Why bring a DK DPS to a 10 man group?

[Louis CK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoJJOrR4wj8

Skip to 2:20

Even if they're bad, they're still competent.

That was pretty obnxious... However, when the guy asks lock for a summon... I cracked up.

lol

[Müdür]

strong personal survival, especially compared to warriors. AMS is a very unique protection against massive magic damage (which is very common), plus if specced in purgatory dk's can survive any big explosion that another melee cant survive. Combat Res can be brought by many classes but Raise Ally is instant and probably the fastest of all (maybe soul stone? not sure about that), useful to raise a dead tank immediately. Also compared to smoke bomb, Anti-magic zone is much bigger dmg reduction for burst magic aoes, I especially use it on sha's swelling prides or Iron juggernaut's siege mode explosions.

But what makes dk's special is grips as mentioned earlier. Ofc you can do all the fights without it but I cant express how much easier they become with grips.

In the end, if you have a decent player playing dk, you wont regret it.

[Glurp]

Death Grip
Gorefiend's Grasp
Brez
AMZ
2 Buffs 1 Debuff

[Barael]

AMZ, really? It needs to be a lot bigger or have a lot longer duration. It is terrible compared to any other raid cd and I don't want to hear any "it's really okay for 3 whole seconds and it only requires a couple raid movement speed cooldowns for everyone to reach your tiny bubble in time" objections.

[Glurp]

AMZ, really? It needs to be a lot bigger or have a lot longer duration. It is terrible compared to any other raid cd and I don't want to hear any "it's really okay for 3 whole seconds and it only requires a couple raid movement speed cooldowns for everyone to reach your tiny bubble in time" objections.

AMZ isn't as great as other raid CDs in general but AMZ usually always has a few places per tier where it is 1000% better than any other raid CD.

[Sliippy]

I'd give you a serious answer but, obviously there are several reasons to have a dk in your raid esp considering that we are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fWvub_WBho

[Teebu]

While it's true that if you're not racing for world firsts, it doesn't really matter what class comp your raid has. Any comp can clear any raid, although at a different gear level and speed.

Then again, people like minmaxing. Not only their characters, but also their raid comp. If you get an Enhancement Shaman or a Warrior instead, you have a (possibly an additional) Stormlash Totem or Skull Banner for Bloodlust or burn phases, which might just be what you need on that one fight you've been struggling with DPS wise, or Demoralizing Banner for having a longer phase 1 on Thok for example.

People here say get the best player, I agree, but you can't know the DK is a better player compared to your other applicant before seeing them both in action. And if you have two identical applications, I'd always go with the one who would bring the most to the raid.

[Sliippy]

While it's true that if you're not racing for world firsts, it doesn't really matter what class comp your raid has. Any comp can clear any raid, although at a different gear level and speed.

Then again, people like minmaxing. Not only their characters, but also their raid comp. If you get an Enhancement Shaman or a Warrior instead, you have a (possibly an additional) Stormlash Totem or Skull Banner for Bloodlust or burn phases, which might just be what you need on that one fight you've been struggling with DPS wise, or Demoralizing Banner for having a longer phase 1 on Thok for example.

People here say get the best player, I agree, but you can't know the DK is a better player compared to your other applicant before seeing them both in action. And if you have two identical applications, I'd always go with the one who would bring the most to the raid.

That's why guilds do trials. It's a lot easier in a 25 man group since a lot of 10 man players don't like being sat.

[Mawnix]

DK has one of the lowest DPS and worst raidsupport.

You haven't seen a BIS geared DW Frost DK, then.

And considering our support.. I'll let the other posters in this thread cover that.

[Barael]

AMZ usually always has a few places per tier where it is 1000% better than any other raid CD.

I'd say that was true of the old AMZ (where it would absorb huge amounts of damage if it all came at once) but not anymore.

[Strangebrew]

You haven't seen a BIS geared DW Frost DK, then.

And considering our support.. I'll let the other posters in this thread cover that.

They are still one of the worst dps, unholy being even worse.
Sure DW can get a little ahead on some fights with alot of adds, but compare a BiS frost DW to any other class and the facts speaks for itself, we are way behind.

AMZ is something you need to time perfectly, and it only lasts 3 seconds.
That is rather a poor excuse for a raid CD, there is not alot of reasons of why to take it over purgatory, you will find a few uses for it but that is about it.

DK dps needs some serious scaling fixes, reach BiS level of gear and we fall behind like usual.
It have been a major problem through entire MoP sadly.

Same goes with mass grip and remorseless, you will a few uses for it.
It still does not compare to what other classes are.



