View Poll Results: Do you like any of these ideas?

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  • Yes.

    28 19.58%
  • No.

    73 51.05%
  • Most of them, but not everything.

    22 15.38%
  • I like a few of them, but mostly nothing.

    20 13.99%
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  1. #41
    If you're just now actually getting to this thread, READ THE OPENING POSTS. The title is not the entire idea. Come on folks, that should be obvious =(

    We'd be talking about adding new abilities in their place. To note, I don't want to see poisons leave assassination, or bleeds see a smaller role (really at all), but we could use a fresh breath... that's why this topic keeps coming up.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    SnD is an abomination that should just be removed for all three specs and maybe be a cooldown for Combat. But an ability that does nothing but boost white-hit damage (by an absurd amount as well) is just passive and, frankly, boring.

    Yes exactly. Slice and Dice is boring because all it does is increase passive damage by a huge amount especially when combined with poisons.

    Assassinations is all about drowning a target in lethal poisons - that's fine as a design but I don't want to be forced to use poisons for EVERY talent spec because it makes them all feel similar.

    That's why I want abilities/alternative weapon enchants/mechanics for the other specs. Not so much to the degree that they consume a specialisation (nowadays you go assassinations for envenom and poisons, not for mutilate), but just enough to compliment your existing abilities.




    I would love for slice and dice to be put on a short, free, cool down and work in a way similar sword specialisation and/or the old hemmorhage but as a self buff (increasing damage by X per hit for X amount of hits but thats outdated now and replaced with boring percentages) rather than a target debuff

    As a suggestion for consideration remove the combo point cost from kidney shot and slice and dice, and put BOTH on a 20 second shared cool down.

    Slice and Dice would end up feeling considerably more powerful and work as a bridge between times of low energy/combo points.


    Or, instead of having a flat cool down, have some new mechanic something such as "after using 3 eviscerates, slice and dice becomes available" or a restlessness system and that way you manage to keep up a rotation.

  3. #43
    i would still play rogue class (find siting mage back on 60's and ppl runing around him u sprint + ambush + venish = pricless)

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    That's why I want abilities/alternative weapon enchants/mechanics for the other specs. Not so much to the degree that they consume a specialisation (nowadays you go assassinations for envenom and poisons, not for mutilate), but just enough to compliment your existing abilities.
    I disagree, mutilate still plays a very important role in assasination. You need to look at the end state goals of each spec.

    Assasination - Fit as many abilities (mut or dispatch) into the envenom buff as possible while maintaining buffs/debuffs
    Combat - Maximize the amount of eviserates/KS you can perform in deep insight while maintaining buffs/debuffs
    Sub - Maximize the amount of eviserates you can fit into FW while maintaining buffs/debuffs

    Everything else you do for each specc revolves around reaching these goals. Replacing the function and/or name of rupture, poisons, or SnD wouldnt really do anything in the long run. You would still be trying to achieve X, while maintaining Y and Z.

    Right now Combat and Sub play very similiar, the only reason I keep assisnation around is because it does play different.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kael View Post
    If you're just now actually getting to this thread, READ THE OPENING POSTS. The title is not the entire idea. Come on folks, that should be obvious =(
    The title explicitly specifies removing poisons, bleeds, and slice and dice. If your title is "Lets make cows extinct" and your thread is really about how we should probably eat more beef in some situations and less in others, that's just a sensational headline and a waste of time.

    For what it is worth, I hate OP's ideas up and down.

    Poisons define rogues well. Lethal poisons are only very powerful for assassination, but they add to the kit for everyone.

    Rupture should just be buffed. It makes eminent and total sense that you would have the ability to have a dot finisher or a direct blast finisher. I think it should be exactly that though. I think rupture should be like double the damage of an eviscerate if it goes full duration. It should be present for all specs and a clear gain under most situations. They have mostly done this, and I like it. I don't want ANY spec to lose rupture, at all. Hell, lets make blade flurry spread little ruptures.

    Slice and Dice is most fun as sub, where you have a stat that boosts it and you can do tricks with it. Also, sub has a strong timer maintenance feel, more so than the other specs. If only one spec keeps it, I would say sub. It is powerful and fun for combat though. The only spec it really feels shitty for is A, where it's just a tax for pvp or something, and sometimes forces you to spend a 1 point envenom in an aoe situation which feels dumb.



