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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    We live in a world where the unwashed masses have taken over.

    Achievers are looked down on because they make unachievers feel bad.

    High schools have been doing away with honor rolls or valedictorians, little league's give out trophies to all the teams or don't keep score, etc.

    Maybe the problem isn't with the elitest achievers, maybe the problem is some people are so insecure that others accomplishing things makes them feel bad about themselves.

    "He can't have a trophy if I can't have one too!"

    that's the mentality that's ruined WoW and our society.

    Things should be given out on merit and accomplishment.

    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?
    Wow. That is one way of seeing it, if you want to lump everything into a single basket. Except that is not quite the case. This is the like the professional having their professional leagues, teams and trophies. The amateurs have their own leagues, their teams and their trophies. The professional in teams plays in the professional league, wins professional trophies. The amateurs plays in amateurs teams in amateurs leagues and wins amateurs trophies. But the professionals are angry that there are amateurs have their amateur teams, playing in an amatuer league winning amateur trophies.

    This is not about one looking down at the other. It is, for some reason, some raiders are angry about people only raiding in LFR and earning LFR gear. The LFR raider is not getting normal or heroic gear. They are getting LFR gear. Yet some raiders are angry about this.

    People are getting gear relative to their effort in the game. LFR raiders get lowest quality gear. Normal raiders get better gear. Heroic raiders get the best gear. But this is not enough for some. They don't want the LFR, even when LFR has no impact in their enjoyment of the game.

  2. #22
    Warchief Packers01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    So why do you think it is your responsibility to tell someone what they should not be able to do like LFR? It is none of your business what someone else does.
    When you effect 24 other people, including myself it is. I don't think it's too much to ask that you simply try.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    No incentive to improve your play? This is one of those things you say because it sounds good but doesn't actually mean anything. You will get out of it what you put into it. If you go into LFR to socialize with your friends while gearing up then you get good times and gear ups. If you go in with a friend that has been away a while and needs to gear up to raid you get your friend back into raiding, they relearn their class and get loot while socializing with you. If you go in to practice a new rotation, try out a spec or just to practice your muscle memory then you better your play style. If you take a noob in and dust the noob off of them so they can learn to raid then they are getting the mentor ship they wanted. If someone wants to join your raid group you can take them in at any time of day to see how the behave and perform in a raid like environment without wasting a raid slot if it turns out they don't fit the bill. If someone wants to gear up their alt or get raid worthy off spec gear they can and that allows them to switch hit if the group needs more or less healing/dps. If you want to practice attunement disks or dorrummus maze you can at any time of day without wasting scheduled raid time.

    There are plenty of incentives in LFR.
    If they are all trying and have a somewhat basic understanding of the class thats fine. Its the people who give zero effort that infect LFR and why it's such a cesspool.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    No incentive to improve your play? This is one of those things you say because it sounds good but doesn't actually mean anything. You will get out of it what you put into it. If you go into LFR to socialize with your friends while gearing up then you get good times and gear ups. If you go in with a friend that has been away a while and needs to gear up to raid you get your friend back into raiding, they relearn their class and get loot while socializing with you. If you go in to practice a new rotation, try out a spec or just to practice your muscle memory then you better your play style. If you take a noob in and dust the noob off of them so they can learn to raid then they are getting the mentor ship they wanted. If someone wants to join your raid group you can take them in at any time of day to see how the behave and perform in a raid like environment without wasting a raid slot if it turns out they don't fit the bill. If someone wants to gear up their alt or get raid worthy off spec gear they can and that allows them to switch hit if the group needs more or less healing/dps. If you want to practice attunement disks or dorrummus maze you can at any time of day without wasting scheduled raid time.

    There are plenty of incentives in LFR.
    The point he was trying to make flew right over your head. There is no incentive in LFR when you can just wipe several times to get a buff. Why try when the artificial gold sink will improve your play?

  4. #24
    I am quite amused how you wrap everything around gear. You know, noone (I mean, noone of adequate people who play this game) really cares what colour of tier you are wearing, or what title has your epic. Gear is no more than a tool that gives you ability to kill more bosses in less time. Always was, always will be.

    LFR has good side and bad side. Good side is its availability and convenience, giving lots of people a way to have fun without great commitment to shedules and other connected with raiding activity things. Bad thing is leechers/AFKers. This kind of "players" should not be able to receive any reward, because they don't deserve any reward, because they are not participating. Trust me guys, it is in our common interests that Blizzard invent some way to punish leechers/AFKers. It is not even hard, the tech is already there - look at BG "report AFK" option.

