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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    I could just imagine the fury in fan forums if they did. Everyone who hates the game would feel fueled by it and rip into everything else about the game. I can't say I blame them.

    Referring back the post your quoting: I'm a big fan of people who post the product life cycle image. They don't talk about what caused the rise to tip when it did, they don't talk about iterating on a product being a way to ameliorate some of those losses, they don't talk about the crest to crest changes in various expansions. They throw the thing up like it's a piece of information and not a tool for interpreting information. It's like people who talk about supply and demand and don't realize that it's a basic chart that's part of a system of charts that all interrelate and are derived with a few basic assumptions about the market that can't ever be perfectly true.

    It's why google makes such a crummy teacher. you ask a question and it spits out the answer (hopefully) with none of the background of that information.
    Very good observations re: life cycle.

    And.. at the end of the day, there were a lot of people who simply didn't like Pandaria and/or pandas. There was unrest at the announcement, unease during the beta cycle, and finally on release, people gave it a chance... but they leveled to 90 and found themselves no happier about it than they had been upon announcement. Within 3 months post-release Pandaria was sinking hard and hasn't recovered. Blizzard has since tried to fix some of the problems they created in 5.0 (the terribad rep/daily grind, for example). But it was too late, a lot of people had already given up and moved on. A lot of people still look on Pandaria with a jaundiced eye and won't come back for a content patch, but perhaps can be lured back by a whole new 6.0 expansion that promises to reset things a bit.

    This Blizzcon will be fascinating. A lot has changed since the last one. The last time we had a Blizzcon, the game had suffered some sub loss, but nothing like what has happened since then. And although the most hardcore of hardcore fanboys and girls attend Blizzcon and hence the local audience will be rapt and adoring, they have to be aware that every single word they say will be reproduced for the masses, and will either cement peoples' determination to stay away, or convince them to give WoW another shot.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by hailey View Post
    Generally speaking the trend towards short term instant gratification gameplay had long term player retention ramifications
    Is that a roundabout way to say that WoW raiding is on the boring side

    What's the worst that can happen to you ...

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by goblingirl View Post
    This Blizzcon will be fascinating. A lot has changed since the last one. The last time we had a Blizzcon, the game had suffered some sub loss, but nothing like what has happened since then. And although the most hardcore of hardcore fanboys and girls attend Blizzcon and hence the local audience will be rapt and adoring, they have to be aware that every single word they say will be reproduced for the masses, and will either cement peoples' determination to stay away, or convince them to give WoW another shot.
    I think its fair to say that alot of ex-Wow players keep an eye on what gets announced at Blizzcon... this gives them an excellent platform to advertise what their future plans are.... so it better be good!

  4. #424
    My 2 Cents. I've been meaning to write something up about this (see site below) but have gotten side tracked actually PLAYING WoW.

    Simply put, the MMO Market is Over Saturated. Let's break this down a bit to see what i mean. Keep in mind, this MMO list is by no means 'compete,' this is just a list of the 'bigger' MMOs of recent note.

    World of Warcraft November 23, 2004

    The Matrix Online March 22, 2005
    Guild Wars April 26, 2005
    MapleStory May 11, 2005
    Club Penguin October 24, 2005
    Fly For Fun December 25, 2005

    Blood Wars January 8, 2006
    Dungeons and Dragons Online February 28, 2006

    World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade January 16, 2007
    Vanguard: Saga of Heroes January 30, 2007
    Lord Of The Rings Online April 24, 2007
    Tabula Rasa November 2, 2007
    Fiesta Online November 7, 2007

    Age of Conan: Unchained May 20, 2008
    Wizard101 September 2, 2008
    Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning September 18, 2008
    World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King November 13, 2008

    Runes of Magic March 19, 2009
    Hello Kitty Online July 1, 2009
    Champions Online September 1, 2009
    Aion: The Tower of Eternity September 22, 2009
    Fallen Earth Online September 22, 2009
    Spiral Knights November 12, 2009
    League of Legends October 27, 2009

