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  1. #1

    Garrosh the wall Hellscream 25 man

    We cannot figure this boss out. We are consistently getting to P2 --- 3 range. 3rd intermission. We are killing adds and getting better as we deal with them but we cant seem to make the dps timer. Everything points to raid dps on garrosh just being really too low for a kill. The thing is we are ilvl 558 raid so we are already overgearing.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Here are our logs. www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/281104/

    Our best attempts were last night. I think we are nearing 60 attempts.

    A bit about us is we are a 2 day 3hour a night 25 man. This doesn't leave us with much time to get stuck and figure it out so im really hoping we as forums xan figure it out.

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Have you thought about using heroism coming out of the first intermission so you can see if you can push to 10% before the third intermission to see if that helps?

  3. #3
    Tried it and still didnt make it had some stupid deaths. Then the one time we did hit p3 people didnt deal with adds and cleaved them down on top of me as tank. We tried kiting with hero as well but still hit the intermission. It just seems like we dont have dps and im feeling a bit at ends that I will start having to kick. I have been gearing balance mastery crit as brm tank bit maybe I will have to push more crit and just float my vengeance higher for more dps. I dont know.
    Last edited by Deathzero; 2013-10-25 at 03:15 PM. Reason: phone grish.

  4. #4
    Have you tryed to stay alive for the whole fight?

    I looked at your logs and all I can see on the fairly long tryes (I didnt looked at the shorter <6min ones) that some of you die on Iron star or Annihilate (bot fairly easy mechanics to avoid.

    How many % does he have when you go into the realm for the 3rd time?
    If you can push the remaining HP before he cast empowered MC you can survive 3 intermissions fine (if you can get to him before he has 50 energy there will be no empowered MC and it will be fine).

    I would suggest recording (in any form, but video is best) and comparing to kill video on youtube or WoL.

  5. #5
    We are about 3-7% shy usually of pushing it.

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Zinnin's Avatar
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    The DPS you have actually going into the boss during p2 is very low for your gear level. Going through random armories it looks like your averaging around 560 ilvl, yet you have most of the raid doing less then 150k dps to the boss during p2.

    For example here is a random pull just looking at p2 damage to Garrosh:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...577&target=212

    Now, just looking at the time from the start of p2, to the next brain room (LINK) you can see that your raid DPS is just too low. It is hard to decide if you have just a strat problem when people are doing the DPS that people in 530 gear would be able to do. During this period the whole raid should be in almost full burn mode, and with 560 ilvl everyone should be able to hit the 200k DPS mark, now in a more casual guild that might not be a good expectation but in general you need to just have your raiders work on their DPS. There should be no one even close to the 120k DPS mark, 120k DPS in that short of burn was possible in T14 gear.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...421&target=212
    This is another look at just this burn.

    Zazalito had 95% active time, and yet only did 100k dps.
    He had 88% uptime on Agony, 67% on Unstable Affliction, and 76% on Corruption. These should all be 98%+ easily.

    Jayski had solid uptime on his DoTs, but only had 19.8% uptime on Malefic Grasp which should be channeled way more.

    Discokidd 71.7% uptime on Vampiric Touch, should be 98%+

    Looking at some of the longer pulls it looks like people are swapping to adds and getting them down fast enough, hard to see anything else strat wise with just logs. I have a feeling if you got your raiders to take a look at their DPS and fixed some easy issues the p3 push would come pretty easily.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathzero View Post
    We are about 3-7% shy usually of pushing it.
    Thats fairly manageable, if all stay alive that ~5% can be pushed away.
    I noticed you switch low dps fairly quickly (or your people keep going in/out of raid) but below 100k DPS is just too low for that gear and content. if all of your DPS were above 100k it would make that few % non-issue.
    I would suggest to go back using the BL on pull (once the adds are tanked) for more proc/burstCD and mainly because your tryes are 10+mins meaning you can have BL for the finishing 20% and that means a lot. With BL in mid fight you are making the finish unmeaningfully longer (and harder in this case, a lot)

  8. #8
    This analysis has been made using try #11 since it was nice and long.

    You have A LOT of low dps. Both of your frost dks are... well they seem REALLY bad based on this log. I don't know if Miyomi has always been two hand or was dual wield on that fight but if she/he was 2 hand frost for that fight then she/he was doing it WAY wrong. Obliterate should far out damage frost strike and especially howling blast. HB should pretty much never be used as 2 hand except for procs and when you do straight AoE damage. Even cleaving a few isn't worth switching to Howling Blast spam. The other dk has I think a 561 ilvl and is only pulling that much dps? I don't even know where I'd begin to fix that. I feel like everybody under Moonshiffter needs to step it up, especially Zazalito. 561 ilvl, legendary cape, and only 145k? That's atrocious.

    Here is the link to my first Garrosh kill when I was at a 540-545 ilvl. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2746&e=3341
    Here's me at 560 ilvl http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6102&e=6568

    I want to say that most people in the first kill were about a 550 ilvl (with me as the exception as they had farmed heroic ToT and I had not) and in the second kill I linked, were all about 560.

