Who would win in an unrestrained, completely savage war, China or America?

[Deleted]

I think you've seen Red Dawn too many times.

I don't think it's a matter of explosives as much as it is about avoiding the tanks in the first place. China wouldn't be able to produce enough tanks to keep rural America in check. All they'd have to do is ambush patrols without tanks and plant IED's everywhere.

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China doesn't have the air power or sea capability to get out of China. Nor sufficient enough defenses to stop us from literally cutting them off.

I am using your OP as it is just us two with no other intervention. China does not stand a chance. All that land power needs to get to us to be effective.

If there's intervention China will get it's ass kicked even harder.

[anveena]

China, because they're going to mass troops in Mexico to invade with

[Agent Mercury]

I don't think it's a matter of explosives as much as it is about avoiding the tanks in the first place. China wouldn't be able to produce enough tanks to keep rural America in check. All they'd have to do is ambush patrols without tanks and plant IED's everywhere.

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If there's intervention China will get it's ass kicked even harder.

I didn't say it would favor them but it would need a much longer post as we would accrue a lot more losses. That factors in defending allies and watching multiple fronts. More damage all around. China alone would be almost useless. Landlocked with a very powerful navy able to hit them from sea.

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China, because they're going to mass troops in Mexico to invade with

And how will they get there? They don't have the naval force to get off the continent. Landlocked.

[Kalis]

I don't think it's a matter of explosives as much as it is about avoiding the tanks in the first place. China wouldn't be able to produce enough tanks to keep rural America in check. All they'd have to do is ambush patrols without tanks and plant IED's everywhere.

Once they've occupied/neutralised your main areas of occupation and production, then you've lost, and if they have air cover and mechanised ground forces, it would only be a short time before they had those objectives.

All you'd be doing is fighting a guerilla insurgency against an effectively unlimited opposition. I'm sure a few would love to fulfil their Rambo fantasy, but the war would be over for all intents and purposes.

[Deleted]

Once they've occupied/neutralised your main areas of occupation and production, then you've lost, and if they have air cover and mechanised ground forces, it would only be a short time before they had those objectives.

All you'd be doing is fighting a guerilla insurgency against an effectively unlimited opposition. I'm sure a few would love to fulfil their Rambo fantasy, but the war would be over for all intents and purposes.

At that point yes. I thought we were talking about if China was able to somehow reach the U.S. It doesn't mean they've defeated our military or won the war if they were able to do so.

[Agent Mercury]

At that point yes. I thought we were talking about if China was able to somehow reach the U.S. It doesn't mean they've defeated our military or won the war if they were able to do so.

If China makes it to the U.S. we have definitely lost as the Air Force and Navy somehow were taken out. Otherwise they would not have made it.

[Deleted]

How do you figure? Personally, if we were to bet on a battle between a brigade of Chinese conscripts and a neighborhood of midwesterners, I'd go all-in on the Americans every time.

But no, you're right. No insurgency has ever repelled a foreign invasion. That's why Finland became part of Russia, if I'm not mistaken.

I don't know why you Americans keep insisting on that fantasy, that your armed population is the ultimate safeguard against an invasion.

Btw, i'd say that in the Winter War, the Finnish army, which was much better trained and much better directed, who knew the land and knew how to take advantage of it, had had something to do with the Soviet defeat. The insurgency in the occupied cities helped to make the logistic mess the Soviets had gotten into even worse. But if there had been no army of Finland, it would have been of little consequence.

Never in human history has civilian armed resistance been able to defeat an invading standing army. And i know "never" is a strong word, but that's how things are. Insurgencies only work when they do the guerrilla part of the warfare and they have a standing army on their side.

ETA.- If the chinese get to the point of movilizing conscripts (which are no less trained than american conscripts, i.e. a lot more than your midwestern civilian), you realize that China has a population base of 1.5 billion people? What exactly do you know about chinese military training to hold them in such contempt?

[Kalis]

If China makes it to the U.S. we have definitely lost as the Air Force and Navy somehow were taken out. Otherwise they would not have made it.

Pretty much, there is no way across the Pacific if the US has their air force and navy in play.

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I don't know why you Americans keep insisting on that fantasy, that your armed population is the ultimate safeguard against an invasion.

