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  1. #61
    The Patient Pyrophobia's Avatar
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    ........ What if we don't change LFR from 25 to 10 but instead add 2 different queues a 25 and a 10 one. Sign up for one you like.

    I can bet that all the descent players etc will move to signing up for 10 even with double the queue, because they will be able to easily deal with low geared low skilled players by teaching them or removing them if they fail over and over again. It will be the choise for ppl that like to learn aswell and that search to meet new ppl.

    That will be accepted way easier and the ppl that afk in 25 will have no reason to cry as 25 will still exist only that it will stop working because of lack of ppl to carry the afk-ers

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    OP just explained what Flex is for. But obviously you don't want to go through the hassle of inviting ppl. However you also don't want underperforming ppl.

    Plus: Blizzard pretty much used your arguments to say whey LFR is 25 man and not 10 man. 3 nabs dead in 25 man...not a problem. The same 3 nabs dead in a 10 man...problem.
    3 mans dead in 25 equal 1.2 ppl in 10 man and 10 man can still cary that in normal in flex and probably can carry 2-3 in LFR problem is in 25 not 3 ppl die but 9 and nobody bothers to remember if those 9 are the same as the previous 9 that died on the previous boss and when they do ... it will take quite some time to revew 9 ppl mistakes explain them or replace them ....... 1 by 1 and then wait for 9 more ppl slowing the raid way more than similar in ratio situation in 10 man. 2 -3 ppl mistaking there will be revewed way easier because it's move visible and the explaining will be more social or the replacement much faster

    Virtualy 25 holds no reason for ppl not to fail as there is lack of punishment. And when there is lack of punishment you attract ppl that abuse it.
    Last edited by Pyrophobia; 2013-10-25 at 05:00 PM.

  2. #62
    Elemental Lord Gheld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Why not just make LFR a Demo with limited Bosses & a glismp at what the raid holds, each week bosses changes, but you never get to kill the final boss.

    Give people a reason to want to get better & get into Flex & kill the final boss.
    I think for all the "elite extreme hard core" players they should make epics feel epic again.

    There should only be a 0.1% chance to get epic loot in normal and hc. The rest of the time it should drop vanilla dungeon blues.

    Players who raid normal mode should be prevented from doing lfr and flex (which now drop better gear than hc) and lfr and flex raiders are subjected to a NDA about the legendary loot that drops there.

  3. #63
    Stood in the Fire silver9172's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    It is for some people. Due to my wonky scheduling, I cannot join a consistent Flex or Normal group, though I would like to, and though I try. Unfortunate as it may be, LFR is my progression for right now, and I do learn from it. There are people like me out there.

    Last night, it took us three wipes to down Garrosh. At the end, there were still people derping by not killing the weapons and tunneling the boss, but there were enough people who learned and were doing it right that we succeeded.
    See 3 wipes in LFR is understandable, but going to 10m and still having those people who are not like you and willing to learn in a concentrated group will go 10-20 wipes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrophobia View Post
    ........ What if we don't change LFR from 25 to 10 but instead add 2 different queues a 25 and a 10 one. Sign up for one you like.

    I can bet that all the descent players etc will move to signing up for 10 even with double the queue, because they will be able to easily deal with low geared low skilled players by teaching them or removing them if they fail over and over again. It will be the choise for ppl that like to learn aswell and that search to meet new ppl.

    That will be accepted way easier and the ppl that afk in 25 will have no reason to cry as 25 will still exist only that it will stop working because of lack of ppl to carry the afk-ers



    3 mans dead in 25 equal 1.2 ppl in 10 man and 10 man can still cary that in normal in flex and probably can carry 2-3 in LFR problem is in 25 not 3 ppl die but 9 and nobody bothers to remember if those 9 are the same as the previous 9 that died on the previous boss and when they do ... it will take quite some time to revew 9 ppl mistakes explain them or replace them ....... 1 by 1 and then wait for 9 more ppl slowing the raid way more than similar in ratio situation in 10 man. 2 -3 ppl mistaking there will be revewed way easier because it's move visible and the explaining will be more social or the replacement much faster

    Virtualy 25 holds no reason for ppl not to fail as there is lack of punishment. And when there is lack of punishment you attract ppl that abuse it.
    Doing that would make me queue even less than I do now.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrophobia View Post
    This is the first post i start, but i believe the idea is worth it. Lets spin it around and propose it to Blizzard later if we think it could work.