    Also. By creating such a topic you're doing the very same things you believe "elitists" do to you. There are thousands of people who are normal raiders, who don't care at all about LFR. It is not a good thing to generalise.

  5. #25
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Reason I hate LFR in easy step by step format:

    1. LFR is full of players who are honestly bad at this game. Maybe it's because they're bots, maybe they're just kids who are up past their bedtime, but there's way too many DPS pulling auto-attack level DPS.

    2. The content is set up in a way that encourages this behavior. Day 1 nerfs is taking things way too far. IMO there should be no tier of content where sitting afk on auto attack the whole time is viable. If half your raid is auto-attacking, or not pushing the panic button on Ultraxion, they should wipe.

    3. The system is set up in a way to protect bad players. First of all, it's near impossible to kick guys from LFR right now. Most people either vote no on the kick and call you elitist for not wanting an auto-attacker, or are afk and therefor auto-vote no when the timer expires. So you're left with the good players dropping group early and getting hit with the deserter debuff.



    Solution: Raise the requirement. Perhaps change from an iLevel requirement to a proving grounds requirement. At least that way there's more control over how good you are (especially for tanks/healers, and would likely purge the auto-attacking DPS).
    Unsubscribed as of 03/10/2014.

    If you dislike where WoW is headed in your mind, quit. Really. Sitting around complaining about "promises" that may or may not have been made isn't doing anything to help your cause. It's just making you look more and more like the constantly complaining and perpetually offended.

  6. #26
    I am a multi-Realm First player...well I used to be, now I am a just a casual player because I could no longer commit to the time. I now use LFR exclusively, and what annoys me the most is people who do other formats, then bitch and moan in LFR.

    Some people have the nerve to call my dps or healing out when I am in ilvl470 and there in ilvl520+. I am doing 80k and they can faceroll 120K, and it look like I am the bad player. But with their gear they should be doing 200K+

    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic

    The dps inflation of ilvl gear is a huge problem at the moment, pisses me off so much when someone comes in to LFR 50+ilvl on me acting like a tough guy.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dotcha View Post
    The dps inflation of ilvl gear is a huge problem at the moment, pisses me off so much when someone comes in to LFR 50+ilvl on me acting like a tough guy.
    I'm with you 100% Dotcha! The iLevel power inflation is completly out of control.

    I do LFR as a healer and every fight is different so that healing numbers vary a lot. But I like to look up some of the other healers and compare how I did to them on a given fight.

    If I'm about 510 iLevel I will do roughly the same amount of healing as most other 510 level healers. Sometimes a certain class will benefit from the mechanics of a fight and sometimes people really slack which shows in recount on their activity level.

    But if I compare myself to a 530 level healer they will often be doing TWICE my healing and a 550 level will be doing FOUR times as much or more. I've seen Heroic geared healers doing EIGHT times my healing.

    Does this make any sense? Should a 20 point jump in gear double healing or dps? It's just a carrot that blizzard tosses to players. Keep grinding and you get mighty. But it's out of control.

    It trivializes content and trivializes the contribution of other players. How do you thnk it feels when you are a new level 90 and you go to do a Heroic 5 man and some guy farming valor does 20 times your DPS?

    I've been in LFRs where some Heroic level healer will whine endlessly about how his healing is carrying the raid. And I'm thinking "why in the living hell are you even here?"

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    No incentive to improve your play? This is one of those things you say because it sounds good but doesn't actually mean anything. You will get out of it what you put into it. If you go into LFR to socialize with your friends while gearing up then you get good times and gear ups. If you go in with a friend that has been away a while and needs to gear up to raid you get your friend back into raiding, they relearn their class and get loot while socializing with you. If you go in to practice a new rotation, try out a spec or just to practice your muscle memory then you better your play style. If you take a noob in and dust the noob off of them so they can learn to raid then they are getting the mentor ship they wanted. If someone wants to join your raid group you can take them in at any time of day to see how the behave and perform in a raid like environment without wasting a raid slot if it turns out they don't fit the bill. If someone wants to gear up their alt or get raid worthy off spec gear they can and that allows them to switch hit if the group needs more or less healing/dps. If you want to practice attunement disks or dorrummus maze you can at any time of day without wasting scheduled raid time.

    There are plenty of incentives in LFR.
    3100 posts in a year and a half yet you don't have time to raid 3 hours a couple nights a week? Give me a break

  9. #29
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?
    Nothing. They get to earn things. They get feats of strength. They get extra achievements, titles, and mounts, along with gear significantly more powerful.



