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  1. #1
    The Patient Pyrophobia's Avatar
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    LFR FIX - make it 10 man

    This is the first post i start, but i believe the idea is worth it. Lets spin it around and propose it to Blizzard later if we think it could work.

    The biggest problem of LFR 25 man is the people that hide behind everyone else and do nothing or underperform a lot.
    having 25 man filled with 5-10 ppl like that you can hardly kick them because it becomes a war and if you manage to kick 1-2 more will join and ppl will start ranting about delaying the already long Queue + dungeon run

    Making LFR 10 man will only bring good things to the table
    1. Easier to spot failure and easier to explain said person what he did wrong or replace him if he refuses to learn.
    2. Easier to spot underperformance and be dealt with
    3. Less players makes the time spent more sociable. People can use their social skills where in 25 man you only seldomly make some small chat via whisper.
    4. 10 man will need more tanks and healers vs DPS Ratio than 25 man but that is good.
    ... WHY:
    4.1 AFK dps-ers will not like to spend 1h waiting to get kicked after they refuse to learn so either they conver to active dps-ers or will soon stop doing LFR
    4.2 Normal players will test being a healer or tank after a long queue and will probably enjoy it much more when they don't have to do all the work.

    In Long term this change will make much more tanks and healers available within the game. And will also can start making the game more sociable.
    Big raids might be fun but they brign the burden of someone Organising all that and the rest beign quiet so everything can run smooth when 1 is explaining.
    25 man lets much mor emistakes go unnoticed and that's not a good thing. It Dumbs Out the WoW population and we see where that gets us every next day.
    Last edited by Pyrophobia; 2013-10-25 at 01:32 PM.

  2. #2
    It seems like a good idea but it would be even less forgiving than it already is (i.e. more wipes) and I don't think that's a goal for Blizzard. Plus, it would increase DPS queue times even further.

  3. #3
    Scarab Lord Chonar's Avatar
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    'Cause right now, for 25-man, you're not already waiting forever for 2 tanks.

    "Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my comrade." - Albert Camus

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Puffler's Avatar
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    Retarded idea, the dps queues are already an hour + for alot of people, would be more than double if it was 10 man
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  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire silver9172's Avatar
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    You think that making the DPS queues even longer will solve anything? Then instead of people complaining about 20 min queues they will complain about 1 hour queues. The problem is not the system, it's the players. I did a SoO LFR last night on my fresh 90 hunter and was in top 10 DPS, tanks wiped the raid several times and got away with it, and DPS pulled bosses to grief the raid. So tell me how any of that changes if you change the system?

    The bad DPS will still be bad, only you can get super lucky and get in a group with 4 of them when there is only 5 DPS total. Tanks will still suck because they didn't look anything up, and people will still grief raids. More room for error in 25m makes it the only feasible option for something like LFR.

  6. #6
    The Patient Pyrophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ateup View Post
    It seems like a good idea but it would be even less forgiving than it already is (i.e. more wipes) and I don't think that's a goal for Blizzard. Plus, it would increase DPS queue times even further.
    Well that's the idea of the Game isn't it. You wipe for a reason and then you learn yourself or someone tells you the mistake you make. And you fix it.
    Where if you don't want to learn you get kicked unlike the curent 25 mechanics where it will neither be someone to see your mistake or tell you about it. And in the small ocasions you get kicked for it it will be after too many wipes already.
    If it's a wipe free enviroment. Make it an ingame cut scene and after you watch it get the gear in your mailbox.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by silver9172 View Post
    You think that making the DPS queues even longer will solve anything? Then instead of people complaining about 20 min queues they will complain about 1 hour queues. The problem is not the system, it's the players. I did a SoO LFR last night on my fresh 90 hunter and was in top 10 DPS, tanks wiped the raid several times and got away with it, and DPS pulled bosses to grief the raid. So tell me how any of that changes if you change the system?

    The bad DPS will still be bad, only you can get super lucky and get in a group with 4 of them when there is only 5 DPS total. Tanks will still suck because they didn't look anything up, and people will still grief raids. More room for error in 25m makes it the only feasible option for something like LFR.
    Like you said the problem is not the system it's the players.
    But those players in 25 man get away with it. AFK in the shadows and never learn.
    In order to teach those ppl you need to change something and in my opinion it's the amount of ppl

    .......... Big groups let individuals get out of the spot light much easier .......