    The biggest problem of LFR 25 man is the people that hide behind everyone else and do nothing or underperform a lot.
    having 25 man filled with 5-10 ppl like that you can hardly kick them because it becomes a war and if you manage to kick 1-2 more will join and ppl will start ranting about delaying the already long Queue + dungeon run

    Making LFR 10 man will only bring good things to the table
    1. Easier to spot failure and easier to explain said person what he did wrong or replace him if he refuses to learn.
    2. Easier to spot underperformance and be dealt with
    3. Less players makes the time spent more sociable. People can use their social skills where in 25 man you only seldomly make some small chat via whisper.
    4. 10 man will need more tanks and healers vs DPS Ratio than 25 man but that is good.
    ... WHY:
    4.1 AFK dps-ers will not like to spend 1h waiting to get kicked after they refuse to learn so either they conver to active dps-ers or will soon stop doing LFR
    4.2 Normal players will test being a healer or tank after a long queue and will probably enjoy it much more when they don't have to do all the work.

    In Long term this change will make much more tanks and healers available within the game. And will also can start making the game more sociable.
    Big raids might be fun but they brign the burden of someone Organising all that and the rest beign quiet so everything can run smooth when 1 is explaining.
    25 man lets much mor emistakes go unnoticed and that's not a good thing. It Dumbs Out the WoW population and we see where that gets us every next day.

    Queue times will increase because ratio of dps vs tank+heal would be lower.

    You will wipe more because of strict performance requirements.

    LFR will be unrunnable at all because of strict requirements...

    How is this a fix?

  5. #65
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrophobia View Post
    Well that's the idea of the Game isn't it. You wipe for a reason and then you learn yourself or someone tells you the mistake you make. And you fix it.
    Where if you don't want to learn you get kicked unlike the curent 25 mechanics where it will neither be someone to see your mistake or tell you about it. And in the small ocasions you get kicked for it it will be after too many wipes already.
    If it's a wipe free enviroment. Make it an ingame cut scene and after you watch it get the gear in your mailbox.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Like you said the problem is not the system it's the players.
    But those players in 25 man get away with it. AFK in the shadows and never learn.
    In order to teach those ppl you need to change something and in my opinion it's the amount of ppl

    .......... Big groups let individuals get out of the spot light much easier .......

    Make LFR 10 man and problems will shine and ppl will react to them and fix them.

    In the long term it will fix the Queue times where right now they are only slowly becoming longer and longer
    That's what LFR is there for..........people who don't want to learn their class or mechanics, tunnel on bosses and not care.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by highdesi View Post
    Queue times will increase because ratio of dps vs tank+heal would be lower.

    You will wipe more because of strict performance requirements.

    LFR will be unrunnable at all because of strict requirements...

    How is this a fix?
    Exactly, theres more room for error in 25 man, I've seen groups with 3-6 people down and the boss still goes down.

    If you lose even one in 10 man, it can be a wipe, let alone a 10 man lfr where people are prone to die

  7. #67
    Would this not essentially increase queue times x2.5?

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    No it's not. It's a great idea, it just needs a bit of work, like your responses.
    No. It's a bad idea for all of the reasons people have stated already.

    The bottom line is that LFR isn't broken and therefore doesn't need to be fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrophobia
    I can bet that all the descent players etc will move to signing up for 10 even with double the queue, because they will be able to easily deal with low geared low skilled players by teaching them or removing them if they fail over and over again. It will be the choise for ppl that like to learn aswell and that search to meet new ppl.
    No. People are not going sign up for 90 minute or longer queues. The only reason people put up with 45 minute queues is because they have no choice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    That's what LFR is there for..........people who don't want to learn their class or mechanics, tunnel on bosses and not care.
    Yes, that accounts for some of the people who like and run LFR. But that's not nearly the entire picture. That is, of course, the short sighted, anti-LFR crowd's view.

    Congratulations one being part of that group.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  9. #69
    The Patient sourmonkey's Avatar
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    10 man raids still require 2 tanks , and usually that's what everyone is waiting on .

    They should just take out protection stances , specs IMHO make it to where dps classes can switch to a tank role within any spec.

    Ie no tank in group let the priest use aura of protection and gain the hp and avoidance a tank would , same idea with any spec.

    However I don't think it's truly the roles fault as much as people not wanting to deal with bad players who refuse to get better , or not wipe the group .

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by sourmonkey View Post
    10 man raids still require 2 tanks , and usually that's what everyone is waiting on .

    They should just take out protection stances , specs IMHO make it to where dps classes can switch to a tank role within any spec.

    Ie no tank in group let the priest use aura of protection and gain the hp and avoidance a tank would , same idea with any spec.

    However I don't think it's truly the roles fault as much as people not wanting to deal with bad players who refuse to get better , or not wipe the group .
    Tbh it's often the healers that people wait for during the waittime to enter. When first inside it's the tanks. They should really cut healers down to 4-5 since you never need 6.
    They mostly just eat 2-3 healers healing, so you have 3 with high healing, and 3 with near no healing.

