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  1. #1

    Race Groups and How the next expansion is poised to turn the tides

    favourably for blizzard, if they make a number smart decisions. You know the RTS game worked well for the human v orc set up, every player had to play both sides because campaigns switched you between both factions. In the MMORPG, you instead got to choose, and immediately it became clear the horde had a problem. Almost everyone wanted to play alliance. Why? Because we're humans, the fantasy story tells of how the human race once again triumphs over impossible odds, because we the audience and target demographic are humans. If you've ever hung around RPGs, that allow you to play different monsters and creatures, you find out humans have been by far the most popular.

    This is fine for a single player game or even a multiplayer, however when you have two factions that you can choose, the faction with humans is always going to have a numbers advantage, creating balance issues. This is exactly what WoW has faced and it has spent the last 8 years trying to make the horde more attractive to even it out. Blizzard has been putting in a lot of effort to boost the horde

    1. More attractive racials
    2. Cooler animations/models
    3. Better storylines and plots
    4. More lore, more horde centric novels over the last 8 years
    5. Blood elves going horde to boost attractiveness
    6. Hard nerf of alliance races. biggest casualties = night elves
    7. More horde victories and cooler quests

    It's really quite evident, no wonder the top pve and pvp player guilds are horde dominated almost 10:1 and despite all that, the alliance STILL outnumbers the horde (currently 60/40%). It hasn't been enough, nor will it be..because most people identitify with humans. Most new players pick humans, monsters are all very well and all, but it's far easier to relate to a human than a half bull, or a troll. Blood elves helped a lot, finally giving the hore a human like race players could identify with, blood elf numbers are nearly twice that of the next most played horde race. Co-incidence? NO! And still human numbers a greater than Belves, despit all the less attractive things about the alliance. THe only way to fix is if both factions get humans or neither. I would opt for both

    Until humans become available on both factions, tthere wil be balance issues, all the other mo's that have a 2 faction system with humans on both sides have no such faction balance issues. Blizzard need to make living humans available on the horde. The game is paying a high price for no doing so, because developement will continue to be lopsided, alliance storyilnes possibly even the new models would be made to look less than they can be in an effort to keep horde more attractive. The solution is to have living humans playable.

    Humans Are Already On The Horde.
    Don't seem so shocked. Humans are already on the horde, they're Forsaken, and they are all undead currently, being able to play living humans on the horde will work through the forsaken and it will not destroy the human v orc core of wow-
    1. The forsaken (humans) joining the horde did not destroy this warcraft core rivarly of Orc v Human when it was introduced in WoW. (
    2. Living humans have been part of the horde before, Alterac nation teamed up with the hordei Warcraft 2, it did not destroy the orc v human

    The Best Way to introduce Playable living humans on Horde
    Is via the forsaken, not inventing a story of a breakaway group of humans, or some brainwashed cult of the damned humans or some mysterious island that suddenly appears with humans that make friends with the orcs or trolls. A human storyline is already on the horde through the forsaken, no need to coin a new one when you can use that one. they are the pre-made group of humans, you don't need to build an entrance story or build the small group up, they're already badass, already have a prominent enough roll in the horde, all you need to do is make SOME of the forsaken becoming living humans again (many ways you can write how this happens), and voila you are there. This leaves you with a Forsaken Group consisting of 3 main groups.

    1. Undead humans (largest group)
    2. Restored to living Humans (previously undead 2nd largest)
    3. Undead Elves (darkfallen)

    Over now to Mace and how this could tie into the new expansion
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-10-12 at 05:48 PM.

  2. #2

    Racial Factions - Why this Expansion is the perfect time!

    Because for the first time since the games release new models are being done. What's that got to do with any of this? How would you like to play as a Racial Faction? A what? Racial faction is a fancy name for other groups of the main races we interact with but can't quite play as atm. Some call them minor races or sub-races. e.g are High Elves, Mag'har Orc, Dark Iron dwarf, Wildhammer dwarf, Forest Troll, Half-mech gnome, Broken, Ice Troll, , Living human forsaken, darkfallen, Highbourne? Caught your attentoin?