    Make LFR 10 man and problems will shine and ppl will react to them and fix them.

    In the long term it will fix the Queue times where right now they are only slowly becoming longer and longer

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire silver9172's Avatar
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    LFR is not the place to wipe over and over again to learn mechanics, sorry. That is called normal mode raiding. They even added flex mode so it's easier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrophobia View Post
    Well that's the idea of the Game isn't it. You wipe for a reason and then you learn yourself or someone tells you the mistake you make. And you fix it.
    Where if you don't want to learn you get kicked unlike the curent 25 mechanics where it will neither be someone to see your mistake or tell you about it. And in the small ocasions you get kicked for it it will be after too many wipes already.
    If it's a wipe free enviroment. Make it an ingame cut scene and after you watch it get the gear in your mailbox.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Like you said the problem is not the system it's the players.
    But those players in 25 man get away with it. AFK in the shadows and never learn.
    In order to teach those ppl you need to change something and in my opinion it's the amount of ppl

    .......... Big groups let individuals get out of the spot light much easier .......

    Make LFR 10 man and problems will shine and ppl will react to them and fix them.

    In the long term it will fix the Queue times where right now they are only slowly becoming longer and longer
    I'm an experienced raider and I don't join LFR on my alts to hold your hand and tell you to stop standing in fire, it's just not the place for it. If you were in a flex run with me maybe, but it's LFR.

  8. #8
    Your idea fixes nothing, its been explained why. You can't hold failers accountable because they have kick protection. Failers will also have a bigger impact since one person constitutes 10% of the raid now instead of 4%.

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire silver9172's Avatar
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    If people want to learn, and yes they need to want to, they will join an organized group of people. If you turn LFR into what you're describing you'll never have people with experience running it and then the runs will only get worse.

  10. #10
    I think one of the main reasons it's 25 is so someone who's never raided before won't feel as intimidated about messing up. One out of 25 not knowing what's going on isn't nearly as punishing as one out of 10.

  11. #11
    More people being kicked is not what Blizzard wants

  12. #12
    Mechagnome Natova's Avatar
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    Your idea seems terrible. those few dps who don't cut it don't realy make a difference. And after people gear a little bit and know the fightws better they matter even less.

    You realy think people would start tanking or healing? I think most people already tryed it and did not like it. Not because they don't like it but mostly because strangers are often assholes. 1 Mistake from either a healer or a tank and people start raging. It is the very reason i quit healing.

    People will learn their class/spec after a while anyway and become better.
    What if the next person in you 10 player lfr also does not know are want to learn as you put it will you replace him aswell? How long will you keep doing this?
    LFR is not realy about being social (although it is nice to come into a fun group every now and then). For social meetings you should look in your guild or with friends in groups.

    LFR is fine as it is no need to change the size it will bring more trouble then you can think of
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  13. #13
    The Patient Pyrophobia's Avatar
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    @silver9172
    if LFR is only to look at the bosses and defeat them without foloing any tactics or playing as it's supsoed to then they should jus tmake thema cut scene movie
    Instead they are bosses that do DMG and require basic tactics. So ppl need to learn them. If it's 10 man and you have 2 ppl that want to ignore everything you can simply kick them and replace them. Or will be much more easier and less anoying to explain them their error unlike in 25 man where you and I and many like us can't be bothered to explain to 10 ppl that will not even bother to read your explanation

    In Longterm 10 man can be as easy as LFR is suposed to be and will be much mroe friendly relaxing and wipe free due to ppl knowing they have to open their eyes durign the 30 min LFR run or will get replaced fairly quickly. unlike our curent 25 when they can afk folow someone and get away with it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by silver9172 View Post
    LFR is not the place to wipe over and over again to learn mechanics, sorry.
    Right. LFR is the place to wipe over and over again to NOT learn mechanics.

  15. #15
    The Patient Pyrophobia's Avatar
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    Right now 25 man LFR protects ppl from their mistakes. The fact they know they won't get kicked makes them continue this way and turns out the current LFR to what it is right now.

    The lack of tanks is a result of that system. Since most of the responsibility is on their shoulders and on the Healers. Those people don't want to sign in 25 man because of the DPS portion that is half asleep.
    That's why we got long queues and we will continue to get evne longer queues if we continue this way.

  16. #16
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    More people being kicked is not what Blizzard wants
    Minor correction.