    Star Trek Online February 2, 2010
    Heroes of Newerth May 12, 2010
    All Points Bulletin June 29, 2010
    Final Fantasy XIV September 22, 2010
    Vindictus October 13, 2010
    World of Warcraft: Cataclysm December 7, 2010

    DC Universe Online January 11, 2011
    Battlestar Glaacitca Online February 8, 2011
    Rift March 1, 2011
    World of Tanks April 12, 2011
    Realm of the Mad God June 20, 2011
    Minecraft November 18, 2011
    Star Wars: The Old Republic December 20, 2011

    The Exiled Realm of Arborea May 1, 2012
    Blade & Soul June 30, 2012
    The Secret World July 3, 2012
    Phantasy Star Online II July 4, 2012
    Guild Wars 2 August 28, 2012
    World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria September 25, 2012
    Planetside 2 November 20, 2012
    HAWKEN December 12, 2012

    Path of Exile January 23, 2013
    Wizardry Online January 30, 2013
    Warframe March 25, 2013
    Defiance April 2, 2013
    Darkfall: Unholy Wars April 16, 2013
    Scarlet Blade Online April 20th, 2013
    Marvel Heroes June 4, 2013
    Neverwinter June 20, 2013
    Cube World July 2, 2013
    Firefall July 9, 2013
    DOTA II July 9, 2013
    Age of Wushu July 18, 2013
    *Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn August 27, 2013
    *SMITE Quarter 3, 2013
    *MechWarrior Online September 17, 2013

    Now remember this isn't a complete list. It's just a list of the 'bigger' named MMOs. What's interesting?

    Pre-BC MMOs Launched: 7
    This was in 26 months, or 1 MMO every 3.7 months

    Pre-Wrath MMOs Launched: 7
    This was in 23 months, or 1 MMO every 3.3 months

    Pre-Cata MMOs Launched: 12
    This was in 25 months, or 1 MMO every 2.1 months.

    Pre-Mists MMOs Launched: 12
    This was in 22 months, or 1 MMO every 1.8 months.

    Post-Mists MMOs Launched: 17+
    This has been in (currently) 10 months (to the end of Aug), or 1 MMO every 0.6 months.

    When the game was growing, there was less than 10 MMOs launched during those X-pacs. Every X-pac there has been more and more MMOs launched during it, and therefore, more and more people going off to play it. Yes, not everyone will go and play Scarlet Blade Online, but if every MMO took say 100k from WoW in MoP ALONE that's 1.7 Million and counting. That's a low estimate, as obviously more players play FFXIV and GW2 and SWtOR and Rift.

    WoW's decline is simply because there's too much out there. In earlier years, it has to compete with DDO or LOTRO. That's a pretty short list.
    Last edited by willowe; 2013-11-01 at 03:42 PM.

    toomanyrifts.blogspot.ca || A Gaming Blog

  5. #425
    Age. Blizzard has a rather negative audience who consistently seem to look for a reason as to why subs drop, and these reasons typically boil down to a change that was made which the poster didn't like, but ultimately the reason for subscription drops is that this is a 10 year old game. Most people who played in vanilla now have family and career responsibilities that take away their time to play. Others just played for so long they were looking for something different. There is no magical reason that WoW is losing subscribers - and there is no magical solution to make it retain those subs - it simply is aging naturally.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Derajal View Post
    was never "ganked" ever on the isle of quel'thalas, nor did I ever say that I was, I was letting him know what the reason of it being added to WoW was in the first place, it was not meant to be a pvp zone, if it was it wouldn't have guards now would it? you retard.

    And no you moron, I know what the type of realms there are, before you started playing and will long after you die in a ditch.

    Infracted.
    Every contested zone is meant to be a PvP zone on a PvP server. The guards are there for the sake of protecting people getting quests, providing a small safe zone. Perhaps you failed to notice, but the rest of the isle was guard free, and the PvP was amazing. Sorry you were unable to cut it.