    I think our aoe setup could use some work. I'd be down with tempest just getting buffed a lot, and also fan, but I'd also be ok with only sub having tempest, assassination getting a ground effect poison bottle finisher with a cooldown (so you'd use it single target, but it would do a lot of aoe damage), and combat having a 360 blade flurry that hits the second target for 60% and everything else for like 30%. This is a buff to blade flurry, which definitely needs it: combat is like a stupid version of elemental right now.

  6. #46
    That title is horribly misleading to anyone who doesn't read the original post. But I agree with the idea if only because the rogue specs are far too similar.

    That said, there's probably much better ways to go about it. Slice and dice and poisons are both far too iconic. Rupture too maybe but I could definitely see that becoming Sub exclusive.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Rupture too maybe but I could definitely see that becoming Sub exclusive.
    They'd have to give us another single target non direct damage finisher for assassination / combat though or you'd be massively dumbing down the specs. And really what is left other than a dot? If they say give assassination a poison dot as a finisher (say VW just becomes a finisher) that fixes nothing because they are functionally identical. Rupture may or may not be as iconic as SnD or poisons, but having 1 damaging finisher would be far too boring.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    They'd have to give us another single target non direct damage finisher for assassination / combat though or you'd be massively dumbing down the specs. And really what is left other than a dot? If they say give assassination a poison dot as a finisher (say VW just becomes a finisher) that fixes nothing because they are functionally identical. Rupture may or may not be as iconic as SnD or poisons, but having 1 damaging finisher would be far too boring.
    Agreed. Doesn't matter if you replace it with a dot, a buff, or a dubuff, you're still maintaining Y while maxing X. The best idea I've seen in this thread is putting conditions on finishers in relation to what "combos" are performed. That would make things far more interesting, but it would also make rogue's 3 times harder to play than any other dps spec in WOW and we would see a subsequent drop in class density (assuming they didn't offer appropriate reward for a more challenging playstyle).

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Agreed. Doesn't matter if you replace it with a dot, a buff, or a dubuff, you're still maintaining Y while maxing X. The best idea I've seen in this thread is putting conditions on finishers in relation to what "combos" are performed. That would make things far more interesting, but it would also make rogue's 3 times harder to play than any other dps spec in WOW and we would see a subsequent drop in class density (assuming they didn't offer appropriate reward for a more challenging playstyle).
    The only thing that would do, is introduce multiple different rotation variations within the same specialisation - it just wouldn't work. The specialisation would enivitably have stronger finisher and a single optimal rotation.

    The variations in rotation should extend across different specifications and not be limited to one set of talents in particular.

    No one seems to be considering the flavour or the feel of each specialisation. I still maintain my point that mutiliate is no longer the "bursty" portion of assassinations, it's still obviously important for combo point generation, but it's no longer as crucial or as potent as it once was. People no longer say "wow look at that mutiliate crit" but that's more to do with the majority of assassinations (and all rogue specs in general) dealing a heavy amount of passive damage because of slice and dice.

    Slice and dice is great for damage, but it isn't interesting and it's large passive damage increase holds back our active damage.

  10. #50
    People are harping too much on rogues losing their "core" as a rogue class if we change these, but something's gotta chance. This is obviously meant to be about an expansion change, and it's hard to argue that Sub should have to keep up SnD, rupture and hemo just to get into a regular rotation. If you look at any other class that has to maintain buffs/debuffs like that, it's the majority of their rotation (warlocks, for example). I think one spec should revolve around bleeds almost entirely (it's basically already Sub), where you don't use Eviscerate as much, one should be based around SnD and fast attacks (would need another CP builder and finisher, rupture removed), which is pretty close to Combat. Sin should be largely poison based, but the poison focus should be less passive. A second combo-builder (a revamped Shiv?) would help a lot, and re-working Envenom, or adding another finisher, would go a long ways.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The title explicitly specifies removing poisons, bleeds, and slice and dice. If your title is "Lets make cows extinct" and your thread is really about how we should probably eat more beef in some situations and less in others, that's just a sensational headline and a waste of time.