Btw, i'd say that in the Winter War, the Finnish army, which was much better trained and much better directed, who knew the land and knew how to take advantage of it, had had something to do with the Soviet defeat. The insurgency in the occupied cities helped to make the logistic mess the Soviets had gotten into even worse. But if there had been no army of Finland, it would have been of little consequence.

Never in human history has civilian armed resistance been able to defeat an invading standing army. And i know "never" is a strong word, but that's how things are. Insurgencies only work when they do the guerrilla part of the warfare and they have a standing army on their side.

The Russians played their part by purging all their competent commanders shortly beforehand.

[Agent Mercury]

I don't know why you Americans keep insisting on that fantasy, that your armed population is the ultimate safeguard against an invasion.

Btw, i'd say that in the Winter War, the Finnish army, which was much better trained and much better directed, who knew the land and knew how to take advantage of it, had had something to do with the Soviet defeat. The insurgency in the occupied cities helped to make the logistic mess the Soviets had gotten into even worse. But if there had been no army of Finland, it would have been of little consequence.

Never in human history has civilian armed resistance been able to defeat an invading standing army. And i know "never" is a strong word, but that's how things are. Insurgencies only work when they do the guerrilla part of the warfare and they have a standing army on their side.

Generalizations are fun. Illogical people aren't just in America. Those who believe a militia is still effective obviously aren't thinking logically as war isn't as simple as it used to be. Some members being proficient with weapons or having some training won't cut it. This isn't the revolutionary war or the battle for middle earth.

Oh and I am American, btw. I wonder why I don't agree with Kalyyn...

[Fullmetal89]

The U.S. would win hands down, China doesn't have the resources, both financially and militarily to run a campaign against the U.S. It would be a horrible war no doubt with no winner but China wouldn't really stand much of a chance. Now, China and Russia on the other hand that would be a different story.

[Austilias]

Disregarding a situation in which things go nuclear (in which case, everyone loses), it'd be America. Numbers ultimately count for little when we bear in mind that North Korea does technically have the world's largest standing military with respect to land forces. Americans have superior technology and weaponry, which is where it really counts.

[Deleted]

I don't know why you Americans keep insisting on that fantasy, that your armed population is the ultimate safeguard against an invasion.

Btw, i'd say that in the Winter War, the Finnish army, which was much better trained and much better directed, who knew the land and knew how to take advantage of it, had had something to do with the Soviet defeat. The insurgency in the occupied cities helped to make the logistic mess the Soviets had gotten into even worse. But if there had been no army of Finland, it would have been of little consequence.

Never in human history has civilian armed resistance been able to defeat an invading standing army. And i know "never" is a strong word, but that's how things are. Insurgencies only work when they do the guerrilla part of the warfare and they have a standing army on their side.

ETA.- If the chinese get to the point of movilizing conscripts (which are no less trained than american conscripts, i.e. a lot more than your midwestern civilian), you realize that China has a population base of 1.5 billion people? What exactly do you know about chinese military training to hold them in such contempt?

Exactly. The Finish military knew the land and pretty much destroyed the Russian Military even though they were outnumbered and outmatched. If our Navy and Airforce were somehow defeated, our Army COULD still be standing. If this is the case, America would be able to fend off any invasion force.

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Pretty much, there is no way across the Pacific if the US has their air force and navy in play.

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The Russians played their part by purging all their competent commanders shortly beforehand.

We don't even know if China has any competent Commanders to send up against us. Once again, the U.S. has a pretty good chance of fending off an invasion if our Army is still intact.

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Generalizations are fun. Illogical people aren't just in America. Those who believe a militia is still effective obviously aren't thinking logically as war isn't as simple as it used to be. Some members being proficient with weapons or having some training won't cut it. This isn't the revolutionary war or the battle for middle earth.

Oh and I am American, btw. I wonder why I don't agree with Kalyyn...

Sure but what if they're up against a massive militia and the our ground forces. It's a lot different then.

[endersblade]

Let's take a look:

China:
Has a massive population, and as such, their military outnumbers us when counting bodies
While China's borders make it a large country, 99% of the population lives along the coast
Their Navy is fairly outdated

USA:
Massive defense budget, and as such, our gear is mostly up-to-date
Has two coasts, and population is spread along most of the country instead of bundled up
We have far, far more anti-nuke tech guarding our country than most people realize

If, somehow, China managed to get its troops onto US soil, there really isn't a whole lot we could do without major sacrifice and loss. With sheer swarm tactics, they would take us out in a matter of weeks, and that's saying we threw everything we had at them. Barring that, China would never get that many people onto our soil, especially by sea; our Navy is literally everywhere at all times. And since their Navy tech is outdated (they actually buy a lot of decommissioned WWII era ships from us and actually USE them...) they wouldn't stand much of a chance. They might, MIGHT be able to take Hawaii, but I doubt it. Their air force is in pretty much the same state, although they seem to be more focused on updating ground and air tech than Navy. But again, that requires them crossing an ocean to get to us...their stealth tech (going purely by what's public knowledge, granted) is nothing compared to ours, so fat chance of getting any sort of bomber/troop transport over here.

