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  1. #1

    [Resto] 5.4 Tier Bonuses & Trinkets

    Hey Hoping someone who might have looked at some more maths this tier than me would be able to shed some light over gearing choices that I'm having trouble deciding over (armory link - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...trise/advanced). Currently wondering two things.

    Firstly, at what stage does it become worth upgrading to the new tier set if you have double upgraded of the previous tier? Have the full normal set available but not sure if its worth using. Also if I do lose the T15 4P should that change something with how I'm doing my stats? Currently go for the high breakpoint which has awesome synergy with the T15 bonus.

    Other thing is, which trinkets would you say are good this tier? From my experience, Blackfuse trinket is nice as I do prefer static int with random proc mana regen. Thok trinket from what I saw is utter shit. So really I'm asking how do the Sha / Nazgrim trinkets compare to HLG?

    Thankyou

    Nightrise

  2. #2
    Is the 4 piece worth it? (tier 16)

  3. #3
    4t16 is a fairly significant stat boost even NQ double upgraded--especially if you don't have heroic 4t15. 4t15 is about a 16% output increase to rejuv at 6 ticks (13163 haste), but rejuv is only 30-40% of your healing, while the stat boost on 4t16 will give you an across-the-board stat upgrade, increasing your throughput, spirit, and allowing you to gem for more mastery (which is the best gem stat for throughput).

    I think in my set I have almost 8k mastery while maintaining haste BP, and similar int. That's about 4% more healing output due to harmony (26% instead of 22%). And of course, the 2t16 and 4t16 bonuses aren't terrible either.

    Sha trinket is bar-none the best trinket in the tier--definitely better than HLG. Sha/Samophlange or Sha/Nazgrim are the best trinket combos to use, depending on whether you run dry on mana with Sha/Nazgrim.

    Double regen trinkets + darkglow embroidery + spirit gems anywhere is probably mana-regen overkill. You should probably look to take less spirit in favor of throughput.

  4. #4
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    I would hang on to that 4T15 for as long as you're comfortable with it. It's going to improve your rejuvenations a lot, especially if you're at 13k haste, and more Efflorescence healing is nice. The lower item level is going to cost you when it comes to burst healing, though, as Tranquility, Wild Growth and shroom bloom do not benefit from the set bonus. If you feel like you're at a point where more burst would be more helpful than more sustained healing, break the set. The benefits of breaking the set are obviously bigger if you have one or more pieces of heroic T16.

    As for trinkets, the ones from Sha and Blackfuse are better than the rest. Thok's one is better on average than Nazgrim's, but is much less reliable as it may not proc at all when you need it (while Nazgrim's procs every second). The value of both is ruined by the randomness of the intellect proc, though. They're better on paper than in practice.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  5. #5
    Ditch the t15 as soon as you can. The t16 increased rejuv is mostly overheal, and you make up for that 8% increase through stats alone. Furthermore, the t16 bonuses are brilliant, particularly in 10m where you will get a lot of use out of them.

    People attached to t15 just like to pad meters by spamming rejuv, which is only encouraged on 2 encounters in SoO.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightrisee View Post
    Firstly, at what stage does it become worth upgrading to the new tier set if you have double upgraded of the previous tier? Have the full normal set available but not sure if its worth using. Also if I do lose the T15 4P should that change something with how I'm doing my stats? Currently go for the high breakpoint which has awesome synergy with the T15 bonus.
    I would not switch from 4p heroic T15 to normal T16. The exact values of the bonuses depend on a lot of factors and are hard to calculate exactly, but as a rule of thumb the switch should be worth it when you have around two heroic pieces available.
    4pT15 ist extremely strong (and not at all meter padding, no idea how anyone could think that) and needs a lot of stats to offset its value. But there it a point where T16 is stronger due to the higher item levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightrisee View Post
    Other thing is, which trinkets would you say are good this tier? From my experience, Blackfuse trinket is nice as I do prefer static int with random proc mana regen. Thok trinket from what I saw is utter shit. So really I'm asking how do the Sha / Nazgrim trinkets compare to HLG?
    I would not consider using anything but Blackfuse and Sha trinket (unless you don't get them). It's bad enough that 3 out of 4 trinkets have those very crappy int procs, at least Sha gives decent stats. Since you only have normal HLG, switching to normal Sha would be a small upgrade.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    but as a rule of thumb the switch should be worth it when you have around two heroic pieces available.
    4pT15 ist extremely strong (and not at all meter padding, no idea how anyone could think that) and needs a lot of stats to offset its value. But there it a point where T16 is stronger due to the higher item levels.
    What do you mean as a rule of thumb? According to what?