  10. #30
    The problem with LFR is not that the players who choose to "raid" this way are necessarily bad players, but that because the mechanics of the encounters are so forgiving, players don't care about doing well in that mode.

    Sure, some players do care about doing well, and they give it their all when in an LFR encounter. Kudos to them. However, like I said, because most players know you can effectually sleep through the encounters and get loot, the general mass of players dont try.

  11. #31
    Immortal Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    We live in a world where the unwashed masses have taken over.

    Achievers are looked down on because they make unachievers feel bad.

    High schools have been doing away with honor rolls or valedictorians, little league's give out trophies to all the teams or don't keep score, etc.

    Maybe the problem isn't with the elitest achievers, maybe the problem is some people are so insecure that others accomplishing things makes them feel bad about themselves.

    "He can't have a trophy if I can't have one too!"

    that's the mentality that's ruined WoW and our society.

    Things should be given out on merit and accomplishment.

    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?
    This is so true.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    We live in a world where the unwashed masses have taken over.

    Achievers are looked down on because they make unachievers feel bad.

    High schools have been doing away with honor rolls or valedictorians, little league's give out trophies to all the teams or don't keep score, etc.

    Maybe the problem isn't with the elitest achievers, maybe the problem is some people are so insecure that others accomplishing things makes them feel bad about themselves.

    "He can't have a trophy if I can't have one too!"

    that's the mentality that's ruined WoW and our society.

    Things should be given out on merit and accomplishment.

    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?
    Why is this even an issue in regards to LFR?

    What do you get from LFR that takes so much away from normal raiding? Especially in this patch there are more exclusive rewards for normal raiders than ever before. Hell I think its more of an issue that the whole Glory to the Raider can be done on Flex, if you want to beat your chest about something that would seem the more obvious choice. (considering you used to have to kill bosses on heroic for it)

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    When you effect 24 other people, including myself it is. I don't think it's too much to ask that you simply try.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If they are all trying and have a somewhat basic understanding of the class thats fine. Its the people who give zero effort that infect LFR and why it's such a cesspool.
    See there is the problem, you assume that because a person uses LFR that they do nothing for their rewards, truth of the matter is that the majority in there do try and they have to try harder than they normally would because they have to drag a few losers with them across the finish line. You are that guy who gets cut off in traffic and flipped off so you tell everyone that no one knows how to drive and everyone is psychotic but you passed 300 cars and you don't remember them because they were following the rules of the road. But oh no, there's nothing but bads in LFR.

    I also point out that several people here who profess to being progression heroic raiders will openly admit that when they go into LFR they go afk because until it gets hard it is not worth their time. The problems in LFR are caused by just as many elite players as casuals. If they stopped shitting in the pool and everyone rolled LFR then Blizzard would up the difficulty.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    See there is the problem, you assume that because a person uses LFR that they do nothing for their rewards, truth of the matter is that the majority in there do try and they have to try harder than they normally would because they have to drag a few losers with them across the finish line. You are that guy who gets cut off in traffic and flipped off so you tell everyone that no one knows how to drive and everyone is psychotic but you passed 300 cars and you don't remember them because they were following the rules of the road. But oh no, there's nothing but bads in LFR.

    I also point out that several people here who profess to being progression heroic raiders will openly admit that when they go into LFR they go afk because until it gets hard it is not worth their time. The problems in LFR are caused by just as many elite players as casuals. If they stopped shitting in the pool and everyone rolled LFR then Blizzard would up the difficulty.
    Most of the heroic raiders do LFR at the beginning of the week if they are to go at all. That is one of the reasons why LFR is so much easier to complete at the beginning of the week rather than later. I hope they get rid of LFR and replace it with flex.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    See there is the problem, you assume that because a person uses LFR that they do nothing for their rewards, truth of the matter is that the majority in there do try and they have to try harder than they normally would because they have to drag a few losers with them across the finish line. You are that guy who gets cut off in traffic and flipped off so you tell everyone that no one knows how to drive and everyone is psychotic but you passed 300 cars and you don't remember them because they were following the rules of the road. But oh no, there's nothing but bads in LFR.

    I also point out that several people here who profess to being progression heroic raiders will openly admit that when they go into LFR they go afk because until it gets hard it is not worth their time. The problems in LFR are caused by just as many elite players as casuals. If they stopped shitting in the pool and everyone rolled LFR then Blizzard would up the difficulty.
    Personally when I need to go into LFR I try my hardest to just get it done but when 10 idiots sit there auto attacking with their ungemmed gear I stop trying. I refuse to carry those kinds of players until they start trying or leave.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodletters View Post
    Most of the heroic raiders do LFR at the beginning of the week if they are to go at all. That is one of the reasons why LFR is so much easier to complete at the beginning of the week rather than later. I hope they get rid of LFR and replace it with flex.
    Can I assume you are a heroic raider who doesn't like LFR because it's to easy and you want it removed?

