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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    From the official forums in the upcoming Acherus thread.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8690929316

    May aswell plug the thread, could be interesting. Maybe you could share some of your concerns on Saturday?
    Straw men everywhere!

    Good luck trying to say any of those involved in the little chat room are wrong. We know they are wrong, we've proven they are wrong on multiple occasions, but they won't listen to anything anyone ever says or proves otherwise. Even with the use of their own tools they've been proven wrong. They have more straw men than Halloween!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    How bad is that bad?

    How viable is not viable?

    There are plenty of raiding death knights in guilds that can be found on the front page of wowprogress, I can't comment on 10 mans...SNIP
    25M just doesn't factor in this conversation because you can have everyone in the raid and it makes no difference. With a 25M, you're going to have a huge variety of gear/skill levels mixed in whereas 10M you need everyone to have their stuff together. You can lose 4 DPS in 25M (3 bres) and still down the boss no problem whereas in 10M if you lose 2 DPS you're done (most of the time). Add to the fact that 25M you can carry a greater deal of lesser skilled players and be fine.

    What needs to be reiterated is that you only have two melee spots (MAX) in 10M.

    Rank melee in taking into consideration DPS, Raid Utility, and Survivability given equal skill and gear.

    My list would be something like:
    1. Warrior
    2. Rogue
    3. Paladin
    4. Shaman
    5. Druid
    6. Monk
    7. DK

    Now, take the top two from your list. Is DK there? Nope. I guarantee you could re-think this list a thousand times and DK will never show up in 1, 2 or even 3 (when there are fights you can afford the liability of having 3 melee).

    But just remember...everything is awesome!!
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  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    Straw men everywhere!

    Good luck trying to say any of those involved in the little chat room are wrong. We know they are wrong, we've proven they are wrong on multiple occasions, but they won't listen to anything anyone ever says or proves otherwise. Even with the use of their own tools they've been proven wrong. They have more straw men than Halloween!!
    Who? What? Where? Pretty much everyone in the thread says DKs are viable for progression this tier, not one of the outlier classes but decent enough not to bench. The parametres for benching your raiding DK seem to have become incredibly narrow, narrow enough to not effect the DK raiding community anyway.

    Some people will not be happy unless they are top dog, that's fine, just start playing FoTM next expansion and you will be happy enough.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Who? What? Where? Pretty much everyone in the thread says DKs are viable for progression this tier, not one of the outlier classes but decent enough not to bench. The parametres for benching your raiding DK seem to have become incredibly narrow, narrow enough to not effect the DK raiding community anyway.

    Some people will not be happy unless they are top dog, that's fine, just start playing FoTM next expansion and you will be happy enough.
    Everything is viable in 25M (carryville).



    Justify to those other 6 classes why they are sitting so the DK can be in on 10M progression...GO.
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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    Everything is viable in 25M (carryville).
    Most of us here raid 10.

  5. #205
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Sounds very much like ppl discuss a situation where every class in their guild is played by a perfect player and thus DKs can be neglected. This ofc would apply to a guild that is already cutting edge and 14/14 HM.

    For our very average guildhowever (just starting HMs) - we take the strongest players and it so happens that the highest dps in my guild are provided by a hunter, a warlock and a DK.

    Soooo.....to me the reason to bring a DK would be, that he is played by a person who knows how to play his class.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    25M just doesn't factor in this conversation
    Well maybe if more of the high ranked ten man death knights could share their experiences of this tier we could have more relevant information to work with.

  7. #207

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ting.tier16_10'

    World 2nd 10man guild using DPS DK.
    /thread
    Pretty much this.

    "There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
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  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ting.tier16_10'

    World 2nd 10man guild using DPS DK.
    /thread
    The one that said this
    Quote Originally Posted by Vereesà
    DKs are fine. We might not be quite as optimal as second Warlock or something, but the tuning of encounters is simply not tight enough for that marginal difference to matter.
    Although according the DarthMetatron Vereesà is a liar! They have proven wrong many times apparently about......well I don't know how Vereesà's opinion about being able to raid in a world 2nd 10 man is wrong but it's wrong god damn it and you guys better be prepared to get on board with that!
    Last edited by Kronik85; 2013-11-15 at 03:43 PM.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Most of us here raid 10.
    Ok, well let's talk about how to handle a real life situation.

    You have 13 people on your 10M team including these melee DPS: Rogue, Paladin, Warrior and DK. They are all equally as skilled and geared.

    The progression fights you are working on dictate that you can bring only two melee DPS because of the mechanics (just as most fights do). They are an even mix of magic and physical damage to the raid with some movement and maybe an add here and there (average fight).

    You are the GM and your responsibility to the team is to always put them in the best position to succeed. Which two do you bring?
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  11. #211
    The rogue and whichever strength dps I believe to be the best player, I'm clearly not aiming for high ranked kills if I have three strength dps in a 10 man roster.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    Ok, well let's talk about how to handle a real life situation.