    Upgrading to upgraded normal gear (from heroic upgraded) is an 18 item level increase - the stats will provide you with a 5+% increase in healing done (increase to mastery while maintaining hbp) while the 4p bonus from t15 is only an average of an 8% increase to rejuv, at the cost of 2 set bonuses that very rarely overheal.

    As for meter padding, unfortunately your guild don't keep logs so I can't compare, but my rejuv on most heroic fights sits on about 55-59% overheal (except fights like Nour, solo healing gate at dark shamans, and malk) while accounting for about 30-35% of my healing. My healing touch use and spark of life hover around 20-30% overheal and provide around 5-8% of my healing done. From this alone, it is pretty easy to see that the extra stats and benefit of set bonuses are more useful to my all round healing than to that single spell.

    I'm not trying to say you're wrong, because obviously people prefer a different playstyle, but I'm fed up with people claiming that t15 is still king in 10m raiding when it isn't. Feel free to disagree, but show me some kind of evidence when you do.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rekkiem View Post
    What do you mean as a rule of thumb? According to what?
    That's just what I took away from the calculations. I don't remember any exact results, just when it's beneficial to switch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rekkiem View Post
    Upgrading to upgraded normal gear (from heroic upgraded) is an 18 item level increase - the stats will provide you with a 5+% increase in healing done (increase to mastery while maintaining hbp) while the 4p bonus from t15 is only an average of an 8% increase to rejuv, at the cost of 2 set bonuses that very rarely overheal.
    First, 4pT15 is a (edit) 20% increase, no idea why you think 8%. That means even with high overheal this adds a lot healing.
    Second, the important thing is not how much overheal you get in low-healing situations, but what you get when that heal is really needed. Most bosses have phases with high / low healing, and you should only consider the situations where healing is important.
    Third, you're completely leaving out the 2pT15 bonus in your evaluation. (I don't give up 4p for 2 set bonuses, there's 2p as well.)

    Sage mender does not add anything to your HPS, actually each time you use it in a high damage situation, you are lowering your HPS. It's a great utility (and mana saver), but nothing whatsoever about HPS - casting a Rejuv instead (or actually like 1.2 Rejuvs) produces a lot more raw output.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rekkiem View Post
    As for meter padding, unfortunately your guild don't keep logs so I can't compare, but my rejuv on most heroic fights sits on about 55-59% overheal (except fights like Nour, solo healing gate at dark shamans, and malk) while accounting for about 30-35% of my healing. My healing touch use and spark of life hover around 20-30% overheal and provide around 5-8% of my healing done. From this alone, it is pretty easy to see that the extra stats and benefit of set bonuses are more useful to my all round healing than to that single spell.
    Our logs are private, but of course everyone has high overheal numbers for Rejuv, you'd be doing something wrong if you didn't. However that's the wrong way to look at it. Take an easy boss as an example, Iron Juggernaut hc. I have ~50% overheal on Rejuv, but during P2 (where healing matters), it's much less (20-25%). During this phase, stronger Rejuvs are much more valuable than a instant/free HT.

    About meter padding: I don't understand your logic on this. IMO, using Sage Mender could be seen as meter padding much more than Rejuv, because with an instant HT you often sniper healing from other healers / hots while Rejuv heals people up slowly. How you could say that Rejuv is meter padding is completely beyond me.

    Given that your calculations only include 50% of the 4pT15 bonus and ignore the 2pT15 bonus, I guess we can agree that it's not worth making the switch as you suggested.

