Page 1 of 5
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1
    Moderator Babylonius's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Behind you
    Posts
    1,205

    Elitism of Normal Raiding and Misguided LFR Hate

    **Caveat** I'm a heroic raider, playing for 6 years, who uses LFR to hit my VP cap, to get the odd piece I need, practice a new spec, test new gearing, or at the start of a tier to get a gear edge. I am someone who has the time and desire to commit to a raid schedule, so I'm certainly not the designed audience for LFR, specially with the advent of FLEX. That being said, I love the idea of LFR and how its been implemented. I'm sure it has achieved its goal of broadening the audience of people who are raiding and getting to experience the content.

    Elitism
    Obviously everyone knows LFR can be tedious and full of a few squeaky wheels. Queues can take forever and there is always the few players who are purposefully or accidentally making the experience negative for others. On the contrary there are times where it goes smooth and works as intended. There are tons of posts (just | like | here) that blame LFR for how LFR is and the "decline" of the current WoW masses and how "less skilled players have become". There is no shortage of LFR hatred out there and much of it is from personal experiences so its difficult to argue what others didn't experience (although its the internet, so there is always those who try).

    I personally haven't noticed a drop in the skill of the players, its that the Normal, Heroic, Casual, Elite, whatever, players are being mixed much more now than they were in past expansions so the disparity between the "LFR" raiders and the "Normal" raiders is much more evident. In the times before LFR you were either a Heroic or Normal or Non raider, Hard Modes or Normal Modes raiders, Black Temple or Kara raiders. Now we added LFR so that more people are getting involved in raiding, which is their point. It has had the unfortunate side effect that the "Normal" raiders have been looking down on the "LFR" ones much like the "Heroic" raiders of the past looked down on the "Normal" or "Non" raiders. The insult has moved from "Well, you've never even killed the end boss" to "Well, you've never even killed the end boss on Normal". I haven't noticed as much "Heroic" vs "Normal" elitism or insulting as it was in BC, Wrath, etc. it has moved to "Raiders" vs "Players who raid".

    Less Skilled Masses
    Like I said above, I haven't noticed an overall drop in the skill of the players, just that there are more players that I come into contact with through LFR that I wouldn't otherwise get to raid next to. I do however have an alternative answer to any belief that the skill of the players is declining.

    I saw a marked change in the skill of players at max level with the advent of Refer-A-Friend, Heirloom gear, and the decrease in XP required to level. In my opinion this makes sense. I learned how to play my character by leveling them up, by questing, through dungeons, back when things like EJ were just beginning. Did I hit max level having mastered my class? Absolutely not, but I had a general idea. With the ability to level 3x as fast with RAF or 45% faster (?) with Heirloom gear, combined with less XP needed there is much less time for new players or players new to a class to learn the ins and outs of the class. *Hyperbole approaching: If you're getting 10 new levels every hour and a new spell every 5 levels, why would you take the time to learn what the new things do when the previous things got you there.* With the decreased time required to level there is decreased opportunity and time to learn what should be learned to make the most out of ones class at max level. New players gifted levels or carried by RAF friends are given a toolbox full of abilities that they've never had the reason to use and then yelled at for not knowing what they all do.

    I also feel that the LFD function, more so than LFR, attributes to less knowledge of a class for players new to the game or to a class. If you can level to max through dungeons as a DPS, there isn't any instances of where you have to do the most damage as possible to kill the target before it kills you, you have a tank to do that, so any DPS you do will speed it up, but rarely effects the eventual outcome. Tanks don't often have to learn how to keep themselves alive or kill a target before it kills them because there are DPS to kill it for them, and healers to keep them alive. Healers learn how to heal, I have little problem with dungeon-ing as a healer as it teaches you exactly how to do what you need, to a certain degree, and its hard to learn how to heal while you're trying to kill the quest mob.


    Don't get me wrong, I love having to spend less time leveling a toon, but I'm the kind of player who researches the best rotation and spec for leveling and I fill the skills into the rotation as I learn them. For someone who isn't as thorough or is new to the game, there isn't the same need or opportunity to learn new skills and the nuances of the class.


    TLDR; Poor LFRs and "bad" players are just a symptom of a problem that is the side-effect of Quality of Life improvements made to the game that have overall made the game better.
    - - Monk Class Forum Moderator - -
    14/14H WW/BrM Monk | Armory | WoWHeroes | Ascent

  2. #2
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Spook central
    Posts
    4,154
    of course,
    it's an example observation bias

    if you suddenly see more of x, it may be that are more x than there were before but it may also be that you are now in a position to be confronted more often with the x that always existed.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  3. #3
    this thread is new and refreshing

    Post constructively
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-10-25 at 08:30 PM.

