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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    What is an example of consistency?
    Crit is too random
    Haste increases throughput at the expense of increased mana consumption
    Mastery doesn't proc on certain heals, the most noteworthy of which is EF, which is still the most popular talent for healing.
    Int boosts base heals, which in turns boosts mastery shields. Boosts throughput at no expense of increased mana consumption, but not as random as crit since a significant part of its weight is tied to spellpower rather than its crit boost.

    Also, we already get a decent amount of secondary stats off base armor this late into the expac. Enough for us to start boosting our base healing amount to actually benefit from these multipliers.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Like it buffing the EF HoT and enabling better burst healing for things like Thok


    I took the raw healing for LoD and the Raw healing of the EF hot. Added a gem worth of Intellect, Mastery, or Haste and compared the outputs. I have factored in all raid buffs and modifiers to things like Intellect.

    Haste is harder to conceptualize but if you math out the number of extra ticks you get over a period of time you can get a solid number. As an example of 90 seconds of burst (Thok) 0.9% haste (320 haste gem) adds 1.1 ticks of EF (if you have 3 rolling with 3rd haste BP). That value ends up being 33k healing. 160 Int only adds 14k in extra hot size over 129 ticks.

    Is it extra healing when you want it? Larger IH heals are > anything else as shields are king and have the lowest over healing. And 1 extra ticks of healing hardly seems wasteful.

    Edit: Lost a zero
    Last edited by bouchbagette; 2013-10-24 at 11:48 PM.
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  3. #23
    Personally, Haste will for sure give you a higher throughput than Mastery. But the thing with haste is, you need to stack a lot of mana, and constantly spamming raid heals like HR. None of the pathetic Holy Lights, legit spamming HR to be better than Mastery. If your play style is just HS and Holy Light off GCD then Mastery will be your best bet. Like others have pointed out, Spirit is what you're comfortable with. People run from anywhere between like 12k-17k Spirit, and its all choice. There is no "optimal" Spirit cap and stacking it makes you lose out on a ton of INT and Mastery.

    Lets say I have 40% mastery with raid buffs
    INT - Gives spell power = makes your heals hit harder
    Mastery - 40% of my all my heals will become an absorb

    Typically if you Holy Light and it crits for about 120k your actual healing done will be 120k + 48k absorb = 168k heal with one Holy Light (no overhealing). Haste is just too inconsistent, so personally I prefer Mastery.

    Right now my build is 16k spirit > 7170 haste > mastery > crit > haste. I'm gemming straight INT gems because at about 40%+ mastery, gemming it only boosts it by a couple % and I just feel like the INT will be more worth it.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Light's Hammer is good for more than just thok. It depends on your guilds strats for fights.
    I know what you're saying but I'm basing this on what I used, I found having a small radius AoE with a rather large CD that people can easily move out of on the *majority* of fight's a negative. I also prefered the "burst" healing aspect of holy prism, Light's hammer is still good for keeping IM going but if only a few people are going to benefit then you're better off going with Holy Prism.

    I'm obviously taking about 10m here, and I can't see any other fight outside of Thok that's going to benefit the max amount of people for the full duration, you could make a case for it being worth using on Sha of pride, but with the swelling pride raid wide damage going out I much prefer popping my Holy Prism at that point to top people up pronto. Galakras last phase if whole raid stacks, yes would be decent but not as effective than holy prism until that point.

  5. #25
    Keyboard Turner Goobadin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    I took the raw healing for LoD and the Raw healing of the EF hot. Added a gem worth of Intellect, Mastery, or Haste and compared the outputs. I have factored in all raid buffs and modifiers to things like Intellect.

    [snip]

    Is it extra healing when you want it? Larger IH heals are > anything else as shields are king and have the lowest over healing. And 1 extra ticks of healing hardly seems wasteful.
    I'm curious why you didn't look at the entire aspect of the heal? Doesn't INT increase the Initial Heal, by extension the IH Shield, AND then the HoT? The bonus from INT would be increases in all of those areas. In that sense, it does seem to satisfy a niche between Haste and Mastery. Also, seeing as there are reforge limitations, I imagine there is a certain "finite" resources mentality is at play.

    edit: I suppose your chart was in direct response to their HoT argument. That said, I think the argument for INT Gems would be best laid out by my comments. =\
    Last edited by Goobadin; 2013-10-24 at 04:55 AM.

  6. #26
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    On a side note, since I swapped to SH for Thok, I changed all my int gems to mastery gems. Anecdotally, I saw very little change (zero gear upgrades also between then and here) on H Malkorok using 7010 Haste for EF, compared to having int gems - a 5% loss, but I would not say that's statistically very significant at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobadin View Post
    I'm curious why you didn't look at the entire aspect of the heal? Doesn't INT increase the Initial Heal, by extension the IH Shield, AND then the HoT? The bonus from INT would be increases in all of those areas.
    His spreadsheet should take that into account, most of our spreadsheets (even my terrible, incorrect, needs-to-be-worked-on one) do so. They should also take into account the crit % bonus you get from int.