    Edit: Just realized a mistake, with 13k haste 4pT15 gives 20% increase to Rejuv. 16% is with 3k haste. Yes it's that strong.
    Last edited by Thalur; 2013-10-23 at 01:52 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    Sage mender does not add anything to your HPS, actually each time you use it in a high damage situation, you are lowering your HPS. It's a great utility (and mana saver), but nothing whatsoever about HPS - casting a Rejuv instead (or actually like 1.2 Rejuvs) produces a lot more raw output.
    I don't really understand this line of thinking. Healing is about keeping your raid alive, not getting on top of the meters. If an instant HT keeps a person alive where a rejuv wouldn't, didn't you just do a better job as a healer? Tons of bosses in SoO require healing on select targets rather than just spamming rejuvs on everyone. In predictable heavy raid aoe situations I understand that more powerful rejuvs are better, but that doesn't apply that often in SoO.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Daear View Post
    I don't really understand this line of thinking. Healing is about keeping your raid alive, not getting on top of the meters. If an instant HT keeps a person alive where a rejuv wouldn't, didn't you just do a better job as a healer? Tons of bosses in SoO require healing on select targets rather than just spamming rejuvs on everyone. In predictable heavy raid aoe situations I understand that more powerful rejuvs are better, but that doesn't apply that often in SoO.
    Immerseus Split Phase (being able to slow healing adds toward the end can help keep the raid from just falling over dead)
    Protectors (assuming you save He for the third Desperate Measures)
    Norushen
    Galakras Phase 2 (nothing really to heal in phase 1 that favors burst or aoe)
    Iron Juggernaut
    Dark Shamans (assuming you're not doing it the cheese-easy way, otherwise nothing that favors burst or aoe)
    Malkorok
    Thok
    Garrosh

    All of the above fights have extended periods of time where increased aoe throughput from T15 can trump the individual burst nature of T16. However I do agree with others that if you're primarily raiding 10 man you don't need to feel obligated to hold onto T15 stuff unless you're trying to 1 heal fights as a Resto Druid. As for 25 I'll probably replace my 543 T15 gear (do need to pick up T15 heroic chest at some point) when I get at least 2 heroic T16 pieces but considering other Vanq users benefit so much more from their T16 gear than Resto Druids do I'm not in any rush to get my T16 stuff.

  11. #11
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rekkiem View Post
    Ditch the t15 as soon as you can. The t16 increased rejuv is mostly overheal, and you make up for that 8% increase through stats alone. Furthermore, the t16 bonuses are brilliant, particularly in 10m where you will get a lot of use out of them.
    If your rejuvenation is mostly overhealing, everyone is evidently at full health anyway and it doesn't matter how you gear. If you mean that the last few ticks of rejuvenation usually overheal, you either have too many healers or you are using rejuvenation wrong. You should be pre-HoTing people when you know heavy damage is incoming and you shouldn't top people off if they have HoTs and no further damage is incoming for a while. Rejuvenation overhealing also isn't entirely wasted, as it gets absorbed by your mushroom (if you don't actually detonate your mushroom regularly, that's another case of you doing it wrong, not an example of 4T15 being bad).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Immerseus Split Phase (being able to slow healing adds toward the end can help keep the raid from just falling over dead)
    Protectors (assuming you save He for the third Desperate Measures)
    Norushen
    Galakras Phase 2 (nothing really to heal in phase 1 that favors burst or aoe)
    Iron Juggernaut
    Dark Shamans (assuming you're not doing it the cheese-easy way, otherwise nothing that favors burst or aoe)
    Malkorok
    Thok
    Garrosh
    Add Sha of Pride to that list, as Swelling Pride is on a timer. Also add Nazgrim to that list, as his Warsong is very predictable and hits hard. Blackfuse involves very predictable AoE damage pulses from the shredders' Overload. Paragons also have a lot of damage that's fairly predictable if you know the mechanics.

    So every single fight in SoO involves significant predictable AoE damage.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  12. #12
    People are definitely mis-mathing the boost from 4t15.

    Rejuv ticks go
    1.00x (tick1)
    1.06x (tick2)
    1.1236x (tick3)
    1.1910x (tick4)
    1.2625x (tick5)
    1.3382x (tick6)

    At 13163+ haste, that's all the ticks you get. So to take an average over the 6 ticks, each one is 1.1626x normal strength.
    With 3043+ haste, you get an average of 1.1274x normal strength.

    However, the big caveat: the strongest ticks occur at the back-end of the rejuv, which means that in situations where there is not constant raid damage going out, the bigger ticks will be pure overheal. When someone has only 3~ rejuv ticks of deficit, I'm still going to cast a rejuv, which means a good amount of the time my rejuvs aren't actually benefiting in any way from the set bonus. Sure, the extra overheal will be contributed to a later mushroom bloom, assuming I can put the bloom to good use. But that's a big assumption--chances are a good amount of the captured overhealing is going to waste because of fight particulars.