  4. #4
    The main problem that gets up in an elitists grill (not to be confused with the elite) is that these dirty casuals can get purple gear. In the olden days of raiding you could judge a players skill by what purples they had, and you were lucky to have a few purples on you. They never quite got the memo that green/blue/purple was changed to mean what kind of disenchant mats that you got. Since they did not change with the times they still hold purple gear as a symbol of the elite.

    Todays gamer has to look 3 pixels lower than the purple word to determine skill (the words LFR, Flex, Normal and Heroic) or look at the ilevel of the gear. The elitist who tries to protect the purple from the casual raider is like the guy who refuses to cut his mullet off and still goes around acting like the 80’s will make a return.

    They can’t help but carry on about protecting the purples because they can’t seem to feel special about what they do unless someone else tells them that they are special. They dream of the day when someone bows to them and says, “OMG you have tier 14 gear! Your awesome! I want to be just like you!” and that can’t happen if someone else has a shittier version of the same gear with a different color.

    Any other escuse they use against LFR is just a side escuse created in a vein attempt to uphold the status quo they preferred, to keep the mullet and bring back the 80’s. All because they are incapable of feeling special about what they do by themselves.

    The Elite on the other hand are completely capable of changing with the times and feeling good about what they do based on their own experiences and accomplishments. They don’t need cheerleaders.

  5. #5
    Pit Lord Packers01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    2,466
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    The main problem that gets up in an elitists grill (not to be confused with the elite) is that these dirty casuals can get purple gear. In the olden days of raiding you could judge a players skill by what purples they had, and you were lucky to have a few purples on you. They never quite got the memo that green/blue/purple was changed to mean what kind of disenchant mats that you got. Since they did not change with the times they still hold purple gear as a symbol of the elite.

    Todays gamer has to look 3 pixels lower than the purple word to determine skill (the words LFR, Flex, Normal and Heroic) or look at the ilevel of the gear. The elitist who tries to protect the purple from the casual raider is like the guy who refuses to cut his mullet off and still goes around acting like the 80’s will make a return.

    They can’t help but carry on about protecting the purples because they can’t seem to feel special about what they do unless someone else tells them that they are special. They dream of the day when someone bows to them and says, “OMG you have tier 14 gear! Your awesome! I want to be just like you!” and that can’t happen if someone else has a shittier version of the same gear with a different color.

    Any other escuse they use against LFR is just a side escuse created in a vein attempt to uphold the status quo they preferred, to keep the mullet and bring back the 80’s. All because they are incapable of feeling special about what they do by themselves.

    The Elite on the other hand are completely capable of changing with the times and feeling good about what they do based on their own experiences and accomplishments. They don’t need cheerleaders.
    That must be it.........

    The real reason is WOW is old game that people have played for years. With this comes a certain level of standards that people expect for raids. If you make the choice to come to the raid without enchants, gems, reforges etc what good are you? Also why is it my responsibility to then tell you what you're supposed to be doing?

  6. #6
    We live in a world where the unwashed masses have taken over.

    Achievers are looked down on because they make unachievers feel bad.

    High schools have been doing away with honor rolls or valedictorians, little league's give out trophies to all the teams or don't keep score, etc.

    Maybe the problem isn't with the elitest achievers, maybe the problem is some people are so insecure that others accomplishing things makes them feel bad about themselves.

    "He can't have a trophy if I can't have one too!"

    that's the mentality that's ruined WoW and our society.

    Things should be given out on merit and accomplishment.

    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?

  7. #7
    Moderator Babylonius's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Behind you
    Posts
    1,205
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    That must be it.........

    The real reason is WOW is old game that people have played for years. With this comes a certain level of standards that people expect for raids. If you make the choice to come to the raid without enchants, gems, reforges etc what good are you? Also why is it my responsibility to then tell you what you're supposed to be doing?
    I absolutely agree, but that the standards people hold others to for Normal raiding, should not be the same standard for LFR. It would be unfair to hold a player who's only ever raided Normals to the standard of Heroics because they are very different and require different things.
    - - Monk Class Forum Moderator - -
    14/14H WW/BrM Monk | Armory | WoWHeroes | Ascent

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Babylonius View Post
    I absolutely agree, but that the standards people hold others to for Normal raiding, should not be the same standard for LFR. It would be unfair to hold a player who's only ever raided Normals to the standard of Heroics because they are very different and require different things.
    you are right....one requires no help and one requires training wheels for life

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    We live in a world where the unwashed masses have taken over.