    Poisons define rogues well. Lethal poisons are only very powerful for assassination, but they add to the kit for everyone.

    Rupture should just be buffed. It makes eminent and total sense that you would have the ability to have a dot finisher or a direct blast finisher. I think it should be exactly that though. I think rupture should be like double the damage of an eviscerate if it goes full duration. It should be present for all specs and a clear gain under most situations. They have mostly done this, and I like it. I don't want ANY spec to lose rupture, at all. Hell, lets make blade flurry spread little ruptures.

    Slice and Dice is most fun as sub, where you have a stat that boosts it and you can do tricks with it. Also, sub has a strong timer maintenance feel, more so than the other specs. If only one spec keeps it, I would say sub. It is powerful and fun for combat though. The only spec it really feels shitty for is A, where it's just a tax for pvp or something, and sometimes forces you to spend a 1 point envenom in an aoe situation which feels dumb.



    I think our aoe setup could use some work. I'd be down with tempest just getting buffed a lot, and also fan, but I'd also be ok with only sub having tempest, assassination getting a ground effect poison bottle finisher with a cooldown (so you'd use it single target, but it would do a lot of aoe damage), and combat having a 360 blade flurry that hits the second target for 60% and everything else for like 30%. This is a buff to blade flurry, which definitely needs it: combat is like a stupid version of elemental right now.
    Then you might aswell merge rupture with crimson tempest. I'd be very happy if that was done, it makes it a clear gain for using it instead of eviscerate. Allow rupture to rupture all targets within melee/short range and apply it to all specialisations.

    I've suggested the poison bottle thing before for assassinations. I like the idea of throwing a vial of poison into a targeted area, which causes all enemies who enter the area to be contaminated with deadly poison. Almost copy paste death and decay and rename it Deadly poison vials and change it to nature damage - cant be that hard to do.

    I also don't see anything wrong with my suggestion for combat only poisons called sharpening stones which work like sword specialisation and proc different interesting effects.

    I actually hate mastery as a concept and a stat, it feels boring and I would love to see it removed. I don't want main gauche, I want sword specialisation - and yes It does feel different to use.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    I actually hate mastery as a concept and a stat, it feels boring and I would love to see it removed. I don't want main gauche, I want sword specialisation - and yes It does feel different to use.
    Mastery is not bad as concept imho, just it's implemented in a boring/passive way. Still i don't have ideas on how make it more interesting.

  13. #53
    Slice and Dice is horrible boring in its current format and wouldn't miss it in the least.

    Imo, move Slice and Dice to Combat only in a modified form, Eviscerate to Sub only, then add new new spec unique finishers to the specs to fill the voids in order to add some flavor to them. Rogues are like Hunters in that they're all just so blah and bland when it comes to the playstyle and spec identity at this point.

    Also, rename Assassination. Subtlety feels more like an assassin than Assassination does. Poisoning a target to death by stabbing them a 10000 times doesn't feel very "assassinish." Been a gripe of mine since Cata...
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2013-10-30 at 07:49 AM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    Slice and Dice is horrible boring in its current format and wouldn't miss it in the least.

    Imo, move Slice and Dice to Combat only in a modified form, Eviscerate to Sub only, then add new new spec unique finishers to the specs to fill the voids in order to add some flavor to them. Rogues are like Hunters in that they're all just so blah and bland when it comes to the playstyle and spec identity at this point.

    Also, rename Assassination. Subtlety feels more like an assassin than Assassination does. Poisoning a target to death by stabbing them a 10000 times doesn't feel very "assassinish." Been a gripe of mine since Cata...
    I'd agree with pretty much everything here, but I can't see assassinations getting a rename any time soon - even if it does make more logical sense.

    What name would fit the role of a poison based spec then? Alchemist? Defiler? Swiftblade? Just throwing random ideas out there.

    If you look a redesigning slice and dice, it's main function so far is a self buff, and a combo point finisher.

    One suggestion could be that it remain as a self buff, and a combo point finisher, but change the buff so that it offers increased damage per strike, almost like the old hemo where it applied charges to the target that increased melee damage taken by X, but it works as a self buff rather than a target debuff. However, that wouldn't work because they don't use that mechanic any more, everything is done on boring percentages, and we are still stuck with a self buff.

