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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodletters View Post
    Yes, the content is too easy. On top of that, there have been instances where heroic raiders have been "required" to go into LFR because of tier set bonuses being so good. Though the real problem is that the format was designed for people who don't have time for organized raiding yet it has as much of a time sync as regular raiding does, if not more and it's not a social experience at all.
    My guess is that if Blizzard removed LFR at this point, they would need to add about 2 new heroic 5 mans each raid wing in order to retain the subscriptions of the non-raiders. Blizzard has stated that making a new 5 mans is almost as much work as making a new raid tier. That would be a huge increase in the amount of development time for each patch.

    Now if you are thinking, "Who needs those players anyway," according to Blizzard's old numbers where ~60% participate in LFR but only 10% participate in normal/heroic raiding; that would be a pretty big blow to their sub numbers...especially since Blizzard believes that these players would not move on to raiding at a higher difficulty level but would rather quit.

    There have been some decent arguments made that Flex could replace LFR. However, I don't think a decent argument can be made that Flex raiding could replace adding new heroic 5 mans.

    In my ideal world, Blizzard would switch to making the two new 5 mans each raid wing and LFR would be released as a raid-tier-behind thing that awarded the old normal-mode raid gear. When you think about the implications of this, it would result in a lot more content at any given moment for both raiders and non-raiders. Regardless, I understand why Blizzard is doing things the way they are doing them.

  2. #42
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    When Blizzard employs you and shares the REAL numbers with you, then you'll know what causes what. Until then, stop throwing your opinions around like it's fact. You're fueling the problem, not solving it.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    This is exactly the issue right here that people have with a lot of raiders in WoW.

    This narcissistic attitude and need to be special snowflakes, I have no idea if it arises from real life where they don't get noticed or see themselves get overlooked as the "jocks" (to coin the American phrase) get all the attention and girls, i'm sure some psychologist could tell you.

    People who can only be happy in the game if they are able to look down on everybody else. People who are only happy if everybody is sat around admiring them.

    The other 6 million players want to be able to experience the core focus of the game without the ability to dedicate so much time to the game? TOUGH SHIT, MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. ENJOY YOUR 5 MANS SCRUBS.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Indeed it's a ridiculous standpoint that isn't valid in the vast majority of cases.

    Most people who don't raid don't want to just because they want all the epics for free, they want raiding because it's Blizzard's core focus of development time and endgame content and they want to experience it

    - - - Updated - - -



    I can dedicate 6-7 hours to raiding a week.
    I can't dedicate the same 6-7 hours to raiding a week...

    That is the reason LFR exists.
    Than people should put in some effort instead being handed everything. There is nothing accomplishing about being handed everything, it makes you feel worse. Its utter sad that people litterally try to defend being handed everything without any effort., If you don't put in the time & effort you don't deserve it.

  4. #44
    Please for the love of Thrall stop throwing around the word elitist.

    An elitist is a person who has unrealistic expectations of players an treats them badly for not meeting such standards.

    If a raider in 570 ilvl went into LFR and started insulting players or not beating his dps, THAT is elitist. 496 is not going to break 200k dps, and the only 570+ I have seen firsthand was doing more than 300k.
    If a player says that somebody is performing sub par for their gear, and failing at mechanics, that IS NOT elitist. That is having basic expectations of other players in group content to contribute. A person in 496 should be doing 70k. Expecting them to do so is not elitist.

    Please keep this in mind for further bickering. Also stat budget is a bit different on epics vs superior pieces, please remember that as well.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Please for the love of Thrall stop throwing around the word elitist.

    An elitist is a person who has unrealistic expectations of players an treats them badly for not meeting such standards.

    If a raider in 570 ilvl went into LFR and started insulting players or not beating his dps, THAT is elitist. 496 is not going to break 200k dps, and the only 570+ I have seen firsthand was doing more than 300k.
    If a player says that somebody is performing sub par for their gear, and failing at mechanics, that IS NOT elitist. That is having basic expectations of other players in group content to contribute. A person in 496 should be doing 70k. Expecting them to do so is not elitist.

    Please keep this in mind for further bickering. Also stat budget is a bit different on epics vs superior pieces, please remember that as well.
    People confuse Good players for Elitists like do with Bad players for Casuals.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Can I assume you are a heroic raider who doesn't like LFR because it's to easy and you want it removed?