    Achievers are looked down on because they make unachievers feel bad.

    High schools have been doing away with honor rolls or valedictorians, little league's give out trophies to all the teams or don't keep score, etc.

    Maybe the problem isn't with the elitest achievers, maybe the problem is some people are so insecure that others accomplishing things makes them feel bad about themselves.

    "He can't have a trophy if I can't have one too!"

    that's the mentality that's ruined WoW and our society.

    Things should be given out on merit and accomplishment.

    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?
    The problem is that most of the 'elitists' are players who are not elite, but they believe that by taking up this kind of attitude it makes them like the true elite. A real life analogy would be where you have 'poor' people who oppose taxing the wealthy, because they have the delusion that one day they might have significant amounts of money.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    The stars may be far away, but people still reach for them. -My Grandfather

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    That must be it.........

    The real reason is WOW is old game that people have played for years. With this comes a certain level of standards that people expect for raids. If you make the choice to come to the raid without enchants, gems, reforges etc what good are you? Also why is it my responsibility to then tell you what you're supposed to be doing?
    So why do you think it is your responsibility to tell someone what they should not be able to do like LFR? It is none of your business what someone else does.

  11. #11
    Moderator Babylonius's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Behind you
    Posts
    1,205
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    you are right....one requires no help and one requires training wheels for life
    1. Are you saying people who raid Normals require no help?
    2. Saying they require "training wheels for life" assumes they can never ever get better, and if you read what I said, using LFR as training wheels is not its intent, thats what leveling was originally, and should be, for
    - - Monk Class Forum Moderator - -
    14/14H WW/BrM Monk | Armory | WoWHeroes | Ascent

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    We live in a world where the unwashed masses have taken over.

    Achievers are looked down on because they make unachievers feel bad.

    High schools have been doing away with honor rolls or valedictorians, little league's give out trophies to all the teams or don't keep score, etc.

    Maybe the problem isn't with the elitest achievers, maybe the problem is some people are so insecure that others accomplishing things makes them feel bad about themselves.

    "He can't have a trophy if I can't have one too!"

    that's the mentality that's ruined WoW and our society.

    Things should be given out on merit and accomplishment.

    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?
    You don't want people to earn things, you want to be recognized for earning things. In fact the less people who earn it the better you feel about yourself. I don't care how you feel about yourself. You have better stats and the gear has heroic raid written on it with a huge ilevel. You earned your reward. No one in LFR is bragging about what they got.

  13. #13
    No LFR encourages slacking, trolling and other toxic behavior more than anything that ever existed in WoW

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    High schools have been doing away with honor rolls or valedictorians, little league's give out trophies to all the teams or don't keep score, etc.
    That's a problem because it has an impact in the real world. You shouldn't want the nicest guy running the company; you should want the guy who's good at math and critical thinking. Unfortunately that's not how our society runs right now, and I think you're right that this shift is partially to blame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    "He can't have a trophy if I can't have one too!"

    that's the mentality that's ruined WoW
    No, because WoW is a fantasy. It's just a game. The more time you spend on it, the less time you spend improving society. Your skewed priorities in this regard are a symptom of how far gone our society actually is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    Things should be given out on merit and accomplishment.
    In real life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?
    Nothing, in the real world. WoW elitists expect to be rewarded for screwing around longer/more competently than their fellow players. It's like me demanding a better seat at the movie theatre because I'm more invested in the movie than the guy next to me. It makes no sense.

  15. #15
    Moderator Babylonius's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Behind you
    Posts
    1,205
    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieChicken View Post
    No LFR encourages slacking, trolling and other toxic behavior more than anything that ever existed in WoW
    Much of that has been said about trade chat, random BG's, and pugging.
    - - Monk Class Forum Moderator - -
    14/14H WW/BrM Monk | Armory | WoWHeroes | Ascent

  16. #16
    The Patient Meqq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    212
    The thing that annoys me the most about LFR is that it doesn't even give incentive to improve your play, since you can just afk everything and still get loot.

    I gave up on LFR after seeing people post "Just wipe a few times for determination stacks so we can faceroll it" in raid chat a few days ago.

    LFR's are even worse now since the somewhat decent people have moved on to flex and the terribads/bots/leechers are left behind in LFR.

  17. #17
    Didnt really read all of it but..

    Apart from the AFKers/Leechers in LFR, which is usually 1-2 Healers 2-4 DPS in total, the rest usually play..Not very well but they try and its usually good enough for the 2-5 DPS that do over 120K to carry them.