Now, bringing nukes into the situation, they again wouldn't stand a chance. If both countries lobbed every single nuke at each other all at once (which isn't really possible, there are more missiles than launchers), we would shoot down many of them, if not all of them. And since most of China's population, e.g. economy, is all along that one coast, we only have to get a few nukes through to do some serious damage to them. The damage to the US would most likely be pretty bad if some managed to detonate on target, but nowhere near as bad as if they hit China. If they took out our entire west coast, the rest of the country would still function.

And, of course, the fact that the US is wholly paranoid. We'd know about anything before it even started, and do everything we could both politically and militarily to stop it. I HIGHLY DOUBT either country would resort to nukes, as it is more or less general knowledge of what the sort of fallout would entail for the rest of the world. This hypothetical scenario is also disregarding the other countries that would step in to help either side out.

[Anodur]

The Global War on Terror has only taken 10+ years because we have to follow rules.

It would have been known as the 12-Day War if it was completely savage, anything-goes combat. And it'd only take that long because the enemy lives in caves instead of well-marked military barracks.

With China, I'd give it <48 hours (hacking takes maybe 12 hours, + an extra 6 hours for some well-placed nukes, and an extra 30 hours to pad the timetable).

[Frenegade42]

In total unrestricted, conventional war? (no nukes).

Depends.

It would have be a fight-for-survival scenario like the 2nd world war (and this scenario is unlikely to play out without going nuclear). I don't think todays America has the chops for a long brutal campaign overseas. And I don't mean skirmishes like Iraq and Afghanistan (no offense to todays soldiers) but this America would fold after the first major amphibious assault or major push that saw casualties in the tens of thousands in a single action. The politics would tear the country apart and they would crumble and withdraw. Their greatest generation that ever lived is long dead.

I think with air and naval superiority the US could wreck China as a functioning world power but lacks the political will and ruthlessness required to subjugate nations and truly end a war like they did Japan and Germany.

[Anodur]

In total unrestricted, conventional war? (no nukes).

Depends.

It would have be a fight-for-survival scenario like the 2nd world war (and this scenario is unlikely to play out without going nuclear). I don't think todays America has the chops for a long brutal campaign overseas. And I don't mean skirmishes like Iraq and Afghanistan (no offense to todays soldiers) but this America would fold after the first major amphibious assault or major push that saw casualties in the tens of thousands in a single action. The politics would tear the country apart and they would crumble and withdraw. Their greatest generation that ever lived is long dead.

I think with air and naval superiority the US could wreck China as a functioning world power but lacks the political will and ruthlessness required to subjugate nations and truly end a war like they did Japan and Germany.

The greatest generation is long dead? Last I checked, Miley Cyrus, Kanye West, Rebecca Black, and One Direction are all still kickin'.

If Congress stays out of the way, we could win any war hands-down.

[Aitch]

Yea! Let's bash some nations!.. Oh wait..

[Olianda]

I think you've seen Red Dawn too many times.

Implying that's possible...

I feel like neither side would be able to get enough troops over to take and hold anything. When it comes to Military v. Military, China has numbers and production, the U.S. has technology and the potential for a draft. Total war is a terrifying thing, though incredibly rare.

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The greatest generation is long dead? Last I checked, Miley Cyrus, Kanye West, Rebecca Black, and One Direction are all still kickin'

Coincidentally, I believe I'll be sigging this, even if it's sarcasm.

[Dazzy]

China would win. They can send wave after wave of bodies at it.

America would have it's current military, then maybe 300-400 thousand more that volunteered or got drafted, and 150 million pussies, oh I'm sorry, "conscientious objectors".

[AbsolutePitch]

Canada waits till they have worn each other down, then invades both in the name of the Queen, and changes both flags to a picture of some indigenous leaf.

All hail the queen!