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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Why is changing your playstyle in terms of ability use ok ( using SS during dampening because NS is affected by it in this example) but changing your target in terms of ability use not ok?

    Wouldn't dampening make targeting a healer more attractive anyway? If its harder for them to heal? You should kick them while they are down....
    I'm not sure I understand your first statement. I don't support dampening changing playstyle at all. As little as possible.

    On the second point it could also be argued that it is just as effective to CC the healer as it will be harder to heal the dps when it gets out due to dampening. The necrotic strike uniquity makes this a non-decision, it is more effective to train a healer who is inclined to cast.

  2. #22
    Check my edit from last post too


    Well my point is that either way, dampening changes playstyle with regards to necrotic strike, there is no way around that.

    If its nerfed under dampening, you stop using it under dampening

    If its not nerfed under dampening, you train the healer.


    The second point is that any situation where it takes a healer longer to heal the person would be a sign to train them. If it takes them 10 seconds instead of 8 seconds to top them, you have more opportunity to interrupt etc, especially as melee who will not always be in range to focus interrupt.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Why is changing your playstyle in terms of ability use ok ( using SS during dampening because NS is affected by it in this example) but changing your target in terms of ability use not ok?

    Wouldn't dampening make targeting a healer more attractive anyway? If its harder for them to heal? You should kick them while they are down....

    Edit: As others have said though in other discussions, the most effective way to remove NS when under a high stack would be to control the death knight and let it fall off. This is completely doable with a reasonable cc and los. Its not always available but it certainly is an option. Its worth noting this is a great weakness of necrotic strike, without maintenance, it is damage that actually never happened.
    I understand that. But if you are going to look at that situation you have to look at the other side too. What if your dps is being CC'd and you aren't able to be peeled/the dk isnt able to be controlled as DK's have multiple ways to prevent control/escape control. The fact is, when this is the case. A DK is more effective at training a healer due to the combination of necrotic strike and dampening. The amount of advantage that is there can be debated for hours, but you must recognize it is there.

    (Also we're talkin twos, I never get to dampening in threes with a dk on either team.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Check my edit from last post too


    Well my point is that either way, dampening changes playstyle with regards to necrotic strike, there is no way around that.

    If its nerfed under dampening, you stop using it under dampening

    If its not nerfed under dampening, you train the healer.


    The second point is that any situation where it takes a healer longer to heal the person would be a sign to train them. If it takes them 10 seconds instead of 8 seconds to top them, you have more opportunity to interrupt etc, especially as melee who will not always be in range to focus interrupt.
    I can't agree with the second point. There is only so much CC, if a healer can sustain an equal amount of train while his partners, say an ele shaman are free. It is much more dangerous to sit the healer and let the dps freecast. Necrotic strike's interaction with dampening can tip this decision.

    Edit: Btw please understand that I appreciate you not just blindly telling me I'm wrong. I've given this a lot of thought and was even initially arguing the dk side on forums pre-dampening going in.
    Last edited by Pwellzor; 2013-10-25 at 05:14 AM.

  4. #24
    I totally do recognize its there, my problem is the alternative which forces a rotational change rather than a target change. But who knows, if necrotic strike were to be reduced by dampening, we have no idea as to the extent, it could be the same rate as heals or it could be more. Its easy to forget that dampening is incremental, its so small at first that it barely matters.

    At SOME point dampening becomes significant but as players, what point is that? 5%? 10%? What about 11? If 10% is significant, is 9%?

    Assuming blizzard has taken the casting speed snare into consideration, its safe to assume they feel this is best and at this point I doubt much will change so i'm going to go to bed DD

    Though I like having a level headed discussion, always refreshing.

  5. #25
    Over 9000! apepi's Avatar
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    Eh, I don't see it as a problem, dks are trading a possibility of being able to kill a target for the possibility of losing damage and that heals debuff not doing anything.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Eh, I don't see it as a problem, dks are trading a possibility of being able to kill a target for the possibility of losing damage and that heals debuff not doing anything.
    Glad your response cleared it up. thanks for the reasons and math.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Pwellzor View Post
    So DK's are the only ones who get an advantage from dampening so its ok.
    All damage specs and classes get an advantage from dampening.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Baphomette View Post
    All damage specs and classes get an advantage from dampening.
    Please actually read the thread. In a dk on healer situation dks gain an advantage to other dps. Thank you for your completely obvious and predictable response.

  9. #29
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    http://pvp-live.com/necrotic-strike-...ing-explained/

    Conclusion

    Ultimately based on the results of the simulations I feel Blizzard made the right decision in treating Necrotic Strike the same as other sources of damage, and I hope it remains this way. However the question of who will benefit the most from Dampening remains. The simple answer is players who depend on mitigation and avoidance for survival rather than healing or damage absorbs stand to benefit the most, I will leave it up to the community to debate that for the time being though, this post is already long enough! I hope this analysis has been helpful in understanding how Necrotic Strike works and how it is affected by Dampening. If you have any questions please feel free to ask and I will do my best to provide an answer.
    TLDR; In the end there wont be any advantage for dks using necrotic strike.
    Epic!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by MrApple View Post
    http://pvp-live.com/necrotic-strike-...ing-explained/



    TLDR; In the end there wont be any advantage for dks using necrotic strike.
    I read this before I posted. His simulation is completely ignorant of any mechanics besides the absorb, especially the casting slow and the change in necessary healing style to get rid of necrotics after dampening is up.

    Edit: For future posters. Please read the exchange between nangz and I. It explains a lot. Think for yourself.
    Last edited by Pwellzor; 2013-10-25 at 02:26 PM.

  11. #31
    Warchief MrApple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwellzor View Post
    His simulation is completely ignorant
    How about you do the "correct" simulations and share it with the world? Im waiting!
    Epic!

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Pwellzor View Post
    Please actually read the thread. In a dk on healer situation dks gain an advantage to other dps. Thank you for your completely obvious and predictable response.
    Maybe they do gain an advantage. But does that mean you would rather have a warrior training you as opposed to a DK? I don't think so. Even if leaving NS unaffected by dampening does give a boost to DK's, nerfing NS under dampening would certainly nerf DKs.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by MrApple View Post
    How about you do the "correct" simulations and share it with the world? Im waiting!
    my discussion with nangz is just as much of a simulation as his bar graphs and completely unrealistic situation. At least I'm coming up with my own thoughts rather than reading some pvplive article and treating it as gospel.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    Maybe they do gain an advantage. But does that mean you would rather have a warrior training you as opposed to a DK? I don't think so. Even if leaving NS unaffected by dampening does give a boost to DK's, nerfing NS under dampening would certainly nerf DKs.
    This isn't about which class is scarier before dampening because classes change all the time. It is about whether any playstyles change because of it. I agree that the solution to this is sticky, but the problem is there.

  14. #34
    Warchief MrApple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwellzor View Post
    my discussion with nangz is just as much of a simulation as his bar graphs and completely unrealistic situation. At least I'm coming up with my own thoughts rather than reading some pvplive article and treating it as gospel.
    Still dont see any numbers, graphs or simulations. Until you can provide either then your claims is just false information based on nothing.
    Provide clear facts that DKs will have advantage with dampening and i will believe it. Claiming it simply doesnt cut it.
    Epic!

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by MrApple View Post
    Still dont see any numbers, graphs or simulations. Until you can provide either then your claims is just false information based on nothing.
    Provide clear facts that DKs will have advantage with dampening and i will believe it. Claiming it simply doesnt cut it.
    on my shaman it typically takes two healing surge is to clear the necrotic stack while riptide is up. It is about the same on my disc/holy priest. More globals if I'm using instants which I have to because it is a dk and casting is rarely successful even after juking.

    After dampening hits around 20% it will take me one more casted spell to clear the stack while being trained. This would be the same as healing damage EXCEPT I still haven't cleared the casting debuff. This interaction is what makes it different.

    My numbers aren't based on nothing. They are based on experience. Also please tell me how what I've stated is wrong. You can provide your own math this time!
    Last edited by Pwellzor; 2013-10-25 at 03:22 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Pwellzor View Post
    on my shaman it typically takes two healing surge is to clear the necrotic stack while riptide is up. It is about the same on my disc/holy priest. More globals if I'm using instants which I have to because it is a dk and casting is rarely successful even after juking.

    After dampening hits around 20% it will take me one more casted spell to clear the stack while being trained. This would be the same as healing damage EXCEPT I still haven't cleared the casting debuff. This interaction is what makes it different.

