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  1. #41
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    Also, I love when people qq about the DPS on lfr. The fact is that at any given time the majority of players are meeting or exceeding the average DPS the fights are balanced for.
    LFR Needs a mendoza line. When a fight ends, even if its a win, if you are below the Mendoza line for performance, you get no loot, you are kicked from the raid automatically, and given a deserter debuff. But make it low enough where people who are honestly trying will always exceed the mendoza line.

    Maybe that's a terrible idea, I don't know, I don't do LFR. But the majority of complaints I see are about people going in and lolafk during the fights.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrophobia View Post
    Actually you have to think a bit:
    When there is need for tanks they will show up
    Make it 50 man raid with 1 tank and you will have even bigger tank shortage as nobody will bother to gear the spec in first place because "its only 1 needed someone else will do it"
    That's not the reason there is a tank shortage.

    OP, terrible idea. would need even more tanks. queue times would skyrocket.

  3. #43
    Elemental Lord Gheld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    LFR Needs a mendoza line. When a fight ends, even if its a win, if you are below the Mendoza line for performance, you get no loot, you are kicked from the raid automatically, and given a deserter debuff. But make it low enough where people who are honestly trying will always exceed the mendoza line.

    Maybe that's a terrible idea, I don't know, I don't do LFR. But the majority of complaints I see are about people going in and lolafk during the fights.
    Except that on Malkorok I'd rather have somebody who stands in purple puddles than somebody who has higher dps.

    I'd rather have somebody who dispels on protectors than had high HPS.

    And in my experience the people who cry about DPS performance on lfr are in 540+ I level and barely push past 100kdps. Which is about 90% more pathetic than doing 50k DPS with 496ilevel without any gems or enchants.

    In psychology that's called projection.
    Last edited by Gheld; 2013-10-25 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #44
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    Sorry Pyrophobia, but in spite of your reasoning, overall I agree with the majority of posters here: It would be a terrible idea.

    One of the huge advantages of going 25 man over 10 man is that statistics start to work with you. The bigger the raid, the more performance moves towards the statistical mean, and the easier it is to make a system that works.

    For example, assuming 10% of the LFR population AFK's, the probability of getting 20% of raid afk, ie 5 in 25 man (5.6%) is a lot less than the probability of getting 2 afkers in 10 man (40.4%).

    Yes the odds of getting a good group in a 10 man setup is much better, but the odds of getting a terrible group is also much greater. It is far better to have predictable performance across a large number of LFRs than have it go between extremes.

  5. #45
    Epic! mrgummage's Avatar
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    I think more individual responsibility is the last thing a large percentage of LFR DPS need if you want LFRs to continue not being a complete wipefest.
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  6. #46
    Wouldn't help things. It would make que times far longer than they are now because a 10 player raid will still need 2 tanks and there are already too few tanks for all the dps that are queing.

    It would also probably lead to more failure because in a 10 player group you are less able to carry bad players. Sure you can just continuously replace those bad players via vote kick but that's just going to lead to time delays and frustration.

    It would also be bad for the players who are getting kicked all the time.. That in turn wont be good for sub numbers because who's going to want to play a game and then be basically ostracised from doing the parts of the game you want. You can say "well they should just learn to be better" but some people just aren't that good and even reading guides wont fix that.

  7. #47
    Scarab Lord Descense's Avatar
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    It would love this idea. All you need to do is to change the need for 1 tank and 1 healer only.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrophobia View Post
    TThe biggest problem of LFR 25 man is the people that hide behind everyone else and do nothing or underperform a lot.
    and that will TOTALLY change if there are only 9 other people to hide behind. sure.

  9. #49
    They should make it 40 man with 9 healers, 2 tanks and 29 dps instead.

  10. #50
    Elemental Lord Gheld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox2042 View Post
    They should make it 40 man with 9 healers, 2 tanks and 29 dps instead.
    That would melt a lot of people's computers.

  11. #51
    BAD idea .. more tanks needed to make many groups, dps queues will be 2X longer, 1 dead might mean a wipe

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    Except that on Malkorok I'd rather have somebody who stands in purple puddles than somebody who has higher dps.

