommend its use based on that.

    I will say that I do not think it is "working as intended", especially considering you're purposefully not supposed to use targeting (to the point of disabling it in options) because you don't get the same effect. Plus the fact that if FGS is an option then (in my experience) everyone is expected to use it and to only spam #4 because it greatly outdoes anything else. When you're in a dungeon with 2 elementalists and the whole group is doing the exact same thing on every boss, that says loud and clear to me that something is not right with a particular skill.

    However, as long as Anet isn't patching it then "exploit" is debatable unless they've publicly stated that it's a bug. It still doesn't change the fact that FGS should not be doing above and beyond anything any other class (and their elites) can do.
    "If you have been touched by the demon, it's like being touched by the back hand of God. Makes you sacred in a way, doesn't it? Makes you unique, with a kind of glory. The glory of suffering, even." - Penny Dreadful

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