    I find that the extra efflo target is not a major bonus in 10-man. A significant portion of the time there will only be 1 or 2 damaged people in the mushroom, and the rest is lost as overheal.

    On the other hand, both 2 and 4T16 bonuses are pretty solid, if not quite as meter-paddy. WG is a good spell to cast when more than 3 people have a non-trivial deficit--this now front-loads an additional small heal which is just as gravy as the initial rejuv tick was when they added it back in t8. And Sage Mender basically ticks up to 5 every 45 seconds or so, which means I have effectively an extra nature's swiftness in my pocket, a wonderful bonus for clutch healing.

    I would agree with the sentiment that there's no *rush* to get 4T16--dps 4-set are really big this tier--but I think it is a solid upgrade from 4HT15 in 10 once it is available.
    Last edited by Jurik; 2013-10-23 at 05:33 PM.

  13. #13
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    However, the big caveat: the strongest ticks occur at the back-end of the rejuv, which means that in situations where there is not constant raid damage going out, the bigger ticks will be pure overheal.
    See the post above yours. This should never be a concern. If you're not letting Rejuvenation tick, you're wasting healing and you either have too many healers or too much spirit. If the person won't take any damage in the next ten seconds then there's no point in topping them off, and if they will take damage in the next ten seconds then the spell won't overheal. You also shouldn't just be using Rejuvenation reactively, but should be proactively pre-HoTing people to deal with burst damage. Especially if using NV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    When someone has only 3~ rejuv ticks of deficit...
    If someone only has 3 Rejuvenation ticks worth of missing health, won't be taking any damage for the next 12 seconds, and you have no bigger problems to worry about, all your gearing choices are irrelevant anyway. Worry about the times when the raid is actually taking damage, and stop trying to optimize how efficienctly you can heal people up after the priest casts a stamina buff after a wipe.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  14. #14
    I'll give you a for real answer. You on the same progression as me Flemdawgheal - Windrunner.
    I have a 580 double upgraded heroic WF nazgrim trinket. It is absolute shit. heals maybe 4-6mil on a fight with int proc.
    My 540 non upgraded flex Thok trinket healed 10mil last night on galakras. It isn't a passive trinket at all... It has an int proc. But baby when you red line it on a stacked fight it is OP as balls.

    You are fortunate enough to have HLG and DSOD. The 2 main mana regen trinkets with static int.

    Looks like your next boss is going to be Thok. Use thok's trinket for thok progression, and then either a passive trinket like Sha's or a mana regen like DSOD.
    Keep your t15 4pc for thok progression. After that you should have enough heroic tier to replace it with t16.

    Your gear is good. You've reached your haste BP in old heroic tier. You have a regen trinket. You should be fine. Just min max the current fight and gather raw data on the sets and trinkets yourself and your set.

    just my 2 cents

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    If someone only has 3 Rejuvenation ticks worth of missing health, won't be taking any damage for the next 12 seconds, and you have no bigger problems to worry about, all your gearing choices are irrelevant anyway. Worry about the times when the raid is actually taking damage, and stop trying to optimize how efficienctly you can heal people up after the priest casts a stamina buff after a wipe.
    How do you know they're not going to take more damage for 12 seconds?

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    Right.

    You should rejuv them once they have a ~3 tick deficit (that is about 100k deficit, around 85% life). If they do take more damage, great, your rejuv will hit them overall for an extra 16% healing. But in many fights, with some frequency, they don't take damage beyond the small deficit, so the extra healing given by 4T15 is mostly irrelevant.

    So, despite 30-40% of healing coming from rejuv, a significant portion of that healing is insensitive to the 16% output gain of 4T15. Even if you say optimistically that 80% of the time, the extra healing from 4-set ends up being useful (either directly, or by contributing to a useful mushroom bloom later), and 40% of your healing is from rejuv, you have a net gain of 0.8 * 0.4 * 0.16 = 0.05, or about 5% output. That's less than the raw stat gain from 4T16 normal over 4T15, without taking into account the T16 set bonuses (which together generally account for around 5% of my healing).