If you have a warrior/paladin/rogue and a DK, they are all on the same level of gear and they are all just as good as each other.
There is zero reason to pick DK over any of those classes, you pick a dk for your raid group if he`s good, but if you have any other melee class that play just as good you would just pick them instead thanks to what they can bring instead of a dk.

[Xkiller9000]

DK has one of the lowest DPS and worst raidsupport.

Are you kidding? 1. we have good raid support with AMZ, and if theres no need we have Purgatory to keep ourselves alive. we have aoe stun and grip which is super helpful on lei shen and garrosh.

but ur comment on DPS, LOL, frost dks have some really good damage, especially aoe as DW. Just like any other melee class, they do better as an expansion goes on because they scale so well with gear.

[Strangebrew]

but ur comment on DPS, LOL, frost dks have some really good damage, especially aoe as DW. Just like any other melee class, they do better as an expansion goes on because they scale so well with gear.

No they do not scale well, nor do they compete with other melee.
That is just bullshit, yes dw frost is the highest dps of the dk specs right now, but it still fall behind on BiS level of gear due to the piss poor scaling frost always have had.

Compare AMZ to other classes raid utility for once maybe, its not as good as you think.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...11100000000000
Look, both our specs are on the lower half.
That says alot really.

[Faids]

Well looking through your logs my DK would have been #1 or #2 on all of your fights last week, so there's that. The DK in your raid right now is ranking in the 30th percentile. I wouldn't base my opinions of the entire class on his performance.

[Strangebrew]

Well looking through your logs my DK would have been #1 or #2 on all of your fights last week, so there's that.

Who`s logs? mine?

[Deleted]

I raid in a rather casual 10man guild I joined 3 weeks ago. They are currently 3/14 HC. On Immerseus I never used mass grip (we have a DK tank) on Protectors I just DPSed and interrupted corruption shock and on Norushen I just dotted adds and tunneled the Amalgamation. I haven't really used grip much except for shamans on Nazgrim. I play unholy and I think my guild only brings me because 1) I know how to mash keys harder than other dks they've had (because dk dps isn't very skill requiring, not even dual wield frost) and 2) I don't stand in fire.

What I'm saying is the same as other people have said. Unless you're going for world top 10 or so your composition doesn't matter and good dk > average other melee DPS.

[Faids]

Who`s logs? mine?

The OP's. kjeeves

[captaincoffeecup]

Why bring a DK DPS to a 10 man group?
I am a raid leader / guild master of a 6/14 HC 10 man group and i'm contemplating how I want my group to look like for the next tier. The class it self is subject to change in the next expension of course, but based on the state of DKs now, what are the benefits of a dk dps in a 10 man group? Instead of for example, rogue/warrior.

We don't have a dk dps in our group atm and never have so im curious as to what they bring.

We have a frost DK in our 10 man. We don't bring him because of the DK, we bring him because he is a really strong player. I never get these threads really.

Unless you are competing for extremely high rankings any comp works if the players are strong, so why question bringing a DK? Can he outshine our rouge? No, but rouges are retarded at the minute. But regardless of that he is a very competent player who brings ideas and well above average (for a DK) dps, has very high survivability, a back-up CR, grip, AMZ and an extra defensive for our Boomkin with Symbiosis. Is this the most raid utility? No. Does AMZ need to be used perfectly? Yes. Can he do that? Yes he can. That's one of the reasons he is a great player.

TL;DR = Bring the player, not the class.

[Skarssen]

Kind of depressing to see that even after all the buffs frost received for 5.4, it still sits at the bottom of overall raid DPS in heroic 25 (all parses, 90th percentile). In doesn't even get above the median on cleave/AOE fights.

Same thing happens every tier, and the really infuriating part if that Blizzard refuses to admit that there is a scaling problem with DPS DKs. In fact once you mention "scaling" they tune out of any conversation.

But clearly we are all wrong and frost ends up the bottom of every tier purely due to sampling bias....

[Strangebrew]

Kind of depressing to see that even after all the buffs frost received for 5.4, it still sits at the bottom of overall raid DPS in heroic 25 (all parses, 90th percentile). In doesn't even get above the median on cleave/AOE fights.

Same thing happens every tier, and the really infuriating part if that Blizzard refuses to admit that there is a scaling problem with DPS DKs. In fact once you mention "scaling" they tune out of any conversation.

But clearly we are all wrong and frost ends up the bottom of every tier purely due to sampling bias....

This, so much fucking this.

If people dont see that there are a issue with dk`s then they are delusional.
"bring the player" doesnt really work on this.
There is still no reason to pick a dk over any other melee class.