  7. #427
    I honestly think some people just don't have time for MMOs anymore.
    EVERYDAY I'M SHUFFLIN. ┏(-_-)┛┗(-_- )┓┗(-_-)┛┏(-_-)┓

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by willowe View Post
    My 2 Cents. I've been meaning to write something up about this (see site below) but have gotten side tracked actually PLAYING WoW.

    Simply put, the MMO Market is Over Saturated. Let's break this down a bit to see what i mean. Keep in mind, this MMO list is by no means 'compete,' this is just a list of the 'bigger' MMOs of recent note.

    World of Warcraft November 23, 2004

    The Matrix Online March 22, 2005
    Guild Wars April 26, 2005
    MapleStory May 11, 2005
    Club Penguin October 24, 2005
    Fly For Fun December 25, 2005

    Blood Wars January 8, 2006
    Dungeons and Dragons Online February 28, 2006

    World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade January 16, 2007
    Vanguard: Saga of Heroes January 30, 2007
    Lord Of The Rings Online April 24, 2007
    Tabula Rasa November 2, 2007
    Fiesta Online November 7, 2007

    Age of Conan: Unchained May 20, 2008
    Wizard101 September 2, 2008
    Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning September 18, 2008
    World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King November 13, 2008

    Runes of Magic March 19, 2009
    Hello Kitty Online July 1, 2009
    Champions Online September 1, 2009
    Aion: The Tower of Eternity September 22, 2009
    Fallen Earth Online September 22, 2009
    Spiral Knights November 12, 2009
    League of Legends October 27, 2009

    Star Trek Online February 2, 2010
    Heroes of Newerth May 12, 2010
    All Points Bulletin June 29, 2010
    Final Fantasy XIV September 22, 2010
    Vindictus October 13, 2010
    World of Warcraft: Cataclysm December 7, 2010

    DC Universe Online January 11, 2011
    Battlestar Glaacitca Online February 8, 2011
    Rift March 1, 2011
    World of Tanks April 12, 2011
    Realm of the Mad God June 20, 2011
    Minecraft November 18, 2011
    Star Wars: The Old Republic December 20, 2011

    The Exiled Realm of Arborea May 1, 2012
    Blade & Soul June 30, 2012
    The Secret World July 3, 2012
    Phantasy Star Online II July 4, 2012
    Guild Wars 2 August 28, 2012
    World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria September 25, 2012
    Planetside 2 November 20, 2012
    HAWKEN December 12, 2012

    Path of Exile January 23, 2013
    Wizardry Online January 30, 2013
    Warframe March 25, 2013
    Defiance April 2, 2013
    Darkfall: Unholy Wars April 16, 2013
    Scarlet Blade Online April 20th, 2013
    Marvel Heroes June 4, 2013
    Neverwinter June 20, 2013
    Cube World July 2, 2013
    Firefall July 9, 2013
    DOTA II July 9, 2013
    Age of Wushu July 18, 2013
    *Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn August 27, 2013
    *SMITE Quarter 3, 2013
    *MechWarrior Online September 17, 2013

    Now remember this isn't a complete list. It's just a list of the 'bigger' named MMOs. What's interesting?

    Pre-BC MMOs Launched: 7
    This was in 26 months, or 1 MMO every 3.7 months

    Pre-Wrath MMOs Launched: 7
    This was in 23 months, or 1 MMO every 3.3 months

    Pre-Cata MMOs Launched: 12
    This was in 25 months, or 1 MMO every 2.1 months.

    Pre-Mists MMOs Launched: 12
    This was in 22 months, or 1 MMO every 1.8 months.

    Post-Mists MMOs Launched: 17+
    This has been in (currently) 10 months (to the end of Aug), or 1 MMO every 0.6 months.

    When the game was growing, there was less than 10 MMOs launched during those X-pacs. Every X-pac there has been more and more MMOs launched during it, and therefore, more and more people going off to play it. Yes, not everyone will go and play Scarlet Blade Online, but if every MMO took say 100k from WoW in MoP ALONE that's 1.7 Million and counting. That's a low estimate, as obviously more players play FFXIV and GW2 and SWtOR and Rift.

    WoW's decline is simply because there's too much out there. In earlier years, it has to compete with DDO or LOTRO. That's a pretty short list.
    This is beautiful, thank you. That was another important insight to keep in mind, how not only the game ages yet remains static in its ancient core systems/gameplay incentives, but also accumulates dozens of competitors, in accelerating fashion over time, that alone aren't all that, but together, pose a serious challenge to the possibility of the playerbase all staying glued to wow.

    Of course as I reiterate, this in no way absolves Blizz of sub loss responsibility. It simply means there's 2 core 'groups of causes' ~ age & competition, and Blizz's unwillingness to take the moderate risk of making significant strives in adapting game systems towards emergent-gameplay-supporting dynamic content.
    >>> And then.. <<<

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Planetarism View Post

    Of course as I reiterate, this in no way absolves Blizz of sub loss responsibility.
    I don't like point fingers, but I have to agree, the responsibility really lies with blizzard, I know that may note be the most popular answer especially to anyone who idolizes a company, but they're responsible.. new expansion announced soon, and the the focus is not going to change.

    WoWis going to continue to provide exactly what it has done, in fact, even mores so, this expac is going to be more classic wow than any of the others.. io, wrong direction, they should be getting more radical not less. but then look at their reaction to new players modesl it has takken 5 years for them to see the need for this, and countless requests, they ekeep insisting it's not that big a deal, everyone that plays keeps telling them it matters to them.

    Thos that don't want it, almost 100% say that because they fear the new models might not be what they like.. blizzard latches onto the naysayers.

    This is what happens when you make decisions bsed on statistics rather than your gut, polls analysis have their place, and are a good source of information and can help formalize or shape perspective, but they are not gospel truth, and shoudln't be treated as such. Core developing team, shoudl go with their gut which woudl ahve been telling them since TBC, players wanted vastly improved models. And so you get the idea of what's part of the problem.

    There jus tseems to be a high level of denial sometimes, maybe like some fans, they get so immeresed, invovled in it, it comes at the cost of true perspective, they fail to see some obvious flaws becasue they can't step out and take a bird's eye, 3rd party, neutral view.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Planetarism View Post
    So true, & by 'bad decisions' this poster is referring I presume to things like LFR, RDF, or even cross-realm BGs or flying mounts/arenas(!) before that, all of which have contributed to some measure of playerbase social desensitization, reduced sense of belonging & actually caring about their gameplay. Even if Blizz wanted to remove those features, it's too late now. There'd be tons of players coming back, but waaay more actually quitting suddenly, this being the proverbial nail in the coffin on their late disenchantment with the state of the game. Indeed, for every sensible detractor to these accommodating, casual play convenience tools that make the gameworld 'smaller', there's a dozen people to be found who live & die by these features, that were born & raised spoiled w/ the game working this way, and taking that away from them would be catastrophic to their continued stay.

    There are significant differences between a full sandbox or 'sandpark' game, & a sandboxy themepark - WoW would benefit enormously from becoming a lot more of the latter than the near-full themepark it is now, but ironically enough, would not benefit as much from trying to be an actual sandbox or nearly such. In fact the latter wouldn't even be feasible, from a technical, financial, even legal (shareholders etc) point of view - this is exactly what happened with Star Wars Galaxies several years ago, what they call the 'Pre-CU disaster' (in reverse, of course - they had basically a sandbox design, & because WoW's themepark got SO explosively successful in 2004-2005, recklessly turned their game around to be a cheapened themepark). If they did that with WoW, turn a full themepark and its millions of subscribers relatively content with the current state of affairs, into a complete sandbox, that'd be just as irresponsible and backstabby as the SW:G Pre-CU failed moneygrubbing gambit, no matter how gloriously more dynamic & engaging the non-static gameplay naturally emergent from sandbox content is.

