View Poll Results: Do you like any of these ideas?

Voters
143. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes.

    28 19.58%
  • No.

    73 51.05%
  • Most of them, but not everything.

    22 15.38%
  • I like a few of them, but mostly nothing.

    20 13.99%
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
... LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    If rogues didn't have poisosn, bleeds, or slice and dice - they would be in a very bad position. To me, that just proves that the base of our damage is dull and boring. My proposed system, is that we actually DO loose some those abilities per specialisation, but not the damage. WTF I hear you say? Well hear me out. This is not intended to be a damage nerf! Im going to replace them with more interesting alternatives.

    What if:

    Only assassinations rogues had lethal poison? All rogues have non lethal poison snchants as options.

    Only subtlety rogues had bleeds, that were not necessarily finishing moves? No more combat rupture or must use rupture for venomous wounds

    Only combat had slice and dice, but instead of it granting attack speed, it gave additional attack strikes? Possibly giving these strikes increased chances to deflect incoming attacks.
    Replace increased attack speed with chance to strike twice, like the old sword specialisation.

    For combat rogues:

    - Being abe to reflect / deflect / disarm incoming attacks and this becoming the "niche" for them, especially in pvp. Combat rogues should be difficult to hit, and then they should utilise your momentum against you in a "ninja-ish" martial arty way.
    - New Mechanical enchants for combat instead of poisons, such as sharpening stones, serratted blades, counterweights, weapon oil, weapon traps (hooks either side of the hilt, to disarm on a parry) ect.
    These proc events such as striking twice, ignoring armour, disarming opponents, applying group debuffs, absorbing spell damage ect.
    I love the idea of some kind of blademaster, messing around with their weapons in their spare time to customise them to their needs.

    subtlety and assassinations,

    - Merging subtlety into the assassinations tree, so we have an assassin that jumps from the shadows with daggers, then utilises poisons (and possibly bleeds, yes I know might that contradict what's I said earlier).

    - I also like the idea of a rogue that utlises magic in the firm of a fire/pyromaniac or arcane/shadow melee damage rogue, and whilst this could fit the rogue class, it doesn't necessarily fit into any talent tree yet.

    The free subtlety tree could be used to design a "minor mysterism" tree that utilises arcane, shadow, or fire magic on their weapons to penetrate armour and have greater ranged capability.

    I know a few of you seem sceptical about this minor mysterism based 3rd talent tree suggestion, but consider if it worked in a way similar to shadow blades? It could be an entire tree that brought you many powerful, interesting, but balanced cool downs and burst abilities.

    It would open it up for having more mischievous tools and manipulation abilities to battle enemies with and hopefully renew the flavour of subtlety, not just as a glass cannon stalker (that would not be lost, it'd be condensed into assassinations) which does not work well for balance reasons but as a manipulative, tricky, melee class that uses some magic to fuel their deception.
    REPLY:

    I would point your creativity in just making the class = to all the others. in terms of how the player feels afterwords.

    "my point of view is all three specs combined on performance"

    my input a slight energy regen buff. could be a raise in energy regenerated variable; or reduction on combo point generator abilities tied with mastery for end game performance for the Rogue class. every class feels that they have the resourcefulness of a rogue and the pure rogue doesn't. the class is inconsistent with making the player feel good afterwords -assuming the player does not use macros for every skill bar slot and the addon ones. "hey i have the sword of power i can just keep going i don't care if i die or not in the game".

    for the utility and stealth factor; I would allow Freedom to utility, this is a perk for playing a Rogue. on to stealth there are many things such as AoE's excluding damage; and a lot of other CC abilities that pull a rogue from stealth making the class undesirable to play because of the experience of getting slaughtered over and over. this is after you realize to separate the cheats and hacks going on.. i feel that damage should be the only thing that pulls you out of stealth besides another rogue. so dots bleeds making the other rogue on the other team to play counterintuitive in terms of limiting opposing teams rogue. 00
    Last edited by Thieves cant; 2013-10-24 at 09:12 PM. Reason: clarification

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    REPLY:

    [U]I would point your creativity in just making the class = to all the others. in terms of how the player feels afterwords.[/
    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that comment and whether or not it was intended to be a compliment.

    I really think that I'm on to something with the combat specific "poison" replacements as they could be a great addition to combat, without messing up the flavour of the spec, and would be a logical reason for only assassinations having access to poisons.