    My numbers aren't based on nothing. They are based on experience. Also please tell me how what I've stated is wrong. You can provide your own math this time!
    The cast time debuff is no different to a Rogue's Mind numbing poison or a warlock's Curse of Tongues, both of which can be just as readily applied.

    Also the Necrotic stack doesn't always have to always be healed through you know. It is a debuff with a limited duration of 10 sec that will fall off if it is not reapplied, a CC chain and well timed Pillar escape can do this.

    I seriously don't see how Necrotics are any different to a Rogue using Wound poison + Mind Numbing on you as they inflict damage, it must still be healed up.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    The cast time debuff is no different to a Rogue's Mind numbing poison or a warlock's Curse of Tongues, both of which can be just as readily applied.

    Also the Necrotic stack doesn't always have to always be healed through you know. It is a debuff with a limited duration of 10 sec that will fall off if it is not reapplied, a CC chain and well timed Pillar escape can do this.

    I seriously don't see how Necrotics are any different to a Rogue using Wound poison + Mind Numbing on you as they inflict damage, it must still be healed up.
    I agree with you, it has high potential but it also has more of a possibility for it not to matter. A rogues could vanish and just stay out of combat until the buff goes down.

    Try not to act so snarky, if you show us your 'numbers' we might agree with you, but you are just posting your experience just like we are.

    Also, I would rather have a warrior on me than a dk, warriros are much easier to kite(for me).
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  18. #38
    On topic:
    NO necrotic strike is not affected by dampening.
    And this makes perfect sence, its an offensive ability,
    healing aborpsion is just another way of dealing dmg, not a way of healing....

    Off topic
    That doesnt mean that necrotic strike or dks overall are fine,
    their dmg needs to be toned down a bit...

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    I agree with you, it has high potential but it also has more of a possibility for it not to matter. A rogues could vanish and just stay out of combat until the buff goes down.

    Try not to act so snarky, if you show us your 'numbers' we might agree with you, but you are just posting your experience just like we are.

    Also, I would rather have a warrior on me than a dk, warriros are much easier to kite(for me).
    It wasn't my intention to come across as snarky so I apologise if my post did. I have done arena as Unholy spec and there have been a lot of times when my necrotic stack was lost due to a good escape.

    Necrotics are a pain for healers which is true but they also don't hit for much compared to say a warrior's mortal strike. I am surprised that you say that warriors are easier to kite than DKs as I always thought their mobility was way superior to ours.

  20. #40
    HOOKAY. There seems to be a lot of confusion on this point in regards to dampening. Lots of "LOOK AT THE MATH!!!!!" followed by horrible math that has absolutely no bearing in reality at all. I'll say this clearly so people can understand. THERE IS NO WAY THAT DAMPENING EFFECTS NECROTIC STRIKE IN A POSITIVE MANNER. I invite everyone to go ahead and ready this article because it sums things up easily and in a way all can understand. http://pvp-live.com/necrotic-strike-...ing-explained/

    Now then, there are going to be people who read that and think "HOLY SHIT BUT WAIT! If the healing is being dampened that means necrotic strike will be more op than damage because it will take longer to remove! Actually, this is not the case, if anything at a certain point stacking necrotic strike will be useless because if a DK is stacking it to the point where a healer can't possible remove it then it's a waste of resources. They would benefit more from an equivalent amount of regular damage. The reason being is unlike regular damage, necrotic strike has a duration and can fall off. Resulting in an actually longer time to kill targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pwellzor View Post
    on my shaman it typically takes two healing surge is to clear the necrotic stack while riptide is up. It is about the same on my disc/holy priest. More globals if I'm using instants which I have to because it is a dk and casting is rarely successful even after juking.

    After dampening hits around 20% it will take me one more casted spell to clear the stack while being trained. This would be the same as healing damage EXCEPT I still haven't cleared the casting debuff. This interaction is what makes it different.

    My numbers aren't based on nothing. They are based on experience. Also please tell me how what I've stated is wrong. You can provide your own math this time!
    On your shaman facing a mage, if I'm bursting into your healing target with riptide up it will take two healing surges to bring them up to full. After dampening it hits 20% it will take a whole other cast for you to clear some of the damage and it still wont heal them to full. How is necrotic strike different owait, its not.
    Last edited by draconith1; 2013-10-27 at 06:25 PM.
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