    [Nomenclature: From now on: we'll use Race Group when referring to all the factions in a race: e.g. Dwarf is a race group, it's racial factions are Bronzebeards, wildhammers and dark irons]

    Rather than the huge time and effort it takes to do a whole new race from scratch, including designing a brand new start zone and then all the integration of the race into each faction in a newly created backstory, you're already doing new models for the races, why not add character creation options for the sub-groups? All of the above sub-groups are already in the game as races, they just look slightly different, and they all have a lot of lore basis for them.

    Mag'har orcs = normal orcs with brown skin tones instead of green, and maybe tribal features
    Dark iron dwarves = normal dwarves but with grey/black skin tones, and red iris eyes - you can add dark runes tattoos
    High Elves = Blood elf model but with no glowy eyes and eye colour options incl blue. greem. purple, pink, grey, brown
    Forest Trolls = Troll model with greater musculature and only green skin tones.
    Highbourne = can use blood elf model but with night elf skins/features/hair styles
    Tuanka = Tauren models but with Taunka faces

    The point is all of these groups don't need a completley fresh new model, drastically cutting down development time to make, so rather than your usual 2 full races or even 1 like Pandas in the last expansion, you can have 10 minor race or sub-groups as I like to call them, you can even do up to 20. This is quite exciting, I've longed to play as a Mag'har orc, High elf, wildhammer dwarf etc.

    Blizzard are introducing the models they say as they become ready. The new expansion may launch with 2 or maybe 4 completed new models and the rest given with patches, - but this allows them to really focus on the race who's model is coming in. If it's OrcsL You get Orcs, with Mag'har orcs and dragonmaw for this patch. These sub-groups can easily start in the same place as the main group - or , and especially if you're introducing them as they become ready, you can phase a starting zone of their local

    The Way To Introduce Race Factions:
    Certainly not as some anonymous "hey look, Orcs now have a brown skin option in the skin colour bar" - how disappointing when instead you can have a separate character Creation for Mag'har orc, with a range of brown skin options, different class selection options (mag'har can't be warlocks or mages for e.g.), narrative and the start zone being Nagrand

    1. Dont need to build fresh models, just adapt the new models you're doing for the races to make their racial factions.
    2. Don't need to create lore to introduce, they're already part of established groups and already established in the game, even the living human forsaken are because they were initially undead forsaken so they already have a backgorund, you're just explaining how some forsaken came fully flesh and blood alive again. And don't say
    3. Re-design character creation screen - maybe instead of one icon repsresnting ecah main race, you will have 3 , one for each sub-group - example Bronzebeard, Wildhammer, Dark iron OR, leave as is, but when you click on a race, you will then get the option to slelect the sub-group. You'd probably have to re-write the descriptions a bit - I'd re-label Forsaken as Human Forsaken, so it's clear to new players, you can roll human on the horde, on clicking on Human Forsaken they'll get the chance to make an Undead Forsaken, a living human forsaken, or a darkfallen (forsaken elf). They might need to label the first screen as Race Group instead of Races because each race now consists of 1or 2 different groups we refer to as the racial faction.
    4. Each racial faction can have a different class selection from the main race - highbourne can be warlocks, but night elves can't, Half-mech gnomes hunters, Mag'har orcs cannot be mages etc.
    5. Each racial faction can have slightly differen racials, - you won't give highelves the same kind of arcane torrent as blood elves, you might swap it for high elf version of the naaru racial or give them shadowmeld.
    6. Starting Narrative - you'll have to do a narrative for each to explain why the hero or the faction or part of the faction (depending on which group) is joining the struggle with his main group.
    7. Phased starting zone. This is probably the only bit that requires work, and it's not essential to have, but it would be good. Each of these minor groups does have an existing area in wow already they are local too, Blizzard could let them all start with the main race of the race-group (mag'har orcs start with all other orcs in durotar) or phase their homezone for a level 1-6 or 1-12 - I'd just phase level 1-6