    So, by your own logic, you are going into LFR with your high level raiding gear making all the LFR boss mechanics trivial for everyone else...essentially ruining the difficulty level for all the rest of us.

    Thanks heroic raiders...thanks for ruining LFR for all of us 8(
    Haha
    i must admit i dont agree, if anything its the ppl that show up for lfr queued as a healer and then go dps or the nubbies that dont gem or enchant their gear or just dont try period that has ruined lfr for every1. it doesnt matter if their hps or dps sucks, as long as they geneuinely try their best, then im fine, worst case scenario is that the boss will die later and a dead boss is what we want.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    See there is the problem, you assume that because a person uses LFR that they do nothing for their rewards, truth of the matter is that the majority in there do try and they have to try harder than they normally would because they have to drag a few losers with them across the finish line. You are that guy who gets cut off in traffic and flipped off so you tell everyone that no one knows how to drive and everyone is psychotic but you passed 300 cars and you don't remember them because they were following the rules of the road. But oh no, there's nothing but bads in LFR.

    I also point out that several people here who profess to being progression heroic raiders will openly admit that when they go into LFR they go afk because until it gets hard it is not worth their time. The problems in LFR are caused by just as many elite players as casuals. If they stopped shitting in the pool and everyone rolled LFR then Blizzard would up the difficulty.
    Not sure how you got that from my post but okay?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    We live in a world where the unwashed masses have taken over.

    Achievers are looked down on because they make unachievers feel bad.

    High schools have been doing away with honor rolls or valedictorians, little league's give out trophies to all the teams or don't keep score, etc.

    Maybe the problem isn't with the elitest achievers, maybe the problem is some people are so insecure that others accomplishing things makes them feel bad about themselves.

    "He can't have a trophy if I can't have one too!"

    that's the mentality that's ruined WoW and our society.

    Things should be given out on merit and accomplishment.

    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?
    This X100000000000

    This thread and what you said remind me of another thread I saw on MMOC yesterday where a mother of 3 who runs a non profit fitness organization got criticized for "fat flaming" because of her picture of herself with her abs showing and her three children in the pic(one is 8 months) with a caption "What's your excuse".

    The world would rather give credit to everyone no matter how horrible you are at success. Just like I've said in soooooo many of these threads we are turning into the world of the movie Idiocracy and WoW with LFR is a prime example of that.

    WoW has epitomized this because if they don't hand something to the lazy players on a silver platter(General Nazgrim on LFR is a prime example) then they will lose customers and money and that's "bad business" when in reality it's bad business to lose your moral high ground in the gaming industry.

    You get criticized if you're good at wow being called a no lifer when most heroic raiders spend less time in game than most of the supposed casuals when in truth the people who call themselves casuals are typically just bad and truly do play an excessive amount of time in the game.

    I honestly detest this world where we need to bow down to the fat, the lazy, and the stupid because they are the majority. Burn yourself with coffee from Dunkin Donuts? Sue them and make all coffee have heat warnings on it now. Attempt to sue McDonalds for making your child fat? They settle out of court even though your claim is stupid because you defame their image. It's not just America though. America was just ahead(behind?) of the curve on this awful trend. Honestly all hail the fat, dumb, and lazy or they will find a way to get one over on you just through sheer numbers.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    People confuse Good players for Elitists like do with Bad players for Casuals.
    Don't get me started. When I see somebody say LFR needs to be easier because it is for casuals I am ready to rip their head off. Casual is about time and commitment. Not skill. Skilled players can smash through a raid in no time, bad players need nerfs.

    Blizzard doesn't cater to casuals any more now than before. WoW always wasn't much of a mega grind timesink. What they are doing is making the game accessible for bad players. Which really cannot be argued for once people stop associating bad with casual.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Please for the love of Thrall stop throwing around the word elitist.

    An elitist is a person who has unrealistic expectations of players an treats them badly for not meeting such standards.

    If a raider in 570 ilvl went into LFR and started insulting players or not beating his dps, THAT is elitist. 496 is not going to break 200k dps, and the only 570+ I have seen firsthand was doing more than 300k.
    If a player says that somebody is performing sub par for their gear, and failing at mechanics, that IS NOT elitist. That is having basic expectations of other players in group content to contribute. A person in 496 should be doing 70k. Expecting them to do so is not elitist.