  7. #27
    Keyboard Turner Goobadin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post

    His spreadsheet should take that into account, most of our spreadsheets (even my terrible, incorrect, needs-to-be-worked-on one) do so. They should also take into account the crit % bonus you get from int.
    Yah I posted on his blog as well. I think INT satisfies a nice in-between for Haste and Mastery. It's actual value, IMO, from his charts should account for BOTH EF HoT gains as well as LOD Gains. Which would put a 160 INT Gem alot closer to a 320 Mastery Gem.

    I'm not sure where things fall and it's something I've been curious about for a while now. Hope to gain some insight on it all. =D

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobadin View Post
    I'm curious why you didn't look at the entire aspect of the heal? Doesn't INT increase the Initial Heal, by extension the IH Shield, AND then the HoT? The bonus from INT would be increases in all of those areas. In that sense, it does seem to satisfy a niche between Haste and Mastery. Also, seeing as there are reforge limitations, I imagine there is a certain "finite" resources mentality is at play.

    edit: I suppose your chart was in direct response to their HoT argument. That said, I think the argument for INT Gems would be best laid out by my comments. =\
    The main argument was Int vs Haste vs Mastery, and in that case its not something you need to show all the end results for, as we already know Mastery > Int for EF Init & LoD, so in the case we're talking about you only need to look at the HoT itself and a direct comparison of Haste and Int.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobadin View Post
    Yah I posted on his blog as well. I think INT satisfies a nice in-between for Haste and Mastery. It's actual value, IMO, from his charts should account for BOTH EF HoT gains as well as LOD Gains. Which would put a 160 INT Gem alot closer to a 320 Mastery Gem.

    I'm not sure where things fall and it's something I've been curious about for a while now. Hope to gain some insight on it all. =D
    You can't include both in the same calculation though, as they're mutually exclusive for the most part.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    *numberz*

    I took the raw healing for LoD and the Raw healing of the EF hot. Added a gem worth of Intellect, Mastery, or Haste and compared the outputs. I have factored in all raid buffs and modifiers to things like Intellect.

    Haste is harder to conceptualize but if you math out the number of extra ticks you get over a period of time you can get a solid number. As an example of 90 seconds of burst (Thok) 0.9% haste (320 haste gem) adds 1.1 ticks of EF (if you have 3 rolling with 3rd haste BP). That value ends up being 33k healing. 160 Int only adds 14k in extra hot size over 129 ticks.

    Is it extra healing when you want it? Larger IH heals are > anything else as shields are king and have the lowest over healing. And 1 extra ticks of healing hardly seems wasteful.

    Edit: Lost a zero
    I think you'd have to calculate it somewhere in the region of 200 Int vs 320 Mastery due to how our socket bonuses have played out this tier, and you can't just ignore how many of them are Reds. I still believe Intellect is superior though in a large haste (2-3 BP) build compared to Mastery, as its giving you a vastly more consistent flow of healing, which is what we're not only trying to achieve with the spec, but also how Blizzard has designed a lot of the mechanics this tier, and its also going to apply to things like Beacon and Chi-Ji's proc which both contribute greatly to our smoothing effect on the raid.

  9. #29
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I think you'd have to calculate it somewhere in the region of 200 Int vs 320 Mastery due to how our socket bonuses have played out this tier, and you can't just ignore how many of them are Reds.
    He does not, because if you preserve socket bonus by using Orange over Red twice, you're making the same tradeoff (160 Int vs. 320 Mastery).

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I still believe Intellect is superior though in a large haste (2-3 BP) build compared to Mastery, as its giving you a vastly more consistent flow of healing...
    That is what I am trying to answer. I don't have a side I am rooting for. Just want to make an informed decision. The point of the table was to see what the actual healing is based on a gems worth or stats. For the example chart above I left out the initial heal/beacon because I have already run the numbers on the full picture(full rotation with scaling stats). Trying to find an example where Int would yield better output. So for LoD+IM mastery wins. For EF hot healing, Haste wins. For the whole rotation I have stat weights already calculated which shows INT < 2x Haste/Mast.

    Knowledgeable skilled healers in this forum/raid world are choosing Int and I am just trying to find math to back it up. So far I can't come to that conclusion because if it is more healing shouldn't we be able to show it? Wow is a game of numbers based on stats. That is why we care about gear. You still have to execute your rotations and turn it into real healing but you are limited by what your stats are. I think the counter arguments for SH over EF in the other thread for Thok are really valid. There is negligible healing difference with a vastly different ease of execution working with a mechanic that doesn't favor uneven healing (EF up front heal, limit of 2-4 EF hot targets).

    BTW here is my Selfless Healer stat wt. Chart:

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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post


    I took the raw healing for LoD and the Raw healing of the EF hot. Added a gem worth of Intellect, Mastery, or Haste and compared the outputs. I have factored in all raid buffs and modifiers to things like Intellect.

    Haste is harder to conceptualize but if you math out the number of extra ticks you get over a period of time you can get a solid number. As an example of 90 seconds of burst (Thok) 0.9% haste (320 haste gem) adds 1.1 ticks of EF (if you have 3 rolling with 3rd haste BP). That value ends up being 33k healing. 160 Int only adds 14k in extra hot size over 129 ticks.