    Advantages of Sub-groups

    1. It's great to have more racial options. 10 or even 20 new groups instead of just 2 new races never to see development after that expansion
    2. It's also easier to develop than a full race, allowing more time to be given to the lore
    3. Their introduction swings focus back to the existing race because all of them are factions of existing races, e.g. wildhammer and dark iron dwarves are factions of dwarves. High elves and blood elves are factions of the same race although one is on the alliance and the other is on the horde.
    4. the ideal vehicle for living forsaken humans to be playable - living forsaken humans (as oopposed to the undea d ones) are perfect for a sub grop, being forsaken already you don't need any big story tale entrance, you just write the story to explain how some of htem managed to get healed and become living flesh again. They are one of 10 or 20 sub-groups introducesd.
    5. Forsaken humans has the potential to fix the balance issues that have literally kept racials unequal, kept allaince races rather stale in the story and always playing zeond fiddle, will finally allow a balanced story to progress like it did in the RTS - and they only make sense to introduce as one of many sub-groups

  3. #3
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Um.... I don't even..... what is this?

    Are you both the same person.... or are you like.... guildmates or something? Can we get a TL;DR?

    I think this has to do with putting Humans on the Horde, which is the last thing that'll ever happen in the game....
    Sometimes I think I should have rolled a Priest....


  4. #4
    I will never understand why people would play human in a fantasy world with eerie undead, imposing Tauren or big-shouldered Night Elves, if not for the pvp racial. Especially with their current ugly male model.

  5. #5
    Scarab Lord Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Um.... I don't even..... what is this?

    Are you both the same person.... or are you like.... guildmates or something? Can we get a TL;DR?

    I think this has to do with putting Humans on the Horde, which is the last thing that'll ever happen in the game....
    Haha thought the same, their avatar looked the same, except the picture =P
    » Active MMO-Champion visitor since: 12-12-2012 «
    » Predict Warlords of Draenor to sell 3 Million copies at first day «

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    no king rules forever, but WoW is a stubborn bastard.

  6. #6
    I'd like to thank in particular Mace for teaming up to write this with me, and would like to thank Rumaya2000, Talen, Stormdash, Cmats4020, Combat , DecideUH whose extensive discussion in http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-general/page9 onwards on the possibility of playable High elves contributed largely in fleshing out, what had been a rough sketch hunch into a much better thought out presentation. I must say if it wasn't for the going back and forth, I may not have been able to come up with as manypoints or provide the details above with such brevity. I ohpe I haven't written too much, sometiems its better to write less initially and expand in explanations further along the discusssion.

    Thanks though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jabulaniman View Post
    I will never understand why people would play human in a fantasy world with eerie undead, imposing Tauren or big-shouldered Night Elves, if not for the pvp racial. Especially with their current ugly male model.
    because many people imagine themselves being the hero in a world of monsters, exotic beauties, beings with unfathomable power. Some people are really happy with themselves, others are not.

    One thing is for sure, the male model hasn't deterred people from picking human much
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-10-12 at 06:44 PM.

  7. #7
    If you want "balance" though, numbers aren't the only thing to take into consideration. On my server, I think the Alliance does outnumber the Horde, like you said. However, in any place those numbers are relevant (World PvP), it doesn't matter, because the few people that are on the Horde are way better PvPers. The only time the Alliance wins anything on my server is when the Horde aren't there.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Um.... I don't even..... what is this?

    Are you both the same person.... or are you like.... guildmates or something? Can we get a TL;DR?

    I think this has to do with putting Humans on the Horde, which is the last thing that'll ever happen in the game....
    Curious to see why you think so, especially since humans are already in the horde -- (read paragraph 2) - the forsaken are humans, albeit undead humans, you want some of them living though so people can play as a living human on the horde.

    Humans have occassional joined the horde too, in warcraft 2, the nation of Alterac joined the horde. It's really not as far fetched as it seems at first sight and I think this game badly needs it.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Haha thought the same, their avatar looked the same, except the picture =P
    we're secret gay lovers, our girlfriends have no idea.
    Last edited by Mace; 2013-10-13 at 02:59 PM.

  10. #10
    I feel like your arguments are fundamentally flawed, since Elves were more popular than humans up until Every man for himself made being human a PvP advantage.

    Also, why would the Forsaken want to be human again? (Read, give up being unaging and resistant to many forms of harm, disease, etc) Unless they are disgusted with being undead, in which case if a way to turn human again was created, they would clearly turn human and then go join the Alliance, not turn human and then stay with the undead they are disgusted by.

    Especially since most new Forsaken are people who were killed BY the Forsaken and then risen.
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it. -Boubouille

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    If you want "balance" though, numbers aren't the only thing to take into consideration. On my server, I think the Alliance does outnumber the Horde, like you said. However, in any place those numbers are relevant (World PvP), it doesn't matter, because the few people that are on the Horde are way better PvPers. The only time the Alliance wins anything on my server is when the Horde aren't there.
    Part of my point is that blizzard really do care about playeers having even interest in the sides. Even numbers make for a better experience, makes pvp work well, pvE etc, massive problems when one side dominates the other 2:!, 3:1 and sometimes even 10:1 - which happeend i pre-tbc days on alliance.

    The focus of the game has been aggressively pro-horde in an attempt to amke the faction more attractive so more people will play. It was the main reason blood elves got introduced as a horde race, it's the reason why the cooler stories and quests have appeared on the horde, Thrall becoming the green Messiah, the better pvp racials. Blizzard feel that without these incentives not enough would pick the horde, and good gaming environment is best served with even sides.

    The problem is despite all this, alliance still out-numbers horde...and humans are the reason. Firstly cos that's our race, and most people identify with humans first, often they'll try another after being in the universe for a while or if they started with the RTs, they were forced to play through a story on both factions and would be more inclined to choose another race, but most warcraft players came in with wow...even with the ugly model, they still pick it.

    Sure the racials have skewed vast majority of the top PvEers and Pvpers horde, and despite that they're still out-numbered. Sure some realms have horde outnumbe alliance , largely too, but thse almost always pvp realms. Sure cross realm zones, x-realm bgs, x-realm LFR/LFG/Arena helps mitigate feeling the bite of the number gap, but it's still there.

    ANy faction without humans is at a disadvantage, you will fix all this by having human models accessible to both factions. The horde is already set up for a live human group - it's not unprecedented (aka Alterac in WC2) and truth be told, the Forsaken are humans, so you dn't need a wild story for how some group decided to up and join the horde, you just make it such that some undead forsaken, maybe half of them got turned back to flesh ( many stories you can use - titan tech, magical waters in panderia/hyjal, experimenting alchemist, or wizard or priest, Cenarius and the druids, take your pick) - but make it happens.

    You'd love the rewards.
    Better population spread
    An even story
    no more need to nerf alliance races in the story and quests
    no need to remove racials, you can now balance them evenly
    you won't have a problem with high elves being playable on the alliance nor other groups like mag'har orcs and darkiron etc being selectable options - cos you wouldn't present human forsaken by themselves, you'd be smarter to showcase them amongst several racial factions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I feel like your arguments are fundamentally flawed, since Elves were more popular than humans up until Every man for himself made being human a PvP advantage.

    Also, why would the Forsaken want to be human again? (Read, give up being unaging and resistant to many forms of harm, disease, etc) Unless they are disgusted with being undead, in which case if a way to turn human again was created, they would clearly turn human and then go join the Alliance, not turn human and then stay with the undead they are disgusted by.