    If you remove the combo point cost, slice and dice becomes something you spam endlessly. Not particularly interesting. If you add a cool down to prevent spamming it, yes it can be more potent, but then you cant use it in your rotation as oftern and short duration buffs with cool downs are counterproductive especially to use in a rotation. Combo point finishers with direct timer cool downs is also a poor design.

    So all you're really left with is using a separate mechanic to proc slice and dice. Perhaps for combat eviscerate could have a chance per combo point to proc the use of a much more potent slice and dice, but then that causes a whole list of problems. Does it just look like a nerfed cut to the chase for example? What if it doesn't proc, is your rotation screwed?

    It's not really a simple fix. Replacing it with another self buff isn't necessarily the answer, unless the aim is to nerf passive damage to increase active damage, which also means nerfing slice and dice without making it more interesting or appealing.

  15. #55
    All of the suggestions for a SnD replacement still do not reach a goal of changing the rogue playsyle. You're still just maintaining a buff/dubuff. Yes rogues have alot of passive damage and yes they deal with alot of buff/defuff maintenance, but that's how rogue's play. The fun of playing a rogue is knowing when to refresh buff Y so you can achieve goal X in order to max you're overall damage. There are many other classes that have the instant gratification factor of large flashy active damage abilities and many of those classes end up feeling like you're just hitting whatever ability comes off cooldown without any other care in the world. I love the way rogue's play and I would hate to see the overall playstyle change. I hate to be the guy saying this, but if you don't like timing cooldowns/buffs/debuffs in order to maintain a steady amount of high damage that is mostly passive, then I think you would be much happier playing a different class.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    All of the suggestions for a SnD replacement still do not reach a goal of changing the rogue playsyle. You're still just maintaining a buff/dubuff. Yes rogues have alot of passive damage and yes they deal with alot of buff/defuff maintenance, but that's how rogue's play. The fun of playing a rogue is knowing when to refresh buff Y so you can achieve goal X in order to max you're overall damage. There are many other classes that have the instant gratification factor of large flashy active damage abilities and many of those classes end up feeling like you're just hitting whatever ability comes off cooldown without any other care in the world. I love the way rogue's play and I would hate to see the overall playstyle change. I hate to be the guy saying this, but if you don't like timing cooldowns/buffs/debuffs in order to maintain a steady amount of high damage that is mostly passive, then I think you would be much happier playing a different class.
    I'm fine with that play style for assassinations, but I do not want that to become a uniform play style a cross every specialisation. Also, how interesting really is it for assassinations to keep up slice and dice? It's done for you and is not particularly interesting - but that's genuinely ok because you have envenom clipping/uptime to maintain instead.

    You may aswell just add a 40% (or higher) attack speed increase whilst envenom is active and remove slice and dice from the specialisation all togther. That would, in my opinion, make things more interesting and decrease the ramp up time.


    There's nothing wrong with tracking buffs or debuffs, but at the moment they do feel clunky and forced. When I play assassinations, I'm not using rupture because I "want" to use it in the same way I "want" to use envenom because it deals good damage. I'm using it because I need it for energy regeneration.

    This is a similar situation for subtlety thanks to sanguitory veins, except the situation is more obviouse here. They may as well have removed sanguitory veins and buffed active damage by ~20% or whatever the talent displays nowadays, because it is purely just a nuisance to use and a way of forcing you to apply a bleed when you otherwise wouldn't want to. It's still a +damage talent and they had said they aimed to removed those but have not.

    I want rupture to be a blindingly obviouse choice. I want it to feel potent and at the moment it just doesn't - the talents surrounding it do, but the abilities themselves do not.

    Subtlety is still lacking its identity. In terms of game play, I think shadow dance was a horrible addition im it current implimentarion because it meant that damage was balanced around shadow dance. More regular stealth abilities inevitably meant lower damage stealth abilities, and when you're not using stealth abilities you feel weaker and awkward.