    Is it extra healing when you want it? Larger IH heals are > anything else as shields are king and have the lowest over healing. And 1 extra ticks of healing hardly seems wasteful.

    Edit: Lost a zero
    Little bit confused about the third row of EF if you could explain...why is 1 tick 2,489 and 3 ticks 7,467? At first I thought you mean 87,467 but that didn't fit with the 2,240 increase.

    I think people are saying 'consistently' simply because intellect is factored in to the calculation for all of our spells whereas mastery has been left out of the HoT part of EF's healing which is quite a bit more than the base heal which does apply IH. One other thing which isn't included in these kinds of tables is the overhealing. In my experience from looking at how much the HoT portion of EF heals now, it is almost all or none of it going to overhealing and more often the case, that the HoT heal gets sniped by other healers (100% overhealing). This results in zero IH. Furthermore, the potion of the HoT that is going completely to effective healing (0 overhealing) will benefit only from intellect and not mastery. Just taking a pure calculation of the healing before considering anything else may offer a skewed picture of what it looks like. Also, the spec is not comparing just 1 intellect gem vs 1 haste gem so analyzing a part of the situation is going to give different results from looking at the big picture. It's a spec based on having a greater amount of spell power and critical strike which plays in to some of our other skills vs a spec based on additional ticks of a HoT (of which 50% or more go to complete waste) and increased casting speed (which actually is pretty nice to play with and a manageable amount of it is viable at our spirit levels).

  12. #32
    The best stat for holy palas is reforging for disc priest with a little resto druid gemming.

  13. #33
    Guess it all comes down to preference. If you go for the 7170 haste cap, as most 10m paladins seem to, going for full int gems makes more sense. However, if you stick with the 3506 cap and you have PPoP, it makes more sense to me to gem mastery > int. Evening out the two stats is obviously important as many of you state in your posts, and with so many intellect procs I just prefer the close to 55% raid buffed mastery. I feel the intellect/7170 cap with EF spam kind of feels less valuable in 25m with so many absorbs and other hots flying around.

  14. #34
    High Overlord Berianther's Avatar
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    I've tried all 3 gemming choices for EF, and personally don't see any significant difference, at least on 25 mans. It comes down to how much overhealing you do in the fight and that has to do with how many or what classes your other healers are. Personal skill also plays a large part in this.

    Now for SH, even on H Thok, when mastery seems to be ahead assuming that HR/LoD hits max number of targets, it isn't that significantly different from int. You're more likely to mess up on your CD rotation on that fight (either you use your cd when others are popping theirs, or you get interrupted mid cd) than any reforge/gemming decision you do.
    Last edited by Berianther; 2013-10-25 at 12:03 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    Little bit confused about the third row of EF if you could explain...why is 1 tick 2,489 and 3 ticks 7,467? At first I thought you mean 87,467 but that didn't fit with the 2,240 increase.
    I was crit by careless/being dumb. 747 is the number that maters. I had oversight on it because I focused on the 90 sec example that was correct. The wonky number should have put up a red flag. Fixed now.

    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    One other thing which isn't included in these kinds of tables is the overhealing
    The table was a specific example. I have charts for full rotations figuring over-heal and inter-stat relationships that clearly show gemming pure intellect to produce lower output. This micro output example was to find a place where pure int goes ahead but it didn't show that.

    Our healing output is not a pure result of spell power/intellect. I think the common argument for intellect is that it effects everything, and that haste/mastery is situational. But it is crazy to say Haste/Mastery only helps us sometimes. If you look at logs mastery shields and the beneift of faster casts/HP generation/EF ticks is not just sitational, it is a major part of our output.

    If you look at logs from EF spec you will nearly always see EF and IH as 50%+ of the healing, number 1 and 2 of the total healing done. Haste scales with EF better than Int. You can see that above. And mastery scales better with IH than intellect. That is also shown in the Selfless Healer example. You are loosing stat points by gemming intellect over 2ndary stats. More stats = more output and I don't buy the "but that output is situational and over-healing" because that healing is clearly seen as effective total heals in our logs.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    I am curious. I have stayed out gemming stat wt. arguments but I am just going to put myself out there. How are people basing their Int > Mast/Haste for gemming conclusions? I have tried hard to find a way that makes Int > 2 Mast/Haste and I just cant do it. Some very progressed pallys are using Int gems but mathematically it just doesn't makes sense. Obviously we are not talking 50% differences in throughput. But for people that are not crazy skilled or have crazy hours to play min/max'ing is helpful and I just don't get the go Red or go home gemming decisions.
    Currently gemmed int for Malkorok and Thok, prefer mastery for all other fights.

    This is because these two fights depend so heavily on EF, and mastery does little for EF.

    It depends somewhat on who you're healing with, but I find absorbs to be too situationally important ... even if haste or int were mathematically higher throughput, ignoring overhealing, shields are such a powerful mechanic that I'd probably want to use mastery anyway. HPS isn't everything.

    *edit* also going for 7170 with int gemming for the above reasons, I don't go for it when mastery gemming.
    Last edited by PalawinFC; 2013-10-25 at 02:32 AM.

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