    Especially since most new Forsaken are people who were killed BY the Forsaken and then risen.
    they weren't, Blood elves were nearly twice the number of the next played horde race, and this is despite the really good Orc and Troll racials.

    furthermore, humans have always, lead the game as the most played race, and on the alliance have led by a fair margin over the next most popular alliance race, the night elves. THis was both before and after everyman for himself. A racial that largely only is a concern for the hardcore ratings driven pvper
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-10-12 at 06:47 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    they weren't

    furthermore, humans have always, lead the game as the most played race, and on the alliance have led by a fair margin over the next most popular alliance race, the night elves. THis was both before and after everyman for himself. A racial that largely only is a concern for the hardcore ratings driven pvper
    Do you have a source for this?
    I'm like 90% sure that Night Elves and Forsaken significantly outnumbered Humans in Vanilla.
    And that Night Elves and Blood Elves outnumbered humans in Burning Crusade.
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it. -Boubouille

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I think this has to do with putting Humans on the Horde, which is the last thing that'll ever happen in the game....
    people said the same thing about high elves, and they were put on the horde, they also said the same thing about night elves using magic again, and the highbourne returning - what was I accused of back then? the heights of fan wishing.

    when there is a good and needed reason for it to be, don't be surprise if it becomes, especial when you can make a great story out of it and boost profits.

    Can you imagine the expansion interest being able to play 10 new racial mini-factions would bring? not to mention the killing you'd make from race changes to the new model or to the minor race you want to play as?

  14. #14
    Here is a potential full list of each Race Group and their proposed playable Racial factions: N.B I've tried to have 3 per group, but nothing says it has to be even.

    Orc Group: Orc, Mag'har Orc, Dragonmaw Orc
    Forsaken Group: Undead human, Living Human, Darkfallen (undead Elf)
    Troll Group: Darkspear Jungle Troll, Forest Troll, Ice Troll
    Tauren Group: Tauren, Grim-totem Tauren, Taunka
    Blood Elf Group: Blood Elf, San'layan, Darkfallen
    Goblin: Kezan Goblin, Coal Goblin, Gilgoblin

    Human Group: Stormwind Human, Half Elf, High Elf or Vrykul (possibly)
    Dwarf Group: Bronzebeard, Wildhammer, Dark Iron
    Night Elf Group: Night Elf, Highbourne, High Elf
    Gnome Group: Gnome, Leper Gnome, Half-mecha Gnome
    Draenei Group: Draenei, Broken, Eredar
    Worgen - Worgen, Bloodfang Worgen - worgen are already 2 races anyway

    No racial factions for Panderan, they remain as is. As you can see, we have 20 viable racial factions to add. All already exist in the game, although we'll have to tell how some of the undead forsaken became living again, and how some gnomes managed to become a fusion of part mechagnome/part gnome. The rest are all there, nearly all have explanations as to why they're part of the faction - others it can be stated (gilgoblins, san'layan), others might need a little bit more explanation (Eredar, San'layan, Grim-totem). Saying that, not all those choices need appear with the new models, or need appear at all.

    Some would be really nice to have their own phased starting zone (Mag'har in nagrand, dark irons in BRD, high elves maybe in Crystalsong forest northrend etc)some will have no problem starting in the main race's zone (Highbourne, human forsaken, leper gnome, half elf, Broken)

  15. #15
    Does anybody still play alliance ? It's like 10:1 in favor of horde on our server. I thought alliance was npc faction tbh.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    people said the same thing about high elves, and they were put on the horde,
    High Elves have been in the Alliance since WoW started.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Do you have a source for this?
    I'm like 90% sure that Night Elves and Forsaken significantly outnumbered Humans in Vanilla.
    And that Night Elves and Blood Elves outnumbered humans in Burning Crusade.
    Night elves were very popular when wow kicked off, as were forsaken on the horde. Their numbers though were dwarfed by human. I can see why NElves were nerfed so hard, they were too popular and not even the alliances main race.

    why didn't the same fate happen to blood elves? because blood elves doubled and in some cases tripled the number of players for the horde, that was the intention. Alliance had to be made less attractive, and while you ocoudln't rubbish the faction, you couldtake a lot of the glint out, the unfortunate victims were the night elves. saying that that, it's noot as if blood elves got much attention after TBC, and whyshould they have, theyalready attracted a lot of payres for the horde, orc/troll numbers, tauren too were too low, especially orcs the main antagonist and leading race of the horde, so a lot of focus was pushed to that.