    So, by your own logic, you are going into LFR with your high level raiding gear making all the LFR boss mechanics trivial for everyone else...essentially ruining the difficulty level for all the rest of us.

    Thanks heroic raiders...thanks for ruining LFR for all of us 8(
    Haha

  17. #37
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I come to play. If I don't want to play I'll bow out and leave them to it.

    Honestly, I find the pride that people take in AFKing through LFR sort of a mystery. "Hey, look at me, I'm a parasite and loving it." It may be an accident but most of the time when I see someone like this their gear is better than mine. So I know it's not a competence thing. Then people have the nerve to blame it on LFR as if LFR forces them to queue up for a while and then do nothing once they're in. It's all BS and I hope that Blizzard finds a solution for it.

    As for ungemmed gear, yeah I understand this but I don't fully gem my gear either when I'm gearing up and replacing stuff every week although I'll put something appropriate in there, just maybe not the very best thing I could. Fully gemmed and enchanted gear isn't really a requirement to down bosses in LFR in any case. Doing more than auto-attacking is though.

    If we can fix that and fix the clowns in 540+ gear that die seven seconds into the trash then maybe it will be time to look into that.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Can I assume you are a heroic raider who doesn't like LFR because it's to easy and you want it removed?

    So, by your own logic, you are going into LFR with your high level raiding gear making all the LFR boss mechanics trivial for everyone else...essentially ruining the difficulty level for all the rest of us.

    Thanks heroic raiders...thanks for ruining LFR for all of us 8(
    Haha
    Yes, the content is too easy. On top of that, there have been instances where heroic raiders have been "required" to go into LFR because of tier set bonuses being so good. Though the real problem is that the format was designed for people who don't have time for organized raiding yet it has as much of a time sync as regular raiding does, if not more and it's not a social experience at all.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    There are plenty of incentives in LFR.
    You're not in touch with reality. The bosses will die without you coming even close to appropriate class perfomance.
    And while not everyone can do it simultaneously, you're chances of success are still quite good despite really low performance. Especially now with "determination" buff. Jesus, did they really have to give it that name? Seriously! LOL

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    We live in a world where the unwashed masses have taken over.

    Achievers are looked down on because they make unachievers feel bad.

    High schools have been doing away with honor rolls or valedictorians, little league's give out trophies to all the teams or don't keep score, etc.

    Maybe the problem isn't with the elitest achievers, maybe the problem is some people are so insecure that others accomplishing things makes them feel bad about themselves.

    "He can't have a trophy if I can't have one too!"

    that's the mentality that's ruined WoW and our society.

    Things should be given out on merit and accomplishment.

    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?
    This is exactly the issue right here that people have with a lot of raiders in WoW.

    This narcissistic attitude and need to be special snowflakes, I have no idea if it arises from real life where they don't get noticed or see themselves get overlooked as the "jocks" (to coin the American phrase) get all the attention and girls, i'm sure some psychologist could tell you.

    People who can only be happy in the game if they are able to look down on everybody else. People who are only happy if everybody is sat around admiring them.

    The other 6 million players want to be able to experience the core focus of the game without the ability to dedicate so much time to the game? TOUGH SHIT, MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. ENJOY YOUR 5 MANS SCRUBS.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dotcha View Post
    Why is this even an issue in regards to LFR?

    What do you get from LFR that takes so much away from normal raiding? Especially in this patch there are more exclusive rewards for normal raiders than ever before. Hell I think its more of an issue that the whole Glory to the Raider can be done on Flex, if you want to beat your chest about something that would seem the more obvious choice. (considering you used to have to kill bosses on heroic for it)
    Indeed it's a ridiculous standpoint that isn't valid in the vast majority of cases.

    Most people who don't raid don't want to just because they want all the epics for free, they want raiding because it's Blizzard's core focus of development time and endgame content and they want to experience it

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodletters View Post
    Yes, the content is too easy. On top of that, there have been instances where heroic raiders have been "required" to go into LFR because of tier set bonuses being so good. Though the real problem is that the format was designed for people who don't have time for organized raiding yet it has as much of a time sync as regular raiding does, if not more and it's not a social experience at all.
    I can dedicate 6-7 hours to raiding a week.
    I can't dedicate the same 6-7 hours to raiding a week...

    That is the reason LFR exists.

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