    See that's what I mean when I emphasize there are always ways to make emergent dynamic gameplay adjustments to a themepark design while not damaging/removing what is already existing, so fewer people complain, you didn't throw the baby w/ the bathwater to implement the sandboxy features. This touches upon what Ravenmoon said about 'raising an empire' etc, that type of play is absolutely engaging riotous fun and yet, just has a really hard time being realistically, holistically integrated into the aged systems of an old classic themepark like WoW. This may understandably seem terse of me to say or contradictory to what I'd always been advocating, but it's important because throughout the last decade in the reign of the themepark design in MMO space, time & again some very well-intentioned people have suggested that devs implement such radical sandbox features out & out, and it is unfortunately those outlandish suggestions that have emboldened dev teams to lump all dynamic, undirected, emergent content design into the same "unrealistic, out of touch with the 95% rest of themeparks' Halo/CoD-type playerbase" basket, thus leaving no room for more moderate steps in emergent sandbox gameplay to have any chance at the development table.

    Actual empire-building & permanent or even mid-term temporary political power shifts/NPC disappearances just doesn't mesh with what the devs & executives have had in mind for the core design of this game, for a long time. So you have to find ways to implement some fun stuff to do, or different ways to do existing stuff, that won't clash, but to the contrary, that will harmoniously meshwith the existing core vision for how the game's themepark systems have always functioned.

    For example, one of the ways I envisage dealing with the "..So I'm finally max-level.. what now? I mean, I was having so much stimulation, so much fun every level I was gaining, always a new spell/talent/glyph here, new items/power/feature there, and now, I'm just resigned to a much slower, repetitive gear treadmill till I gouge these eyes out to static boredom..?? =/" is the following :

    ~> XP costs when dying, but only under certain circumstances/in certain areas.
    ~> XP costs to do really engaging, designed-to-be-long-cooldowns things in the game, but mostly things that are cosmetic or affect world zones, not raid readiness or pvp advantage in any fashion or else it starts becoming a 'requirement', and thus giving an unfair, unreasonable incentive to play 24/7 in order to have as much recurring XP as possible to spend on say, more powerful flasks for a raid or a temporary speed boost in a BG.
    ~> An even more radical, sandboxy way to handle them would be the capacity to spend XP points, or HP, on the fly, in addition to the regular mana/class resource pool costs, when casting a spell in a world zone (so it leaves endgame PvP/PvE unaffected), to have a more spectacular (mechanical & cosmetic), on-cooldown (to prevent abuse) effect.

    This would allow people a balanced, non-endgame-disrupting reason to do stuff that gives them XP even though they're already max-level (losing XP would never de-level you, that's cool-sounding but against Blizz core design..I know), perhaps even by having to use an item to give the buff that enables the acquisition of such post-max XP points, an item that only works in world zones, thus sending more players out there instead of staying in capitals to wait for their queue & troll tradechat 24/7.
    Totally agree! and in my opinion vanilla/TBC wow had found the perfect spot between sandbox and themepark..it was the perfect "sandpark" in my opinion. Add to this the awesome lore and Blizzard reputation from epic games like diablo and warcraft strategies and you have the MMO bomb called World of Warcraft! Don't rush to blame me about nostalgia. I can clearly categorize a game and I know what I want. Imagine all MMOs as a row where in the most left part there is the virtual world and the most right the actual game.

    Virtual World -----------------------------Game

    Vanilla and TBC wow was in the middle, current wow is on the most right side. I am not saying this is bad or good obviously. But when people are talking about vanilla wow, they talk about the game in the middle of the row and not because of nostalgia. I will not talk about the huge contributors that push wow to the right, like LFG, cross-realm, etc but even the details are enough to kill the immersion and promote the pure gaming...For example, Hunter with no quiver/arrows, no feed on pets, pets automatically learn new abilities, e.t.c. I know these are labeled as "quality of life" changes but they push the game to the right and away from virtual world/immersion..
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  11. #431
    main reason? game is old, people have seen it all by now.