    Another issue with 10mans that nobody mentioned, is that if you go down to that, each individual matters a lot more, but a lot that go into lfr do it because they have time, but can be interrupted with any kind of stuff. People afking during a combat is rather normal, and will still occur even there, from things like:
    The famous doorbell,
    The crying kid,
    Some familymember talks to you
    Somebody calls you,
    A short DC,
    and many other things. That won't change even if they had a higher risk from getting kicked. It's the very reason they do lfr and not flex/normal/hc.
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  11. #71
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    How about this (stealing this idea from SWTOR a little):

    At the end of the LFR a window pops up sorta like at the end of the battleground. Only it shows various stats about the players in the raid, healing done, damage taken, whatever makes sense. Next to each player's name is a button, its the "vote for MVP button". Players can vote for 3-5 people for MVP. You cannot vote for anyone you actually queued with, only people that were random.

    The top 3-5 vote getters get a bag like a satchel of mysteries only with a higher drop rate of rare mounts and pets.

  12. #72
    A much better fix would be to change LFR to use Flex technology and allow it to scale down to a single tank and half the healers. So you might end up with 1 tank, 3 healers, and 20 DPS and complete content.

  13. #73
    I think a better solution (which i mentioned on the forums before) is to have an evaluation system that looks at your healing/dps after each encounter. If you are not within a set parameter you don't get any loot from that boss, you don't get to bonus roll, and you automatically set to be freely available to be votekicked by anyone (no "this player can't be kicked for 2 hours when anyone tries to kick you).

    The parameters would be set for each class, for each encounter. Ie:

    elemental shaman at 496+ ilvl should be able to pull 80k+ on this fight. If you are not within 80% of this amount you fail to get gear.
    resto druid at 496+ ilvl should be able to heal 50k on this fight. If you are not within 80% of this amount you fail to get gear.

  14. #74
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Yeah but punishing people who are obeying the TOS isn't what Blizz is about, rewarding good people should be.

  15. #75
    Elemental Lord Winter Blossom's Avatar
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    Right now DPS queues are as long as an hour for people, and this idea would only make that number worse.

  16. #76
    Moderator Babylonius's Avatar
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    Everything you said will make LFR harder and worse for the people doing it. All of your discussion has nothing to do with LFR but the 10m vs 25m discussion in general.

    People will still get a 10m with those 5-10 "bads" and complain its broken, fix it to 25m.

    LFR isn't for people to learn how to play the game, its for people who are... wait for it.... Looking for raids.... but have no other means (guild, time, etc), to do so. There are plenty of methods in the game for people to learn how to play their class, most specifically LEVELING. If you want to attack the "poor" ability of the masses, then complain about refer-a-friend, heirlooms, and less XP required to level which decrease the effort and learning required to hit max level.
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  17. #77
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    Yes, that accounts for some of the people who like and run LFR. But that's not nearly the entire picture. That is, of course, the short sighted, anti-LFR crowd's view.

    Congratulations one being part of that group.
    "I don't have the time nor desire to watch videos, read the dungeon journal, or look things up, it's a game not a job"

    That's what I frequently hear, so prove me wrong?
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  18. #78
    They would have to change mechanics to make it only 1 tankable...otherwise you are doubling or more the need for tanks.
    Ret Paladin
    9/14H T16

  19. #79
    Elemental Lord Gheld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    How about this (stealing this idea from SWTOR a little):

    At the end of the LFR a window pops up sorta like at the end of the battleground. Only it shows various stats about the players in the raid, healing done, damage taken, whatever makes sense. Next to each player's name is a button, its the "vote for MVP button". Players can vote for 3-5 people for MVP. You cannot vote for anyone you actually queued with, only people that were random.

    The top 3-5 vote getters get a bag like a satchel of mysteries only with a higher drop rate of rare mounts and pets.
    This is actually the single best idea I've ever seen somebody float in an lfr thread. The best part is it would also encourage good players to be polite in order to make MVP.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    Look into openraid or oqueue for flex, its what I do right now with my alts when I want to jump into raid content on my own schedule. Its way less frustrating than LFR.
    I tried that, always get kicked when I don't have achievement or someone with higher ilvl wants to join.

    Anyways for those saying LFR is not a progression enviroment, I've used LFR to learn the basic mechanics of every single encounter in MOP, and guess what, I haven't actually died from a single mechanic, if I die it's because the tanks have died or simply can't hold aggro. Could be because I'm used to raiding from classic/tbc/wotlk so I know what to look for but saying that LFR is not a place for learning the basics of the encounters is just silly.

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