    You have 13 people on your 10M team including these melee DPS: Rogue, Paladin, Warrior and DK. They are all equally as skilled and geared.

    The progression fights you are working on dictate that you can bring only two melee DPS because of the mechanics (just as most fights do). They are an even mix of magic and physical damage to the raid with some movement and maybe an add here and there (average fight).

    You are the GM and your responsibility to the team is to always put them in the best position to succeed. Which two do you bring?
    I am the GM of a 10 man raid team. We have a DK, a Rogue, a Warrior, a Shadow Priest, a Mage and a Hunter who are all about equally geared and skilled. For progression we would probably run me over the Rogue, I cleave better and every boss has some cleave or we would rotate if some one didn't want gear. I've got faith that the raid could manage without me but that's got nothing to do with class balance, it's because I know the other guys are raiders too.

    Alot of the fights are also 6 DPS, in which case you bring a 3rd melee nps. Providing there is an adequate number of bodies at range you still get your mechanic immunity.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    The one that said this


    Although according the DarthMetatron Vereesà is a liar! They have proven wrong many times apparently about......well I don't know how Vereesà's opinion about being able to raid in a world 2nd 10 man is wrong but it's wrong god damn it and you guys better be prepared to get on board with that!
    Because I said that killing things with a DK isn't possible? I must have missed that post.

    There's a little bit of a difference between being 7th most optimal choice and being not viable.
    Last edited by DarthMetatron; 2013-11-15 at 03:56 PM.
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  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    Because I said that killing things with a DK isn't possible? I must have missed that post.

    There's a little bit of a difference between being 7th most optimal choice and being not viable.
    Your argument shifts so much I find it quite hard to keep up tbh.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Your argument shifts so much I find it quite hard to keep up tbh.
    I have not once shifted my argument.

    1. DK's are not "everything is awesome" and in fact are not in the top 3 or even 5 melee DPS given equal ground.
    2. If you say or prove otherwise, you will be beaten with straw men.
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  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    I have not once shifted my argument.

    1. DK's are not "everything is awesome".
    2. If you say or prove otherwise, you will be beaten with straw men.
    Who said everything is awesome? People saying we are fine and viable is not the same as saying we are the best thing since sliced bread. Everyone has acknowledged that we aint the best class out there. Most of us just don't really care considering it's having 0 impact on our play experience.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by FiXThEPiEcEs View Post
    Change? Like how Frost has been pretty much the same since Wotlk and also Unholy since Pre-Cata? (:

    Blizz y u hate us
    lolwot...

    you obviously didnt play a DK in WOTLK

  18. #218
    Continue petting each other, but I've made my point.
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  19. #219
    The Patient Mûe's Avatar
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    Thats exactly the problem i have at the moment. I have my twink DK with 4 Set bonus T16 Lfr, ilvl 530 without the legendary cape or the normal 600 cape.

    I useually do around 140-150k DPS on a single target encounter and about 200k DPS on Multitarget like protectors.

    Now... I compare a lot. My main is a ilvl 568 Mage which is a big difference... but honestly.. i do 350 DPS on like SHA HC or Iron Jugg HC without a problem and 480+ K DPS on Protectors with some luck in frost spec. Can 38Ilvls + legendary proc be a difference of 200+ DPS...

    And to be honoust ... its not liek Frost 2 hand is hard to play... i track my Deseases and use the dmg CD'S on time with bloodlust and ghoul... army at the start ... I really dont get it

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    Continue petting each other, but I've made my point.
    Well what's your point? We should bench ourselves? Talking about buffs and nerfs seems pointless at this stage since Blizz won't touch it till WoD beta is almost finished. We might see some Arms nerfs to try and save the Arena season but it's even too late in the game for that.

    Someone also said Warlocks were on the radar but it was in relation to WoD so not expecting to see any nerfs there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mûe View Post
    Thats exactly the problem i have at the moment. I have my twink DK with 4 Set bonus T16 Lfr, ilvl 530 without the legendary cape or the normal 600 cape.

    I useually do around 140-150k DPS on a single target encounter and about 200k DPS on Multitarget like protectors.

    Now... I compare a lot. My main is a ilvl 568 Mage which is a big difference... but honestly.. i do 350 DPS on like SHA HC or Iron Jugg HC without a problem and 480+ K DPS on Protectors with some luck in frost spec. Can 38Ilvls + legendary proc be a difference of 200+ DPS...

    And to be honoust ... its not liek Frost 2 hand is hard to play... i track my Deseases and use the dmg CD'S on time with bloodlust and ghoul... army at the start ... I really dont get it
    I sim at around 310k at 562, I've got a log on Iron Jugg normal for about that. Not sure if I would expect 350k DPS at 568 but maybe another 10k or so. Ilvl makes a huge difference atm, I've never seen anything like it before in WoW, it's madness lol.

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