    Now I wouldn't go about kicking loyal players at the moment. What you need to do if you truly care about your guild (I would hope so since you took the time to post here) is help the low players. Double check their gearing choices, ask them about their abilities and make sure they are correct for their spec. But you MUST know how every single spec plays. That's how I've always chose to run my guilds. Some players might just not understand what they're doing wrong at all and need a little friendly encouragement. If they can't be motivated to improve then they aren't worth it and then should be replaced.
    Last edited by Hctaz; 2013-10-25 at 03:33 PM. Reason: Clarification

    ^ Father and son. Winning.

  9. #9
    If you could give us some insight on the strat you're using in p2 for placement that would be helpful. Our kill was 10 man but we found that its best to have the minimum number of people (3 people i believe its 5 or 6 in 25m someone can correct this if they know better) stand out for the weapon and then run into the boss where everyone else was stacking to break the mc. This helps the people in the group not moving to focus more on maximizing dps.

  10. #10
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7933&e=8544

    We had a dps prob up till we decided that on phase 2 we all just stack on the boss, burn the weapon, deal with the mc then back on the boss.

  11. #11
    We start on the back wall opposite throne. All ranged there and just healing through wws. Once emp ww starts we are moving to the side of the room and I think peoe are spreading and letting adds land on them and die.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Femoris View Post
    If you could give us some insight on the strat you're using in p2 for placement that would be helpful. Our kill was 10 man but we found that its best to have the minimum number of people (3 people i believe its 5 or 6 in 25m someone can correct this if they know better) stand out for the weapon and then run into the boss where everyone else was stacking to break the mc. This helps the people in the group not moving to focus more on maximizing dps.
    in 25 there is enough ppl to burn MC even if you split ranged and melee. Somebody might prefer stacking atop of boss but we find easyer to stay in 2 groups.

  13. #13
    Time to start figuring out ways to increase your DPS.

    Here's one: In phase 2, have ranged run into melee before every MC. If whirlwind is the next thing he's going to cast, have the ranged stay in with melee and just heal through the damage. This means that your ranged will spend less time running and more time DPSing... plus, now you'll have melee sitting in and eating the damage instead of running out to range. It's a small, but noticeable dps gain. With a proper healing composition, you won't even need to use cooldowns. Before anyone says otherwise, we've been doing this for a while now and it's been very easy to heal through. Note: DO NOT DO THIS WITH EMPOWERED WHIRLWINDS!

    Next: One of your tanks is a monk. Do you have anyone else that can go tank? If so, stop killing phase 2/3 adds and have your monk kite them for the rest of the fight. The very first time we did this, we got the kill. If you don't have any other tanks, then it's viable to solo-tank Garrosh from that point on, assuming proper cooldown usage. It's pretty obvious that not having to kill the adds will give you the DPS you need to push the phase. Indeed, we went from wiping to the 3rd set of adds to hitting phase 3 after the first set of adds when we made this change. Monks are the only tank that is 100% self-sufficient at kiting the adds and it should be very easy to manage. If you start doing this, I'm betting you'll have a kill very shortly.

  14. #14
    Hey guys, I run the raid for this team so here's the strategy we are using. Going forward we want to commit to a 2 tank 5 healer strategy.

    We stack on the wall under Thrall and move between two points for the Desecrated Weapon. Normal cleave and knockbacks gets us through Phase 1 with minimal problems.

    Phase 2 starts and we continue the same strat. Ranged move in the for the MC and move out for the Whirlwind and Desecrate. We do not use a super seven strategy. This repeats til he gets 25 energy. After he reaches 25 energy we spread out to a marked side, try and place a Desecrate along a far wall and then use CDs to live through the Whirlwind. People pick up their adds, kill them, and then try and clump for the incoming MC. We are unable to push him before a 3rd intermission and if we hit a 3rd intermission it's an immediate wipe.

    We gave kiting one attempt last night, had issues grouping them up, and then bailed on it. Two reasons for that. First, two of our best DPS are tanks and I can't lose them and possibly push the DPS to start phase 3 before the intermission without him and the 4 healer strategy was too dicey. Too many close calls and people just barely dying so 5 heals makes me more comfortable. So I couldn't afford to lose 2 dps.
    Last edited by ipitydafool64; 2013-10-25 at 04:10 PM.

  15. #15
    High Overlord Gorthan's Avatar
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    Ignore the weapon in p2. Just use the room's corner and let the weapon drop there.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ipitydafool64 View Post
    Hey guys, I run the raid for this team so here's the strategy we are using. Going forward we want to commit to a 2 tank 5 healer strategy.

    We stack on the wall under Thrall and move between two points for the Desecrated Weapon. Normal cleave and knockbacks gets us through Phase 1 with minimal problems.