    Summary: if you want to justify 4T15, especially in 10-man where having 4 useful targets for efflo is a dicey proposition at best, you'd better be damn good at predicting which 100k-deficit players to heal and which ones are not going to be targeted by random boss damage effects and should heal up passively.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    Summary: if you want to justify 4T15, especially in 10-man where having 4 useful targets for efflo is a dicey proposition at best, you'd better be damn good at predicting which 100k-deficit players to heal and which ones are not going to be targeted by random boss damage effects and should heal up passively.
    Don't waste your energy.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    How do you know they're not going to take more damage for 12 seconds?

    .
    .
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    Right.
    Because by this point people doing progression know the fights well enough that they can anticipate when major bursts of damage go out. Only real random damage I can think of is mostly people standing in the wrong spot (manifestation as they spawn for example).

    But as I said earlier; you're probably right for 10 man. For 25 man the T15 bonuses are still very competitive.
    Last edited by Trubo; 2013-10-24 at 02:55 AM.

  18. #18
    Could someone explain to me how the sha trinket is the best in slot?
    I'm currently at 547 ilvl and my stats are following:
    Haste: 3690
    Matery: 8621
    Spirit: 14569

    The 7% stat boost (which is actually about 6.6% on 2/2 flex trinket), but let's count 7% would give me:
    603 haste
    258 mastery
    1020 spirit
    for total of ~1900 total stats that is not going to get much higher since I'm almost maxed out on gear I can obtain
    some random int proc (nigh useless, but ok, 11k int with 1/6 uptime means about 1800 static int)

    543 Contemplation of Chi-Ji gives
    1785 int all the time
    9k spirit with 1/6 uptime (1500 static spirit)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
    Could someone explain to me how the sha trinket is the best in slot?
    It helps people reach the 13163 haste breakpoint while keeping several other socket bonuses. Also increases critical heals by 7%. With siegecrafter trinket or HLG you won't need other regen trinkets.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    Rejuv ticks go
    1.00x (tick1)
    1.06x (tick2)
    1.1236x (tick3)
    1.1910x (tick4)
    1.2625x (tick5)
    1.3382x (tick6)
    This is wrong. You completely forgot about the instant heal, which also counts to the ticks so what you see (16%) is with 3k haste. For 13k haste, you need to add another tick at 1.42x which gives you +20%.

    Taken directly from my logs:
    Code:
    [19:32:22.835] Thâldor casts Rejuvenation on Sikerimseni
    [19:32:23.081] Sikerimseni gains Rejuvenation from Thâldor
    [19:32:23.081] Thâldor Rejuvenation Sikerimseni +0 (O: 0, O: 32553)
    [19:32:25.264] Thâldor Rejuvenation Sikerimseni +1002 (O: 0, O: 33505)
    [19:32:27.432] Thâldor Rejuvenation Sikerimseni +22876 (O: 0, O: 13701)
    [19:32:29.620] Thâldor Rejuvenation Sikerimseni +0 (O: 0, O: 38771)
    [19:32:31.784] Thâldor Rejuvenation Sikerimseni +0 (O: 0, O: 41097)
    [19:32:33.995] Thâldor Rejuvenation Sikerimseni +0 (O: 0, O: 43564)
    [19:32:36.138] Thâldor Rejuvenation Sikerimseni +0 (O: 0, O: 46177)
    [19:32:36.138] Thâldor's Rejuvenation fades from Sikerimseni

    The 4pT15 is really that strong. Also, during BL it increases Rejuv by 24%. SotF Rejuvs are increased by 45%, SotF under BL by 55% (final critical ticks can do over 200k healing in that scenario).
    I'm not saying you should never switch to T16, but people are really underestimating the value of T15. It's very very strong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rekkiem View Post
    It helps people reach the 13163 haste breakpoint while keeping several other socket bonuses. Also increases critical heals by 7%. With siegecrafter trinket or HLG you won't need other regen trinkets.
    Also some other things: talking about best in slot means you have to look at the heroic item not LFR, so the stat increase is 8.51285%. Also in best in slot gear, you have a lot more secondary stats than in your calculation (I already have 5k more than you at 558, and I'm far away from best in slot).

    So why is it best in slot? The stats it gives (3-4k for BiS) are over budged already, add to that the added critical healing. It's also the only trinket besides Siegecrafter that provides Regen (in form of spirit), and the crappy int proc is also present on all alternatives.

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