    I would rather have seen something like a 20-30 second cool down mini vanish which just out you into stealth for 3 seconds (even if no energy regen took place or it cost energy to use) so that you could use defensively as a spell dodger or offensively as an opener.

    Or as a replacement for shadow dance, something like it drops a clone of you and phases the rogue in shadows for roughly 10-15 seconds making them unattackable - but if the clone is killed then the effect ends early for the rogue. It's got defensive and offensive potential and it's unique.

    Hell this stuff is interesting in its an right, it should be Implimented into subtlety bag of tricks and then do away with all this rupture blood letting sanguitory shit. Just buff rupture across the board and people will start using it again, dont tie it to talents.
    Last edited by Murdeh; 2013-10-30 at 02:23 PM.

  17. #57
    Bieng a huge damaging ability isn't the fun having the debuffs (rupture) to maintain. The fun is having to maintain the ability to maximize damage. They added in the energy regeneration for assas and the damage bonus for sub so that you would want to maintain the abilities. I feel that you're focusing on the wrong aspects of the rogue playstlye as exampled by you wanting to envenom for the envenom damage. Envenom isn't there for damage, you shouldn't want to envenom for the sake of envenom damage. You want to envenom in order to apply the buff and then get more DP procs via pooling energy and fitting as many mutilates into that buff as possible. Rupture is there and gives energy so that you have meaningful decision points of when to refresh while maintaining the maximum amount of abilities you can fit into the envenom buff(Heck, at lower item and haste levels, its fine to be under expertise cap because missing an envenom still gives you the buff without consuming combo points) the damage from envenom is just a nice bonus to the overall assas rotation and isn't key to the rotation at all.
    I will agree that SnD doesn't really provide many meaningful decision points in the assas rotation, but I think the fix for that is to remove cut to the chase and make assas have to hard refresh SnD.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Bieng a huge damaging ability isn't the fun having the debuffs (rupture) to maintain. The fun is having to maintain the ability to maximize damage.
    I kinda disagree. The point of having stuff to manage is to make the class less boring. Less boring isn't equivalent to fun even though once it reaches a certain level of boring, fun is pretty unlikely. I don't find a mechanic that has such a trivial pay off to be fun, just tedious. For example, rupture for combat. I think having things like maximizing uptime of rupture / envenom actually be really huge would make it more fun because things just feel more rewarding when you get more out of them.

    As far as what they can do, I think we need a whole new mechanic for each spec. Skill chains was a good one mentioned here (oh and to who was concerned there would be one optimal one, you can put different cds on different moves on each level of the chain, and yeah there will be a more optimal order, but you won't be able to use the exact same chain all the time which is how other games have done it). SnD should probably be nerfed, rupture should probably be buffed, but having a buff and debuff to watch adds complexity which is good, and removing one and adding another buff/debuff you have to keep up with a different name and identical functionality is pointless and a waste of time.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-10-30 at 06:39 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I kinda disagree. The point of having stuff to manage is to make the class less boring. Less boring isn't equivalent to fun even though once it reaches a certain level of boring, fun is pretty unlikely. I don't find a mechanic that has such a trivial pay off to be fun, just tedious. For example, rupture for combat. I think having things like maximizing uptime of rupture / envenom actually be really huge would make it more fun because things just feel more rewarding when you get more out of them.

    As far as what they can do, I think we need a whole new mechanic for each spec. Skill chains was a good one mentioned here (oh and to who was concerned there would be one optimal one, you can put different cds on different moves on each level of the chain, and yeah there will be a more optimal order, but you won't be able to use the exact same chain all the time which is how other games have done it). SnD should probably be nerfed, rupture should probably be buffed, but having a buff and debuff to watch adds complexity which is good, and removing one and adding another buff/debuff you have to keep up with a different name and identical functionality is pointless and a waste of time.
    What about a replacement eviscerate for subulety? Something that deals instant damage and was a dot

    Also, is it time for kidney shot to loose it's combo point requirement? I get why it was there originally, but nowadays classes can stun on demand with no sacrifice to damage, whilst we still have to give up a finisher, which hurts specialisations with slow combo point generation much more than it does with those that have rapid combo point generation.

  20. #60
    I like the way rogues are currently playing. Don't fuck them up by completely changing their design philosophy.

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