    Phase 2 starts and we continue the same strat. Ranged move in the for the MC and move out for the Whirlwind and Desecrate. We do not use a super seven strategy. This repeats til he gets 25 energy. After he reaches 25 energy we spread out to a marked side, try and place a Desecrate along a far wall and then use CDs to live through the Whirlwind. People pick up their adds, kill them, and then try and clump for the incoming MC. We are unable to push him before a 3rd intermission and if we hit a 3rd intermission it's an immediate wipe.

    We gave kiting one attempt last night, had issues grouping them up, and then bailed on it. Two reasons for that. First, two of our best DPS are tanks and I can't lose them and possibly push the DPS to start phase 3 before the intermission without him and the 4 healer strategy was too dicey. Too many close calls and people just barely dying so 5 heals makes me more comfortable. So I couldn't afford to lose 2 dps.
    Why were the adds too spread out when you tried kiting?

    Here's how we do it: After the second intermission (when the boss gets above 25 energy), we move to one end of the room and have ranged move to the corner and melee move to the middle. When the first desecrate goes out, the ranged runs to the other corner (same end of the room). In this corner of the room, there is a squareish pattern on the floor. This is a small area of the room, but it's still plenty big to spread out in and dodge the purple swirlies. We instruct everyone to STAY IN THIS AREA! All adds spawn within 20-30 yards of each other, which makes it incredibly easy for the monk tank to keg toss them and get easy aggro (plus MDs and tricks).

    So, if you're having problems with the adds being spread out, it means that your players are way too spread out. Don't give up on a strategy when there's such an easy fix available.

    Also, remember, taking a break from the boss to kill adds is a much bigger DPS loss than removing a tank from the fight. Furthermore, you have a DPS monk. You could have him spec brewmaster for the fight (which is exactly what we did).

    Finally, I'm going to again suggest that you stop having your range run out after MCs on normal whirling corruption. It's incredibly easy to heal through if you have everyone stacked up and this means that you get more DPS uptime on the boss.

    tl;dr: Try kiting again, maybe by having your DPS monk respec, and force your raid to stay in a small area of the room instead of spreading out all over the place. Stack up for normal whirling corruptions and heal through the damage -- it's easy.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Why were the adds too spread out when you tried kiting?

    Here's how we do it: After the second intermission (when the boss gets above 25 energy), we move to one end of the room and have ranged move to the corner and melee move to the middle. When the first desecrate goes out, the ranged runs to the other corner. In this corner of the room, there is a squareish pattern on the floor. This is a small area of the room, but it's still plenty big to spread out in and dodge the purple swirlies. We instruct everyone to STAY IN THIS AREA! All adds spawn within 20-30 yards of each other, which makes it incredibly easy for the monk tank to keg toss them and get easy aggro (plus MDs and tricks).

    So, if you're having problems with the adds being spread out, it means that your players are way too spread out. Don't give up on a strategy when there's such an easy fix available.

    Also, remember, taking a break from the boss to kill adds is a much bigger DPS loss than removing a tank from the fight. Furthermore, you have a DPS monk. You could have him spec brewmaster for the fight (which is exactly what we did).

    Finally, I'm going to again suggest that you stop having your range run out after MCs on normal whirling corruption. It's incredibly easy to heal through if you have everyone stacked up and this means that you get more DPS uptime on the boss.

    tl;dr: Try kiting again, maybe by having your DPS monk respec, and force your raid to stay in a small area of the room instead of spreading out all over the place. Stack up for normal whirling corruptions and heal through the damage -- it's easy.
    I attempted to kite the adds we ended up getting another intermission. Problem was some people had killed adds making half of them empowered. Since we got the 3rd intermission we had a new set of adds before we got back leaving me sandwiched between existing empowered adds and new adds. I died shortly thereafter. Since I was trying to repickup all adds. Kite is not going to be viable if we cant make that intermission.
    Last edited by Deathzero; 2013-10-25 at 04:28 PM.

  18. #18
    Well, if it helps this is our Kill video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZzxc1wzBa4

    not so much to tell, its your setup of 2 tanks, 5 heals.
    Killed Sep 29, 2013 19:27:17 GMT
    Recorded Guild Item Level: 554.75 (25-man)

    I hope it can help anything. The add kiting can be a bit unclear, we use every DPS with taunt to pick one on themself or cross taunt and burst them asap.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathzero View Post
    I attempted to kite the adds we ended up getting another intermission. Problem was some people had killed adds making half of them empowered. Since we got the 3rd intermission we had a new set of adds before we got back leaving me sandwiched between existing empowered adds and new adds. I died shortly thereafter. Since I was trying to repickup all adds. Kite is not going to be viable if we cant make that intermission.
    Again, this is another issue with an easy solution:

    First, figure out why the adds are dying. Is it because people are attacking them? Well, tell them to stop. Is it because they're getting hit by cloak procs? Then stop kiting them on top of the boss.

    Kiting obviously requires practice. Garrosh's room is huge -- you shouldn't ever be in a situation where you don't have an escape.


    I'm curious: What percent is the boss at when you hit the second intermission?

  20. #20
    Hopefully I dont have to deal with 3rd intermission and come up with a strat to deal with adds left on ground before it.

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