    More kicks is not what the bad players want. And right now LFR is set up specifically to protect and cuddle them.

    Blizz doesn't want more kicks because if bads suddenly had to learn to play like the rest of us did, they'd just quit. And apparantly, if only 2% of the population raids, the bads must be the majority now.
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  17. #17
    If Blizzard wanted challenging content for unorganized groups then they'd add new 5-mans back to the game. If you cut LFR down to 10 people then you will still get all the DPS who can't switch targets but have less people to carry them. And Blizzard doesn't want people to wipe repeatedly in LFR.

  18. #18
    Stood in the Fire silver9172's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrophobia View Post
    @silver9172
    if LFR is only to look at the bosses and defeat them without foloing any tactics or playing as it's supsoed to then they should jus tmake thema cut scene movie
    Instead they are bosses that do DMG and require basic tactics. So ppl need to learn them. If it's 10 man and you have 2 ppl that want to ignore everything you can simply kick them and replace them. Or will be much more easier and less anoying to explain them their error unlike in 25 man where you and I and many like us can't be bothered to explain to 10 ppl that will not even bother to read your explanation

    In Longterm 10 man can be as easy as LFR is suposed to be and will be much mroe friendly relaxing and wipe free due to ppl knowing they have to open their eyes durign the 30 min LFR run or will get replaced fairly quickly. unlike our curent 25 when they can afk folow someone and get away with it.
    I'd like so see how many decent people stick around to help the one guy who just doesn't get it and is holding the raid back when LFR goes 10m. That guy will never get it, and 9 other people suffer because of it. In 25m there could be some of those people and you still have enough people to kill the boss. one person dies in 25m it's ok, 1 in 10m and thats 1/5 of your DPS gone, 1/3 of your heals.

    You'll never get a group of random people who know exactly what they need. Like another poster said, if I'm brand new, hit that queue button then I'm in a 10m where there is pressure on me that isn't needed the very first time doing any large grp content shit can go bad. You'll also have to explain EVERYTHING to me because I could fuck it up and wipe the raid. In a 25m I can go in, observe what the group on a whole is doing and I'm not pressured to push out 1/5th of the raids damage.

    You'll still get the people who just won't listen in 10m and you'll still have to carry them, only it will be a harder carry than if they were hiding in the corner auto attacking on 25m.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Vale View Post
    Right. LFR is the place to wipe over and over again to NOT learn mechanics.
    That's right. It's not a progression environment. You want to "progress" by wiping join a flex or normal mode group. LFR is not intended to be that.

  19. #19
    The Patient Pyrophobia's Avatar
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    Who says LFR 10 man needs to be chalenging

    It can be as easy as it is but since it's 10 man it will be way easier to spot a mistake.
    If the group can beat the encoutner they will cary the guy.
    If the group can't beat it they will then notice the 1 or 2 ppl and make a remark and probably try again

    The fact it's 10 makes it much more sociable and ppl will be much more aware of what they do right or wrong.
    It will not only make the 10 man experience better for everyone but even for those taht don't want to put much effort in it.

    If you can't do your low end dps and move away of the fire after standing in it for 1 minute you have to get kicked ....
    If you don't want to do all those things then don't do LFR ....
    Blizzard have added a million of other things to do than to go in LFR and ruin other ppl time

    If you are new and playing a game isn't part of playing the game to learn. LFR->Flex->Normal->HC
    Last edited by Pyrophobia; 2013-10-25 at 02:08 PM.

  20. #20
    Stood in the Fire silver9172's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrophobia View Post
    Who says LFR 10 man needs to be chalenging

    It can be as easy as it is but since it's 10 man it will be way easier to spot a mistake.
    If the group can beat the encoutner they will cary the guy.
    If the group can't beat it they will then notice the 1 or 2 ppl and make a remark and probably try again

    The fact it's 10 makes it much more sociable and ppl will be much more aware of what they do right or wrong.
    It will not only make the 10 man experience better for everyone but even for those taht don't want to put much effort in it.

    If you can't do your low end dps and move away of the fire after standing in it for 1 minute you have to get kicked ....
    If you don't want to do all those things then don't do LFR ....
    Blizzard have added a million of other things to do than to go in LFR and ruin other ppl time
    You miss the point. You'd have to dumb it down even more. Mechanics that they can have you die to on 25m where you could actually learn from you'd have to live through on 10m or it becomes endless wipes.

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