  12. #432
    really the future of these games, the main power of the mmo is in the mm, it's the key, whiles there was a need for them, things lik xrealms, xbgs, xraids, xarena, of far more importannce was really building communities in realms and finding ways to get players bonding better.

    these games are really huge, they can get some huge followings when they're wow's size, you want to be able to harness that massive populace to contribute to content and create some of their adventures themsevles, that's the future, without an investment that's much bigger than they're likely willing to provide, therefore they have to incorporate it into the design. I was looking at EQ Next, and they have some good ideas..

    I think there is a way wow can actually open itself up to dynamic content without losing this basic themepark aspect they're so scared of losing, for them the only solution would be to do both, continue providing your bread and butter stuff, then add extra stuff and see how it takes off.

    however community requires no game development to build, or at least relatively very little, they can buck the trend by having a far better social experience.

  13. #433
    2 main things IMO:

    1. Too Grindy. As much as MMO elitists scream about how "casual" stuff is, this game is just grind grind grind grind, so that you can get to the actual good/fun stuff, whether it be rated BG's, some kind of decent raiding, profession/ah/gold capping, pet battling, rare hunting, etc - it's all one grind after another, without any time to just sit back and take your time and just enjoy the game world.

    2. Continually disappointing lore/story. I've maintained for 4 years now that there needs to be a Warcraft 4, to give us a chance to be - to play as - some new heroes. Why do we love thrall so much? Well, it's because we get to BE Thrall. Same with Jaina, Cairne, Tyrande, Malfurion, Arthas - we get to connect to these people because we get to walk in their shoes.

    A game world like warcraft works best when told in an RTS. Blizzard made a mistake by not continuing their RTS series. The lore has suffered immensely, from never getting to actually fight deathwing, to the stupid, pointless, and frankly illogical development of Garrosh, to the sad changes to Tyrande and Jaina. All horrible developments that have driven more and more people away.

    A tertiary problem is the complexity of the combat system, where there are frankly too many buttons, with so much ability bloat. I believe this is a relatively minor issue though, since there are some classes where the combat rotations remain fairly simple (rogues, mages, paladins). Combat bloat may have affected hunters, traditionally one of the most popular classes, but again I think this is proportionally small.

    Edit: For the people who claim the game is too casual, that flying is bad, that there should be harsher penalties for death - you're wrong. You're dead dead dead wrong. Wow became popular because it didn't penalize you in these ways. Every single day, someone on mmo champ makes this claim, that always boils down to "casual play is bad for wow." This has absolutely nothing to do with sub loss. No one ever quit because of flying mounts, or because you didn't lose XP on death. Anyone saying they did is being disingenuous, and likely just flexing their elitist muscles on a messageboard.
    Last edited by Pyromelter; 2013-11-04 at 02:50 AM.

  14. #434

  15. #435
    World is changing a lot right now. Those of us that can still enjoy wow should feel lucky.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Stonecloak View Post
    World is changing a lot right now. Those of us that can still enjoy wow should feel lucky.
    you don't know how right you are!

  17. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I think its fair to say that alot of ex-Wow players keep an eye on what gets announced at Blizzcon... this gives them an excellent platform to advertise what their future plans are.... so it better be good!
    I know I am - Blizzcon is basically going to be make or break Blizzard games for me. Their last couple offerings (not just WoW) have left me pretty cold. (Not making any absolute judgements, just in deciding whether they'll be worth my time to even pay attention to in the future.)
    Since 9/11 the NSA has spent at least $70,000,000,000 while lying about their own effectiveness. Even if we sweep aside the extensive lawbreaking, ethical problems, economic damage, and abuse of power, the fact remains that the NSA makes us all less secure, running useless mass surveillance, with a handful of successes in other questionably legal programs.

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