    The problem occurs when you have a Normal raider, a delusional normal raider.

    Normals raiders have this fake sense of elitism..What i mean by Normal raider is.

    They arent good enough to progress into Heroics into a decent time frame aka a month plus into the patch already,and they are like 12/14 or 13/14 yet they believe they are god send.

    They dont really know whats going on in the fight, they are leeching their guild pretty much, but they act so mighty in LFR, without even dominating the meters at anything.

    Those are the problem.

    The LFR players usually listen, after a wipe or two, they leechers will get kicked, the problem is the Normal raider, talking like he has a clue, when he doesnt..He doesnt know what happened, he knows that Fire was bad so he didnt stand in it, but thats about it.

    He doesnt know why the raid wiped or how, he thinks he did good and starts blaming randomly, causing an even bigger mess..

    Loot and colors doesnt matter for years now..as long as Blizzard stops protecting LFR with the kicking system and time stuff, it can be a very good thing.

    Heroic raiders never talk, they carry the group, most veteran raiders in LFR, dont talk, they carry the group.

    Yeah, of course they do more DPS than average with their 550 item level, but at the same time they are usually doing 70% of what they should be doing if not less.

    TLDR: The LFR raider will listen and arent usually leeching..The problem is the normal raider thinking he is high and mighty while not even managing to clear normal a month into the patch or more, usually AFKing on an alt, or being useless while blaming left and right.
    Last edited by potis; 2013-10-25 at 09:39 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Meqq View Post
    The thing that annoys me the most about LFR is that it doesn't even give incentive to improve your play, since you can just afk everything and still get loot.
    I can unsubscribe until the next expansion and steamroll through the previous tier's raids and collect heroic loot. What's your point? If you're AFK you're not really having any fun anyway. If you're actually trying really hard in LFR why should your efforts be wasted because a guy in your group was AFK. It's better to let a couple of trolls/children AFK their way to loot than to punish the majority of the group for a few random strangers' bad behavior.

  19. #19
    I like LFR. In fact it's been the main thing keeping me in the game over the last couple of months.

    It reminds me of the old Wintergrasp where a random bunch of strangers all struggle to achieve a goal together. Some are heroes, most are average and a few are slackers or whiners. But if you can pull together to a great enough degree you'll get the job done. Much more fun than structured raiding where you have to show up on time, do what you're told, play the way the boss tells you, endure hours upon hours of miserably slow "progress" and so forth.

    But one thing about LFR totally baffles me. It's the number of people who apparently don't read or can't read anything at all. First time I did the Spoils fight we were dividing up healers and I said "OK, I'm a heal on the blue team. Other healers sound off!" One other healer spoke up and the rest were silent. Last night, again on Spoils, the raid leader made groups and then said "groups 1 and 3 on blue, 2 and 4 on red". But, after that, we still had a bunch of people who went to the wrong place. I've seen dozens of other examples where players simply don't seem to know what is being said.

    I'd honestly like to know what the deal is. Can 20 or 30% of the players not read English? Do they turn off all chat? Do they just not care? Do they think they are too cool to talk? A mix of all these?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Meqq View Post
    The thing that annoys me the most about LFR is that it doesn't even give incentive to improve your play, since you can just afk everything and still get loot.

    I gave up on LFR after seeing people post "Just wipe a few times for determination stacks so we can faceroll it" in raid chat a few days ago.

    LFR's are even worse now since the somewhat decent people have moved on to flex and the terribads/bots/leechers are left behind in LFR.
    No incentive to improve your play? This is one of those things you say because it sounds good but doesn't actually mean anything. You will get out of it what you put into it. If you go into LFR to socialize with your friends while gearing up then you get good times and gear ups. If you go in with a friend that has been away a while and needs to gear up to raid you get your friend back into raiding, they relearn their class and get loot while socializing with you. If you go in to practice a new rotation, try out a spec or just to practice your muscle memory then you better your play style. If you take a noob in and dust the noob off of them so they can learn to raid then they are getting the mentor ship they wanted. If someone wants to join your raid group you can take them in at any time of day to see how the behave and perform in a raid like environment without wasting a raid slot if it turns out they don't fit the bill. If someone wants to gear up their alt or get raid worthy off spec gear they can and that allows them to switch hit if the group needs more or less healing/dps. If you want to practice attunement disks or dorrummus maze you can at any time of day without wasting scheduled raid time.

    There are plenty of incentives in LFR.
    Last edited by DeadmanWalking; 2013-10-25 at 10:12 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •