life for prostitutes

[Ealyssa]

It's legal it Switzerland. And outside the toxicoman prostitute (the few one on the street selling for nothing), a girl can make 20-30k US$/month.

It is also heavily reglemented, girls are not enslaved, forced or anything else. They do it freewilling (obviously not always for noble reason) but they still are free and unemployment is REALLY low here. So you can have another job (paying LOT less of course). It's more and more seen by girls as the fast money way (fast but certainly not easy).

IMO if the girl is free and is assuming all the consequences, they should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies. Actually met a few girls who did that during university and weren't poor victim psychologicaly destroyed, they lived with it really well (for context they all were cute girls working for high end escort service. If customers are nice it obviously help I imagine).

[Deleted]

It's legal it Switzerland. And outside the toxicoman prostitute (the few one on the street selling for nothing), a girl can make 20-30k US$/month.

It is also heavily reglemented, girls are not enslaved, forced or anything else. They do it freewilling (obviously not always for noble reason) but they still are free and unemployment is REALLY low here. So you can have another job (paying LOT less of course). It's more and more seen by girls as the fast money way (fast but certainly not easy).

IMO if the girl is free and is assuming all the consequences, they should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies. Actually met a few girls who did that during university and weren't poor victim psychologicaly destroyed, they lived with it really well (for context they all were cute girls working for high end escort service. If customers are nice it obviously help I imagine).

Even fortress switzerland has its own issues with trafficking. Of course of limited nature given the security of its borders and the small manageable population.
Nonetheless...

Switzerland is primarily a destination and, to a lesser extent, a transit country for women and children subjected to sex trafficking and children forced into begging and theft. Sex trafficking victims originate primarily from Central and Eastern Europe (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Ukraine), though victims also come from Latin America (Brazil and the Dominican Republic), Asia (Thailand), and Africa (Nigeria, Guinea, and Cameroon). During the last year, Swiss government officials and NGOs reported an increase in the number of women in prostitution and children forced into begging and shoplifting from other parts of Europe, especially Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria, many of whom were ethnic Roma. The majority of identified victims in sex trafficking were women between the ages of 17 and 25, although some victims were as young as 14-years-old. Most victims reported a significant history of exposure to violence and exploitation prior to their arrival in Switzerland. While the majority of trafficking victims were found in urban areas, police and NGOs have encountered victims in bars in rural areas in recent years. Swiss police encountered an increasing number of sex trafficking victims forced into prostitution in private apartments. There reportedly was forced labor in the domestic service sector, particularly in foreign diplomatic households in Geneva, and increasingly in agriculture, construction, hotels, and restaurants. Federal police assessed that the total number of potential trafficking victims residing in Switzerland was between 2,000 and 3,000. Most of the victims who were trafficked to Switzerland were recruited through family members or friends.

The Government of Switzerland does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking; however, it is making significant efforts to do so. The Swiss government took strong and diverse efforts to prevent trafficking during the reporting period, including funding a campaign against child sex tourism, conducting a study on child begging, and forming bilateral working groups on trafficking with key source countries. Nevertheless, many Swiss cantons identified few children in begging as trafficking victims. Swiss efforts to protect trafficking victims improved with the introduction of measures to better protect witnesses; these measures were taken, in part, to lay the groundwork for Switzerland to ratify the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings. Switzerland also took critical federal-level actions to enable the legislature eventually to pass a law prohibiting prostitution of all persons under 18. Nevertheless, until the third-party harboring, transport, or recruitment of a teenager in prostitution is illegal, Switzerland does not prohibit all forms of trafficking. In addition, improvements are needed in accountability for convicted traffickers; suspended sentences continue to be the norm.

[Daerio]

http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnv...us-REVISED.pdf

Page 13

Did you have some sort of point to make with this reference? Because it doesn't seem like it. I'm assuming you just want to link to sources you think support your points, when they actually don't.

Want to know what I see on page 13? A whole lot of countries where prostitution is illegal (like the US) or restricted where human trafficking is still very high. Where is this causal link demonstrating that prostitution being legal leads to more human trafficking?

Just kidding, I know you can't prove that. You should hopefully realize that as well.

Also, is Israel one of those countries with poor border control? Check out where they are on that list.

[Deleted]

And theorycrafting has a very real impact on practice...

Which is why I asked Velaniz before and I'm going to ask you:

You're creating a system in which demand rises exponentially, with limited legal supply, in a global economy, and expect the traffickers to stay out?
Please allow me to ask you. How exactly would you regulate that?

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Did you have some sort of point to make with this reference? Because it doesn't seem like it. I'm assuming you just want to link to sources you think support your points, when they actually don't.

Want to know what I see on page 13? A whole lot of countries where prostitution is illegal (like the US) or restricted where human trafficking is still very high. Where is this causal link demonstrating that prostitution being legal leads to more human trafficking?

Just kidding, I know you can't prove that. You should hopefully realize that as well.

Also, is Israel one of those countries with poor border control? Check out where they are on that list.

Yes a list of countries with wrong systems, including Germany Greece Netherlands. Now look at Sweden.

[Daerio]

Yes a list of countries with wrong systems, including Germany Greece Netherlands. Now look at Sweden.

It's a list of completely mixed countries, which shows no link. That's the point. You can't cherrypick the data that supports your point, and ignore the data that doesn't.

[Deleted]

It's a list of completely mixed countries, which shows no link. That's the point. You can't cherrypick the data that supports your point, and ignore the data that doesn't.

What are you on about now?

[Deleted]

Demand for illegal prostitution shouldn't rise by making it legal, just consumption of illegal prostitution masquerading as legal.

That is exactly the same. The outcome is more trafficking.

[Daerio]

What are you on about now?

"Look at Germany, Greece, Netherlands and Sweden - because those countries show making prostitution illegal reduces human trafficking.
DON'T look at the US, Israel, UK, Italy, Spain or China - because those countries DON'T show that."
- Djalil, cherrypicking data, not seeing a problem with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_(fallacy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[Cybran]

The overarching problem isn't prostitution; it's trafficking and enslavement. Prostitution is merely a medium through which those are effected. Legalizing prostitution wouldn't suddenly mean traffickers wouldn't be held culpable anymore, because the law in most places is already equipped to handling instances of such transgressions.

Legalized prostitution means more demand. More demand means that new prostitutes will have to come from somewhere. New prostitutes means trafficking and exploitation.

How fucking hard is this to understand?

[Deleted]

"Look at Germany, Greece, Netherlands and Sweden - because those countries show making prostitution illegal reduces human trafficking.
DON'T look at the US, Israel, UK, Italy, Spain or China - because those countries DON'T show that."
- Djalil, cherrypicking data, not seeing a problem with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_(fallacy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Oh god all of this time you thought I was supporting those countries' system?

*facepalm*

[Daerio]

Oh god all of this time you thought I was supporting those countries' system?

*facepalm*

Then you support legalizing prostitution! All is well.

[Deleted]

"Look at Germany, Greece, Netherlands and Sweden - because those countries show making prostitution illegal reduces human trafficking.
DON'T look at the US, Israel, UK, Italy, Spain or China - because those countries DON'T show that."
- Djalil, cherrypicking data, not seeing a problem with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_(fallacy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Man, just so you stop embarrassing yourself again and again, I'm arguing in favour of the "Nordic model". The one adopted by Sweden Norway and Iceland.

Gee how embarrassing.

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Then you support legalizing prostitution! All is well.

You dont actually know what you're talking about.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Europe
Look at the big picture. Can't miss it.

I mean you know fuck all about this topic yet keep posting?

[Daerio]

Man, just so you stop embarrassing yourself again and again, I'm arguing in favour of the "Nordic model". The one adopted by Sweden Norway and Iceland.

Gee how embarrassing.

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You dont actually know what you're talking about.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Europe
Look at the big picture. Can't miss it.

I mean you know fuck all about this topic yet keep posting?

You seem to be directing your anger at me because you don't have a coherent point about wanting prostitution to be illegal. This is not logical. If you don't want prostitution to be legal because it contradicts your own personal moral compass, that's fine - but don't expect that argument to sway other people who don't already feel the same way you do. You don't get to tack on incorrect facts to confirm your opinion, though. If you want to argue that legalizing prostitution increases human trafficking, for example, you need to be able to coherently prove that. You can't, I'm sorry. (Posting random poorly written reports and news articles with inaccurate data that agrees with your opinion does not qualify as proof) If you want to argue that legalizing prostitution increases violence against women, you need to be able to prove that, with real falsifiable data. You can't.

As far as comparing 3 countries to the rest of the world, well, that isn't going to go very far. There are a huge number of factors that go into these comparisons you're trying to make.

[Deleted]

You seem to be directing your anger at me because you don't have a coherent point about wanting prostitution to be illegal. This is not logical. If you don't want prostitution to be legal because it contradicts your own personal moral compass, that's fine - but don't expect that argument to sway other people who don't already feel the same way you do. You don't get to tack on incorrect facts to confirm your opinion, though. If you want to argue that legalizing prostitution increases human trafficking, for example, you need to be able to coherently prove that. You can't, I'm sorry. If you want to argue that legalizing prostitution increases violence against women, you need to be able to prove that, with real falsifiable data. You can't.

As far as comparing 3 countries to the rest of the world, well, that isn't going to go very far. There are a huge number of factors that go into these comparisons you're trying to make.

I... I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You could have kept silent and avoided yet more embarrassment.
So, let me answer.
First of all, the ONLY one that mentioned morality in this conversation is YOU right now and no one else. I'd like to keep morality out of this so if you don't mind keeping your political games of "morality" out the door I'd appreciate thanks.

Now, facts, facts of what? That legalised prostitution increases trafficking?
http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnv...us-REVISED.pdf
Legalised prostitution increases violence against women? Who said that? You're hallucinating there buddy, the closest thig I said is that in Sweden and Norway rape and violence has gone down by a considerable number since adopting this system.

Would legalising prostitution increase violence towards woman? Sure, more trafficked girls, more abuse.
Pimping is the issue and pimping is just not going away.

Regarding your last point, please do list those "factors" you're on about.
I find the fact that an extremely rich county like Sweden with the Baltic countries and so ALL of Russia and the ex Soviet Union right NEXT to it, to have reduced trafficking unlike all-other-countries in Europe to be a quite remarkable feat.
But hey. Maybe it has something to do with "factors".

Advice, next time before you storm in and look like an idiot, make sure you know what the other party is saying.
You have a simplistic view of the issue in your head.

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Then regulation isn't doing its job. It's not the same though. Small distinctions really are important.

We can agree that regulation isn't doing its job. One important point in one of the report linked before was that the Dutch police actually found trafficked girls working INSIDE the legal system. You would agree, this is a mess?

[Daerio]

Now, facts, facts of what? That legalised prostitution increases trafficking?
http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnv...us-REVISED.pdf
Legalised prostitution increases violence against women? Who said that? You're hallucinating there buddy, the closest thig I said is that in Sweden and Norway rape and violence has gone down by a considerable number since adopting this system.

When you don't have real facts, the best thing to do is keep repeating yourself until what you're saying magically becomes true. Fingers in ears, screaming "Lalalalala!" in true childish fashion.

Regarding your last point, please do list those "factors" you're on about.
I find the fact that for an extremely rich county like Sweden with the Baltic country and so ALL of Russia and the ex Soviet Union right NEXT to it, to have reduced trafficking unlike all-other-countries in Europe to be quote remarkable.
But hey. Maybe it has something to do with "factors".

Well, there are quite a few factors that go into studying human trafficking. Whether or not prostitution is legal would not seem to be the most significant to me, because as I've already pointed out, if you plotted that information on a graph, there would be no discernible pattern between the 2 factors you've tried to link together. That could be because of magic, or it could be because you're trying to simplify a complicated issue too much.

TLDR: You can't link the legality of prostitution to human trafficking, as you're trying to do.

Advice, next time before you storm in and look like an idiot, make sure you know what the other party is saying.
In your head now you have a simplistic view of the issue.

I know perfectly well what you have been saying this entire time, (that is, when you've had a point at all - instead of just posting a link with no thoughts of your own) perhaps the comprehension issue is on your end. I've directly addressed your points that you've turned into a mantra as well as your implied points. Sadly, apparently you don't understand what's going on, so there isn't much of a discussion to be had. Why don't you go ahead and re-link one of those URLs again? (You know, one of those you've already linked 5 times in a row) Maybe THIS time it will become true. Also don't forget to throw out some personal insults, those are usually most effective in rational discussions.

[Daerio]

We can agree that regulation isn't doing its job. One important point in one of the report linked before was that the Dutch police actually found trafficked girls working INSIDE the legal system. You would agree, this is a mess?

Also, I should have mentioned - perhaps this is the problem they should be focusing on, actually enforcing the laws in place, (preventing the victimization of women) rather than passing new laws making prostitution entirely illegal. (or just illegal for the men, and not the women, like you're proposing)

[Deleted]

When you don't have real facts, the best thing to do is keep repeating yourself until what you're saying magically becomes true. Fingers in ears, screaming "Lalalalala!" in true childish fashion.



Well, there are quite a few factors that go into studying human trafficking. Whether or not prostitution is legal would not seem to be the most significant to me, because as I've already pointed out, if you plotted that information on a graph, there would be no discernible pattern between the 2 factors you've tried to link together. That could be because of magic, or it could be because you're trying to simplify a complicated issue too much.

TLDR: You can't link the legality of prostitution to human trafficking, as you're trying to do.



I know perfectly well what you have been saying this entire time, (that is, when you've had a point at all - instead of just posting a link with no thoughts of your own) perhaps the comprehension issue is on your end. I've directly addressed your points that you've turned into a mantra as well as your implied points. Sadly, apparently you don't understand what's going on, so there isn't much of a discussion to be had. Why don't you go ahead and re-link one of those URLs again? (You know, one of those you've already linked 5 times in a row) Maybe THIS time it will become true. Also don't forget to throw out some personal insults, those are usually most effective in rational discussions.

Maybe this time you'll read it huh?
Are you saying this 2013 study is what... Biased? Not saying that "On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows."?
Are you questioning their methodology? Are you the same guy that questioned that Dutch police report by any chance? Just asking as it would be funny really.

Are you now talking about human trafficking or sex trafficking? Because sex trafficking is not that complex you know? Demand-supply.
Anyway if you would have simply googled about it, not saying studied in depth, you would have know yourself prostitution and sex trafficking are linked.
Or maybe, are you saying trafficking humans and put them into brothels is not in anyway related to how the receiving countries handle the prostitution business?
Cause that sound extremely ridiculous.

No you did not ahah two posts above you didn't even know what I was arguing for.
And when spotted (and this is a classic move) you babbled something about morality, thinking "hey, this guy is against legalised prostitution so he's definitely a religious conservative, lets put in "morality" in a sentence and look cool.

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Also, I should have mentioned - perhaps this is the problem they should be focusing on, actually enforcing the laws in place, (preventing the victimization of women) rather than passing new laws making prostitution entirely illegal. (or just illegal for the men, and not the women, like you're proposing)

Ok you're right lets tone it down a notch.
Yes unfortunately with legalisation the problem becomes so vast it's simply harder close to impossible to keep checked.

[Daerio]

Maybe this time you'll read it huh?
Are you saying this 2013 study is what... Biased? Not saying that "On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows."?
Are you questioning their methodology? Are you the same guy that questioned that Dutch police report by any chance? Just asking as it would be funny really.

What you claimed the Dutch police report did:

Proves 50-90% of women in LEGAL prostitution are PHYSICALLY FORCED into having sex.

What the Dutch police report actually did:

Asked a handful of cops to GUESS what they thought the percentage of women forced into prostitution against their will was. (Most would not even guess) Laughable. Proof indeed.

Are you now talking about human trafficking or sex trafficking? Because sex trafficking is not that complex you know? Demand-supply.
Anyway if you would have simply googled about it, not saying studied in depth, you would have know yourself prostitution and sex trafficking are linked.
Or maybe, are you saying trafficking humans and put them into brothels is not in anyway related to how the receiving countries handle the prostitution business?
Cause that sound extremely ridiculous.

In countries where prostitution is legal, is it also legal to force women into this profession? It is not. So you can't take this leap of logic and say that if prostitution was illegal, the criminals would follow the law, and that they wouldn't be forcing women into prostitution, or that they would be doing it less if prostitution was illegal.

Also, this claim that legalizing prostitution increases demand for illegal prostitution (women being forced against their will) is complete nonsense.

No you did not ahah two posts above you didn't even know what I was arguing for.
And when spotted (and this is a classic move) you babbled something about morality, thinking "hey, this guy is against legalised prostitution so he's definitely a religious conservative, lets put in "morality" in a sentence and look cool.

Well, being that you have no points supported by fact to claim that prostitution should be illegal, the only other option is that it's based on your opinion. When it comes to this subject, personal perceptions of morality are quite relevant. No, you didn't claim morality, but you didn't have to.

[Deleted]

What you claimed the Dutch police report did:

Proves 50-90% of women in LEGAL prostitution are PHYSICALLY FORCED into having sex.

What the Dutch police report actually did:

Asked a handful of cops to GUESS what they thought the percentage of women forced into prostitution against their will was. (Most would not even guess) Laughable. Proof indeed.



In countries where prostitution is legal, is it also legal to force women into this profession? It is not. So you can't take this leap of logic and say that if prostitution was illegal, the criminals would follow the law, and that they wouldn't be forcing women into prostitution, or that they would be doing it less if prostitution was illegal.

Also, this claim that legalizing prostitution increases demand for illegal prostitution (women being forced against their will) is complete nonsense.



Well, being that you have no points supported by fact to claim that prostitution should be illegal, the only other option is that it's based on your opinion. When it comes to this subject, personal perceptions of morality are quite relevant. No, you didn't claim morality, but you didn't have to.

No you're not getting the point.
Legalisation shoots demand off the roof, demand which legal supply cannot satisfy. This creates a surplus of demand that traffickers turn into money. It's not really that hard.
This is why the Netherlands and Germany lead the charts when it comes down to sex trafficking.