    I'd rather have somebody who dispels on protectors than had high HPS.
    In my experience, those are the same people.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonar View Post
    'Cause right now, for 25-man, you're not already waiting forever for 2 tanks.
    Exactly this. Changing 25man to 10man you realize you just doubled the amount of tanks needed when we are tank deprived as it is?
    The workaround would be allowing other classes to tank or designing lfrs to not require a tanking class.

  14. #54
    Elemental Lord Gheld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgummage View Post
    I think more individual responsibility is the last thing a large percentage of LFR DPS need if you want LFRs to continue not being a complete wipefest.
    Where's this so called complete wipefest? Am I hopping into the wrong que?

    I wasn't aware that the occasional wipe was a wipefest.

    You should try progression raiding. If you think lfr is a wipefest, fasten your seat belt.

  15. #55
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    Blizzard has stated over and over again that 10m LFR would not work because 10m raiding has a higher executional requirement than 25m. They are totally different styles of raiding. If you want to zerg the boss with near strangers for more drops per person with several battle rezes as a crutch, you coast in 25m. If you want personal responsibility and a chance to actually tackle challenging content and earn your progression, you go 10m.

    In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.
    So clearly 10m LFR will never happen.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrophobia View Post
    Well that's the idea of the Game isn't it. You wipe for a reason and then you learn yourself or someone tells you the mistake you make. And you fix it.
    Where if you don't want to learn you get kicked unlike the curent 25 mechanics where it will neither be someone to see your mistake or tell you about it. And in the small ocasions you get kicked for it it will be after too many wipes already.
    If it's a wipe free enviroment. Make it an ingame cut scene and after you watch it get the gear in your mailbox.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Like you said the problem is not the system it's the players.
    But those players in 25 man get away with it. AFK in the shadows and never learn.
    In order to teach those ppl you need to change something and in my opinion it's the amount of ppl

    .......... Big groups let individuals get out of the spot light much easier .......

    Make LFR 10 man and problems will shine and ppl will react to them and fix them.

    In the long term it will fix the Queue times where right now they are only slowly becoming longer and longer
    So, you change it to 10man, run the risk of having 6 dps phoning it in and now have longer queue times because you just doubled the need for more tanks, how does that change anything? Having afkers is an offshoot of the lfr design, everyone is aware of it, you can make raids any reasonably size group and it still wont change the afk dynamic. You're dealing with a group of strangers who feel no compulsion to perform because they have nothing to loose by not. Implementing a 1-2 day ban may help weed out the bad apples from the system but ultimately lfr is largely succeeding only in stopping people from queing.

  17. #57
    Elemental Lord Gheld's Avatar
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    Here's a real LFR fix:

    GM's will monitor the dialogue in every LFR run. When a player starts acting like an LFR hero, they will check off a checkbox for that player which causes their combat log to fill with false readouts that tell them everyone is doing the exact same dps, hps, dispels, interrupts, etc.

    EDIT: Oh, and any player caught giving constructive feedback/advice gets a free warforged seal (directly out of one of the complainers stash).

  18. #58
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    OP just explained what Flex is for. But obviously you don't want to go through the hassle of inviting ppl. However you also don't want underperforming ppl.

    Plus: Blizzard pretty much used your arguments to say whey LFR is 25 man and not 10 man. 3 nabs dead in 25 man...not a problem. The same 3 nabs dead in a 10 man...problem.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  19. #59
    Elemental Lord Arbs's Avatar
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    Why not just make LFR a Demo with limited Bosses & a glismp at what the raid holds, each week bosses changes, but you never get to kill the final boss.

    Give people a reason to want to get better & get into Flex & kill the final boss.
    I'm neither Pro or Anti Flying, I just have a different opinion on the matter.

  20. #60
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    Retarded idea, the dps queues are already an hour + for alot of people, would be more than double if it was 10 man
    No it's not. It's a great idea, it just needs a bit of work, like your responses.
    "There are other sites on the internet designed for people to make friends or relationships. This isn't one" Darsithis Super Moderator
    Proof that the mmochamp community can be a bitter and lonely place. What a shame.

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