    I did a lot of number checking through out the years on wow. Did you know that shaman were the most played class on any faction for much of the first year of release. Rogues were the horde's second most played class, and the alliance most played class. Shortly after the first battleground WSG was released, warriors rose to promeinence, and by the time TBC launched they were the most popular class. They were over-taken by blood elf hunters shortly after TBC though, many of which were male and may have had some variation of Legolas .

    Druids were the least played class by the end of classic, and were in the bottom 3 for most of classic, Warlocks stayed rock bottom on alliance till they started seriously buffing them, where they rose mid way on the horde side, butonly managed to rise above druids towards the end. Shadow priests were the most played class/spec combo at one point and a year into the game, took over from shaman as the overpowered clas.

    Paladin quickly overtook shaman on the horde the first month they became playable on horde side TBC, but shaman on alliance were less played than even druids. Most of the new Dranei toons were Shaman. Most of the blood elf toons were hunters first, then paladins, then mage.

    Since Cataclysm, druids have alternated between 2nd, 3rd and 4th most played class on both factions, often in number 2 or 3, Usually just behind Hunters and Paladins. Warlocks are Mist of Panderia's most played class or rather have had the greatest increase in numbers played.

    There is a fan based site that gathrs realm population info based on players, at wrcraftrealms, have a look.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by arcaneshot View Post
    High Elves have been in the Alliance since WoW started.
    the race has been on the horde as blood elves. You do realize high elves and blood elves are factions of the same race. I can't see high elves being playable on the alliance till something ike living humans being available on the horde, because of the numbers, nothing short of humans on the horde would make up for the possible losses to the horde playable high elves would cause.

    Anyway it also seems fair, if a racial faction of a horde group becomes accessible by alliance, the reverse must also occur. The good thing about high elves and forsaken humans is that they are already part of their respective factions, so players shouldn't find it odd that blood elves are on the alliance as high elves or humans on the horde as forsaken, because these groups are arleady there.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Does anybody still play alliance ? It's like 10:1 in favor of horde on our server. I thought alliance was npc faction tbh.
    oh yes, what you're witnessing is one of the horrible side effects of faction imbalance that all the horde driving hasn't fixed.

    The hardcore circuit is dominated with horde, so the environments you play in, end-game in particular incl rated bgs, Bgs, areans etc, LFG in general are far more active on the horde side than the alliance, you'd notice it. Most of the alliance players are either just levelling or using LFR/G tool to play and not heading for heroic modes unless they have a guild. In frustration, espeically on the older realms, most would have either faction changed or transferred off, leaving the old pvp realm lragely horde active at end game.

    Your alliance population would be in the lower levels and in the non-competitive portions of the game. Shame, to attract you to play horde, the racials are better, the story is better, the animations cooler, and it still isn't enough - how much more will they nerf the allinace before realizing that the issue lies with humans, we need living humans playable on both sides cos that's what most people go for, and as long as that happens alliance will continue to have more players overall, which will in turn force you to develop the horde much further, keep the racials imbalanced etc etc etc, likelly ruin the experience for the long term fans who I think prefer a well told tale from both sides, than to always a bit too easily winning.

    it's why I think alliance fancs are really angry, but not at the horde, they're angry at blizzard on account of the horde, whiles horde fans are no where near that bothered about the alliance, and are actually pretty cool about the alliance.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-10-12 at 08:04 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Does anybody still play alliance ? It's like 10:1 in favor of horde on our server. I thought alliance was npc faction tbh.
    yes, end game is dominated by horde - better racials, higher confidence, most of the alliance are lower levels, I have feeling hwhen they hit end game, they don't stick around much and either re-roll or change to horde or transfer - a few to hang out tho and learn the end game, then become frustrated.

    The imbalance is at the heart of many issues and many changes that happen.

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