    Please keep this in mind for further bickering. Also stat budget is a bit different on epics vs superior pieces, please remember that as well.
    Very much agreed.

    People seem to misunderstand what elitism really is. Having expectations of people isn't elitist in of itself - its based upon how reasonable your expectations are, your own performance in comparison and how well you react when those expectations are not met.

    The numbers themselves are often irrelivent, LFR is tuned to be very forgiving. What really disappoints me with people is when they ignore mechanics to the point of getting other players killed and causing wipes, and then not learning from that mistake or even being apologetic about it. I might make a somewhat disbelieving comment about exceptionally low dps, but only ever to friends and never towards those players in an accusational manner.

    If anything I tend to be more harsh towards those near the top of the meters, since I often inspect them out of interest. If I'm beating someone in superior gear, I struggle not to judge them. I consider someone in heroic gear pulling less dps then me in normal gear to be worse then someone in pvp and timeless epics doing bottom of the barrel dps.
    Last edited by Durandro; 2013-10-26 at 02:13 AM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    My guess is that if Blizzard removed LFR at this point, they would need to add about 2 new heroic 5 mans each raid wing in order to retain the subscriptions of the non-raiders. Blizzard has stated that making a new 5 mans is almost as much work as making a new raid tier. That would be a huge increase in the amount of development time for each patch.

    Now if you are thinking, "Who needs those players anyway," according to Blizzard's old numbers where ~60% participate in LFR but only 10% participate in normal/heroic raiding; that would be a pretty big blow to their sub numbers...especially since Blizzard believes that these players would not move on to raiding at a higher difficulty level but would rather quit.

    There have been some decent arguments made that Flex could replace LFR. However, I don't think a decent argument can be made that Flex raiding could replace adding new heroic 5 mans.

    In my ideal world, Blizzard would switch to making the two new 5 mans each raid wing and LFR would be released as a raid-tier-behind thing that awarded the old normal-mode raid gear. When you think about the implications of this, it would result in a lot more content at any given moment for both raiders and non-raiders. Regardless, I understand why Blizzard is doing things the way they are doing them.
    I'm sorry, but they wouldn't quit. What did those people do in BC and WotLK? I'm pretty damn sure the unskilled masses entered and completed Kara when most of the decent players were in BT. People were playing just fine before LFR. Those who can't cut it in normal modes would continue to do what they did in the past just fine. Inb4 people claim normal is too hard yet I ran 60% of MSV in mostly heroic blues with a spattering of 476's in a pug on about the third week of the xpac.

  12. #52
    Immortal Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Don't get me started. When I see somebody say LFR needs to be easier because it is for casuals I am ready to rip their head off. Casual is about time and commitment. Not skill. Skilled players can smash through a raid in no time, bad players need nerfs.

    Blizzard doesn't cater to casuals any more now than before. WoW always wasn't much of a mega grind timesink. What they are doing is making the game accessible for bad players. Which really cannot be argued for once people stop associating bad with casual.
    I agree with you 100% on the last part

  13. #53
    If they fixed the broken "player cannot be kicked" people might have to be a bit more responsible in LFR. Its basically impossible to get kicked from LFR nowadays, change that and it will get better. Anything with 0 accountability and requiring teamwork is a bad mix

    Id also like to point out that the old system of new 5 man heroics every major patch was a much better system. It was easy enough for bad players and rewarded good enough gear to do the previous tier with.
    Last edited by satimy; 2013-10-26 at 02:21 AM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    If they fixed the broken "player cannot be kicked" people might have to be a bit more responsible in LFR. Its basically impossible to get kicked from LFR nowadays, change that and it will get better. Anything with 0 accountability and requiring teamwork is a bad mix.
    Oh no if you try to help the group in anyway or try help lead them in the right direction & you have decent to good gear, You get vote kicked.
    Even if your the appointed Group Leader.

  15. #55
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    Aristotle

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    We live in a world where the unwashed masses have taken over.

    Achievers are looked down on because they make unachievers feel bad.

    High schools have been doing away with honor rolls or valedictorians, little league's give out trophies to all the teams or don't keep score, etc.

    Maybe the problem isn't with the elitest achievers, maybe the problem is some people are so insecure that others accomplishing things makes them feel bad about themselves.

    "He can't have a trophy if I can't have one too!"

    that's the mentality that's ruined WoW and our society.

    Things should be given out on merit and accomplishment.

    "Elitests" want people to earn things, what's wrong with that?

    ^ Aristotle Agrees with you. Or agreed. Depends on how you look at it I suppose. Lol

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    I'm sorry, but they wouldn't quit. What did those people do in BC and WotLK? I'm pretty damn sure the unskilled masses entered and completed Kara when most of the decent players were in BT. People were playing just fine before LFR. Those who can't cut it in normal modes would continue to do what they did in the past just fine. Inb4 people claim normal is too hard yet I ran 60% of MSV in mostly heroic blues with a spattering of 476's in a pug on about the third week of the xpac.
    Oh I disagree. Many of the players are late Cata and Mist players, or remaining wrath babies.

    Look at what happened in Cataclysm when they tried to make dungeons HARD. Not remove, just have them not be a faceroll. Many many wrath players left. Same thing would happen again and would cause another expansion to go from great to horrid in just a couple patches. All these players used to faceroll heroics, easy VP gear and tier thrown at them would cry, blizzard would scramble to save them and we would have a repeat of 4.3

    What blizzard needs to do is make LFR bottom of the barrel. Sure, run the raids get some gear, but literally all gear is better and at least some is easier to aquire.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Than people should put in some effort instead being handed everything. There is nothing accomplishing about being handed everything, it makes you feel worse. Its utter sad that people litterally try to defend being handed everything without any effort., If you don't put in the time & effort you don't deserve it.
    It's not even that they don't deserve it, it's that they won't feel like they've accomplished anything. The items will likely have less personal value if it lands on your lap. You take it as given. That Timeless Isle gear is hardly different from the blue quest reward at level 66. Same goes for LFR tier gear.

    So essentially you've just done another dungeon but in all probability you feel like your effort was unecessary for victory.

    But the fact is, it's better than nothing. It's still garbage since it's not what raiding should be about but it's something so they'll defend it to the death.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Oh no if you try to help the group in anyway or try help lead them in the right direction & you have decent to good gear, You get vote kicked.
    Even if your the appointed Group Leader.
    For forget that it is "toxic", "elitist" and any other tumblr-tier buzzwords you can throw in.

    Isn't it toxic of me to say kick the guy auto attacking? What if they have lag or don't know any better?
    I'm such an elitist for suggesting somebody read the fight before they queue. Reading is a struggle or some people and they learn by doing so any prior experience is totally useless.
    Aren't I just mean for saying kick the guy who keeps failing mechanics? I shoul whisper him and fully explain the fight to him after helping him correct his dps

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Oh I disagree. Many of the players are late Cata and Mist players, or remaining wrath babies.

    Look at what happened in Cataclysm when they tried to make dungeons HARD. Not remove, just have them not be a faceroll. Many many wrath players left. Same thing would happen again and would cause another expansion to go from great to horrid in just a couple patches. All these players used to faceroll heroics, easy VP gear and tier thrown at them would cry, blizzard would scramble to save them and we would have a repeat of 4.3

    What blizzard needs to do is make LFR bottom of the barrel. Sure, run the raids get some gear, but literally all gear is better and at least some is easier to aquire.
    People didn't quit from heroics. That's a myth 100%. Show me proof of it.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    It's not even that they don't deserve it, it's that they won't feel like they've accomplished anything. The items will likely have less personal value if it lands on your lap. You take it as given. That Timeless Isle gear is hardly different from the blue quest reward at level 66. Same goes for LFR tier gear.

    So essentially you've just done another dungeon but in all probability you feel like your effort was unecessary for victory.

    But the fact is, it's better than nothing. It's still garbage since it's not what raiding should be about but it's something so they'll defend it to the death.
    Part of that is that they assume there would be no other changes with LFR gone. They assume the cloak would still be considered a standard, that PuG ilvl requirements would still be so high, that there wouldn't be other gearing paths.

    If blizzard said they would release 3 heroics, 1 BG, and one new quest daily hub each patch, but no more LFR, the number of people defending it would flip.

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