    I think subtlety should get their own form of "poison" enchants, even if it was as simple as shadow damage poisons. What I am thinking of for a new spec, is not a pure ranged spec, but something that supports ranged dps - almost a hybrid.

    As a unique idea, it would use a few ranged friendly abilities which enhance your melee attacks. Imagine using shruiken toss, but when you manage to get close, you start generating much more combo points. I'm not exactly idea on how this would work, but that's the concept, if not as a replacement for subtlety (I appreciate people don't want to loose a spec) then this is an imaginary 4th spec.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I was thinking of a combat only slice and dice, something along the lines of this:

    slice and dice. 0 energy cost.
    Your melee attacks have a 50% chance to strike twice and generate 10 energy. If your energy is full, you will deflect all incoming attacks. Lasts longer per combo point
    Why is this so interesting? It gives it the ability to be used defensively. If you've got slice and dice up and you're not using attacks - youre energy capped but it is not "useless". It opens up a new style of defensive playing - but you have to give up offensive ability to do so.
    Last edited by Murdeh; 2013-10-25 at 12:10 AM.

  3. #23
    I do not know a single game which has a meaningful, satisfying melee/ranged hybrid class/spec/whatever. At least not one which satisfies me.

    But the idea of alternative weapon enchants for sub do sound intriguing
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    I do not know a single game which has a meaningful, satisfying melee/ranged hybrid class/spec/whatever. At least not one which satisfies me.
    I agree with you ymirsson; This is how it is every game not just The World of Warcraft though all the MMO games copy the style of wow. I had a friend that taught me a long time ago about what it meant to be a rogue and I took it a step further. these rogue teachers are not around anymore. complicated..

    this is what all the best rogues do; the famous ones. they use a macro for every slot on the skill bar and bars around the screen. so if you not do this then the rogue is not as enjoying as practicing macros. they balance this based on that. Macros make it to where the computer is playing for you and everything is within milliseconds of each other. playing without macros will make it to where your dps is terrible and no one wants to game with you. you practice macros everyone messages you with invites because you are doing 152k consistent dps.

    I disagree with the requirement to where you HAVE to use macros to enjoy the 152 dps because everyone says so "Why don't you discover your potential" learning about programming is very annoying. macros should be a utility that enhances the user experience but does not put you as a player above another in terms of damage rotations or healing rotations.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    I do not know a single game which has a meaningful, satisfying melee/ranged hybrid class/spec/whatever. At least not one which satisfies me.
    Ranger in EQ. One of my fav classes across all the mmo's I've played. DoK would probably right up there too (not really a melee/ranged hybrid though...).

  6. #26
    Depends. It is semi annoying to play Assassination and still have SnD, it's basically just bloat when it comes to that spec, which doesn't really help because Sin has the least buttons to press as is.

    Poisons are fine, but bleeds could be removed for Combat and potentially Assassination (with more focus on the poisons).

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Depends. It is semi annoying to play Assassination and still have SnD, it's basically just bloat when it comes to that spec, which doesn't really help because Sin has the least buttons to press as is.

    Poisons are fine, but bleeds could be removed for Combat and potentially Assassination (with more focus on the poisons).
    Snd should be removed from assassinations, it's just lost its place ever since wotlk when cut to the chase came on the seen.

    As for a melee / ranged hybrid, I was basically suggesting that it was a "melee" class, however the range of certain abilities is extended - so basically imagine if something like deadly throw was usable in melee range and did the exact same damage as envenom or eviscerate, or if shruiken toss was also your sinister strike. It would cut down on bloat, it would mean you weren't helpless a range, but you'd still do some decent ranged damage.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that comment and whether or not it was intended to be a compliment.

    I really think that I'm on to something with the combat specific "poison" replacements as they could be a great addition to combat, without messing up the flavour of the spec, and would be a logical reason for only assassinations having access to poisons.

    I think subtlety should get their own form of "poison" enchants, even if it was as simple as shadow damage poisons. What I am thinking of for a new spec, is not a pure ranged spec, but something that supports ranged dps - almost a hybrid.

    As a unique idea, it would use a few ranged friendly abilities which enhance your melee attacks. Imagine using shruiken toss, but when you manage to get close, you start generating much more combo points. I'm not exactly idea on how this would work, but that's the concept, if not as a replacement for subtlety (I appreciate people don't want to loose a spec) then this is an imaginary 4th spec.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I was thinking of a combat only slice and dice, something along the lines of this:



    Why is this so interesting? It gives it the ability to be used defensively. If you've got slice and dice up and you're not using attacks - youre energy capped but it is not "useless". It opens up a new style of defensive playing - but you have to give up offensive ability to do so.
    your wrong; me as a customer i disagree with your idea.

    iv'e played the class for a long time consistent; i got my mind out there might as well listen to me and actualy try out the idea. if the beta tester like the new rogue then release it live.
    Last edited by Thieves cant; 2013-10-27 at 12:36 AM.

  9. #29
    I don't mind those abilities existing. What I don't like is that now, they're basically required to be up at all times to get maximum efficiency, and that's not fun to me. Bleeds boost your other damage, slice boosts your energy regeneration, recuperate is obvious, etc. Too much ramp up time for me. Of course, I'm only referring to combo point finishers. I don't mind poisons at all, especially now that they're buffs instead of reagents.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post

    For combat rogues:

    - Being abe to reflect / deflect / disarm incoming attacks and this becoming the "niche" for them, especially in pvp. Combat rogues should be difficult to hit, and then they should utilise your momentum against you in a "ninja-ish" martial arty way.
    - New Mechanical enchants for combat instead of poisons, such as sharpening stones, serratted blades, counterweights, weapon oil, weapon traps (hooks either side of the hilt, to disarm on a parry) ect.
    These proc events such as striking twice, ignoring armour, disarming opponents, applying group debuffs, absorbing spell damage ect.
    I love the idea of some kind of blademaster, messing around with their weapons in their spare time to customise them to their needs.
    As a long time fan of combat spec I really love these ideas. The blademaster or duelist kind of tricks would really give combat something in pvp. Maybe killing spree could be redesigned to not be the trick of combat rogues.

  11. #31
    What would the point be? These are pretty iconic rogue things tbh. Bleeds probably the least of the 3 but still... If someone mains a rogue and wants these 3 removed I honestly think you're better off playing another class. Not to mention all the rebalancing that would come up... What would our rotations be? Every spec would have just 1 finisher and a proc/buff/debuff to manage, doesn't sound like an improvement to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    I don't mind those abilities existing. What I don't like is that now, they're basically required to be up at all times to get maximum efficiency, and that's not fun to me. Bleeds boost your other damage, slice boosts your energy regeneration, recuperate is obvious, etc. Too much ramp up time for me. Of course, I'm only referring to combo point finishers. I don't mind poisons at all, especially now that they're buffs instead of reagents.
    I agree, the ramp up for certain specs is really high, even more so if you have low haste levels. Sub has it best since they have a lower energy CP generator and the regen from s&d that doesn't scale with gear. It'd be cooler if Rupture did more damage for every spec instead of just sub, so you see actual damage happening rather then small ticks that boost energy regen/your other damage or slightly out dps eviscerate.
    Last edited by ophion1990; 2013-10-28 at 08:10 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    What would the point be? These are pretty iconic rogue things tbh. Bleeds probably the least of the 3 but still... If someone mains a rogue and wants these 3 removed I honestly think you're better off playing another class. Not to mention all the rebalancing that would come up... What would our rotations be? Every spec would have just 1 finisher and a proc/buff/debuff to manage, doesn't sound like an improvement to me.

    I agree, the ramp up for certain specs is really high, even more so if you have low haste levels. Sub has it best since they have a lower energy CP generator and the regen from s&d that doesn't scale with gear. It'd be cooler if Rupture did more damage for every spec instead of just sub, so you see actual damage happening rather then small ticks that boost energy regen/your other damage or slightly out dps eviscerate.
    I've played a rogue since when I joined the game during TBC. I've tried a few other classes, but nothing else appeals to me quite like the rogue as I love using stealth. Throughout the years, stealth has felt less and less functional and now most classes seem to have some form of stealth mechanics and I feel like my rogue has lost it's niche ability.

    I was not directly asking for bleeds, poisons, or slice and dice to be removed - but rather to be moved into respective talent trees.

    Assassinations should be the poison tree. Lethal poisons for Sub/Combat feel weak, better and more creative solutions can be put in their place, such as the sharpening stones utility I suggested.

    Combat has nothing "swashbuckly" about it. It feels weak and squishy toe to toe there's no use for stealth at all except for mobility, the only reason some people are really playing it in pvp is for cooldowns - which is fine but I think it deserves to have more usability outside of those cool downs it feels pretty boring with just mashing sinister strike till you can eviscerate, neither of which hit particularly hard or are exciting to use.

    The only reason people were playing subtlety during cata was because of shadowstep - before that in wotlk MOST rogues we're playing a form of muti/prep 41/x/21 in pvp. Towards the end of WOTLK sub made a come back because 1 shots and globals were possible with inflatabled gear and hemo changed to be dagger friendly. Nowadays sub is traditionally is just another dagger tree with a spammable, poorly designed, hemo which just overwrites the same debuff, which also happens to be bleed heavy because of a few filler talents such as sanguitory veins.

    My point is that on their own, neither rupture, poisons, or slice and dice feel paritcularly exciting as individual abilities.

    Slice and dice feels ALOT more fun for combat, because you notice it so much more because you're not using daggers. For subtlety, you don't "really" notice it and subulety passive damage isnt all that great even with it. For assassinations, slice and dice is basically passive.

    I'd much rather see a system that made you WANT to use abilities because they had great damage - not because you had to use them because they buffed something else - such as venomous wounds. WOTLK Rogues dropped rupture after t8 /ulduar 4p set (which let rupture crit) as the damage back then was still piss poor, but we had focused attacks not venomous wounds, and not stupid filler-revealing-strike for combat, which is again poorly designed. If revealing strike just had a short cooldown and did a ton more damage and was an energy dump, the system could have worked much better than it does now.

  13. #33
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    952
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    Snd should be removed from assassinations, it's just lost its place ever since wotlk when cut to the chase came on the seen.
    SnD is an abomination that should just be removed for all three specs and maybe be a cooldown for Combat. But an ability that does nothing but boost white-hit damage (by an absurd amount as well) is just passive and, frankly, boring.

  14. #34
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,357
    If rogues lost poisons, bleeds and slice and dice, there wouldn't be a "rogue" class anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    SnD is an abomination that should just be removed for all three specs and maybe be a cooldown for Combat. But an ability that does nothing but boost white-hit damage (by an absurd amount as well) is just passive and, frankly, boring.
    I really like SnD. Why? Because using combo points on only rupture/eviscerate would become EXTREMELY boring.

  15. #35
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    952
    Quote Originally Posted by Emfg View Post
    I really like SnD. Why? Because using combo points on only rupture/eviscerate would become EXTREMELY boring.
    Oh yes, it shouldn't be removed without compensation. Put something interesting there that's not just "uses combo points + energy to do damage" or "uses combo points + energy to make your auto attacks hit harder".

    Or just rework the entire system and put actual combos in it. Using ability 1 enables the use of ability 2+3, using ability 2 then makes it possible to use 4+5 while using ability 3 would enable ability 6+7. Something like that..

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    Oh yes, it shouldn't be removed without compensation. Put something interesting there that's not just "uses combo points + energy to do damage" or "uses combo points + energy to make your auto attacks hit harder".

    Or just rework the entire system and put actual combos in it. Using ability 1 enables the use of ability 2+3, using ability 2 then makes it possible to use 4+5 while using ability 3 would enable ability 6+7. Something like that..
    ^Now that's an interesting idea.

  17. #37
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    3,128
    What if Warriors lost deep wounds, enrage and flurry?
    I7 2600k @4.5ghz : 16GB DDR3 : GTX670 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  18. #38
    High Overlord Wesneed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    185
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    What if Warriors lost deep wounds, enrage and flurry?
    Bad examples since other classes have it aswell.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    Or just rework the entire system and put actual combos in it. Using ability 1 enables the use of ability 2+3, using ability 2 then makes it possible to use 4+5 while using ability 3 would enable ability 6+7. Something like that..
    Skill chains would be a good system (and I do like it in the many games that use it), but I don't see them scrapping the combo point system.

  20. #40
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    952
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Skill chains would be a good system (and I do like it in the many games that use it), but I don't see them scrapping the combo point system.
    Yeah, probably not. But one can dream.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •