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  1. #1

    When did raiding become more of a job than fun?

    Is having a second job fun to you all? Or even a third or a 4th job? Not that I'm sure you can even maintain a raid spot with that many jobs...


    I remember in late BC, even all throughout icc and early cataclysm, raiding was fun. You weren't required to play 2-3 different specs based on what your guild needed. You were required to play the role & spec you signed up for, it was your choice to play something different and if it was a different role you communicated with different members of that role & leadership to see if it fit. If it didn't fit, you let them know you didn't want to be apart of that situation anymore because you didn't want to play that role anymore.

    Some frowned on you, some didn't care, some were happy you were taking your own venture (not likely, but happens...). Now if you play the game the way you want, and not how someone else wants, you were destroyed verbally and most likely ended up on a few peoples ignore lists and quite possibly witch hunted.


    Is this what this game is coming to? Is this what you want your 15$ a month to go to, is another job? Flex was supposed to introduce a pug atmosphere. Not another reason for ilvl to become a giant wall or gearscore to return. Even in LFR if someone isn't playing arcane over fire I've seen people kicked over it.


    I don't really tend to go these negative routes, but its becoming more & more apparent blizzard is trying they're best to introduce every aspect to people, but requiring 540 ilvl for flex when it drops 540 ilvl is extremely unreasonable. You might as well run a guild run at that point.

    And no this isn't a post about how I didn't get accepted into a flex. This is a post mostly about the fact the community of WoW is becoming yet again centered around ilvl just like it was centered around gearscore in wrath. Get rid of it. Get rid of the number. Let skill become the only factor. Its working out well in guild wars 2, it works out fairly well in rift, and I'm sure it works out fine in other MMO's.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Angarin View Post
    I remember in late BC, even all throughout icc and early cataclysm, raiding was fun. You weren't required to play 2-3 different specs based on what your guild needed. You were required to play the role & spec you signed up for, it was your choice to play something different and if it was a different role you communicated with different members of that role & leadership to see if it fit. If it didn't fit, you let them know you didn't want to be apart of that situation anymore because you didn't want to play that role anymore.
    I don't agree with this at all. In the current state of the game, you truly can play whatever you'd like.

    As for it being a "second job", it doesn't for me, but only because I don't raid a ton of hours. Only 5-6 a week. It doesn't burn me out and overall, it's a good balance for me, personally. The day it feels like a chore is the day you're either raiding to much or playing too much. IMO, anyways. It's a game and I treat it as such.
    Last edited by KClovesGaming; 2013-10-26 at 01:24 AM.

  3. #3
    I think for alot of people the game stopped being fun for them a long time ago and all they have left now is "progress" and "success". Anyone who doesn't fit into their scheme gets attacked.

    It's actually been this way for a long time, but I do agree it's become alot more widespread now. Some people just seem to prefer the joyless and somewhat hollow experiences.

    Some of these attitudes are being adopted by some more casual players nowadays, trying to emulate the "skillful" ones.
    Last edited by Netherspark; 2013-10-26 at 01:26 AM.

  4. #4
    You talk about flex like it's made for pugs. It's made for very relaxed raiders. The pugs just require high ilvl because they can't be arsed to spend hours on trivial stuff (for them).
    If you want to experience that you go to a guild that use flex to progress through. yeah that exist. Not to find the one pug group in the world that think it's great to spend a day to progress through first wing of flex.

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  5. #5
    I understand what you are trying to get at but as far as I know, didn't the top guilds raid something like 20 hours a day back in Sunwell? That is way more than any guild is doing right now (at least on the 25man side).


    People keep getting better at the game and want to push each other as much as possible - The reason why these requirements didn't necessarily exist back then is not because raiding is any more serious now and anything like a job but people have found any new way of optimizing progress.


    Also, when it comes to flex or anything like that and feeling that you "just have to do it" is something that didn't exist back than because people were pleased with just running dungeons and back in BC for example, getting into heroics was a big mission by itself. What happened when they brought back something remotely similar likes this (Ordos?) people starts crying.

    So everything is here, readily available if you want to do it.

    And why shouldn't people have a ilevel requirement for flex? I know people have started flex runs without a level requirement, its just that if you increase the ilevel requirement, it's more likely that you will succeed. Gear is not everything, sure but the same goes for skill. Can a guild with ilevel 540 kill heroic Garrosh? Nope.
    Last edited by Haxlax; 2013-10-26 at 01:31 AM.

  6. #6
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angarin View Post
    I don't really tend to go these negative routes, but its becoming more & more apparent blizzard is trying they're best to introduce every aspect to people, but requiring 540 ilvl for flex when it drops 540 ilvl is extremely unreasonable. You might as well run a guild run at that point.
    Some people want to do more than LFR and don't have the time or a regular enough schedule so it's Flex for them. I don't know if you meant to imply this but the sentence I quoted could be taken that Blizzard is requiring 540 ilvl for Flex. Blizzard isn't requiring anything at all that I'm aware of except a proper body count to begin.

    As to when raiding became a second job? For me it was Wrath and the separate lockouts for 10's and 25's. It was four nights a week and you had better not miss or your place was in jeopardy. It didn't take too long before I no longer cared if my place was in jeopardy and I've been raiding casually ever since. Some thrive on that but I think it did a great deal of harm to the raiding population as a whole since many people burned out and never got that interested again. If T11 didn't bring them back--the best tier in Cataclysm I think--then they were gone.

    The main thing for me though is scheduling. Once I broke that idea that I had to be on a schedule to play WoW it got much easier and much less like work. I mean really: show up on time and ready to work, put in your hours and if we have a good night you might pick up a paycheck at the end in the form of improved gear. That's a job.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-10-26 at 01:30 AM.
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  7. #7
    Brewmaster Gharld's Avatar
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    Yea I mean it not like being in a progressive guild in the past required you to grind out potion mats, flask mats, resist gear, other consumables, and be in the spec found most useful from your class and what was needed for the run. None of those things ever happened in Vanilla, BC, or any expansion.

    But seriously, your post sounds just....extreamly situational. I mean clearly in BC/Wrath/Early Cat you were in a guild / group of people where you could be relaxed and such, because nothing has changed that would make the same people suddenly go "oh no you arent allowed to be this spec" especially considering different specs are waaay more balanced then in previous expacs.

    As for LFR and Flex, quite frankly thats the cesspool spirit of the internet community that exists in any damm game you go into if you look in the right places. Personally, I have yet to see somebody get the boot in LFR because of something silly like a spec, but not being gemmed? Oh yea, and they should be for not atleast putting a gem in a socket, a bare minimum effort. Low DPS/HPS/Squish-Tank? LFR is still an effort despite how watered down they are, and if somebody isnt putting in proper effort to help the group, then why should they deserve the same potential reward to those who do try? They plain and simply dont.
    Last edited by Gharld; 2013-10-26 at 01:33 AM.
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  8. #8
    Are you implying that a job is bad?

  9. #9
    Whenever raiding starts feeling like a job for me, I quit. This has happened once back in TBC, and once during Dragon Soul. I realised I wasn't enjoying the raids anymore, that I was basically signing up because raids might be canceled otherwise, and was noticably more pessimistic in anything involving WoW. I told my guildleader as much, signed up for a few more raids until a replacement healer was found, and then stopped playing.

    Eventually I got motivation back and started playing again. Currently I am enjoying the raids and am looking forward to each raid, be they progression, farm raids, or our weekly "clear flex while drunk with alts and friends/family" raids.

    I strongly suggest that if you feel raiding is becoming a chore, you quit for awhile. (or completely)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Terridon View Post
    You talk about flex like it's made for pugs. It's made for very relaxed raiders. The pugs just require high ilvl because they can't be arsed to spend hours on trivial stuff (for them).
    That reason, though is... bullshit.

    I run in an openraid flex. Min ilevel is 515, many of us have way more than that, some closer to 520. Last night we cleared from Galakras through Thok in 2:45. We wiped once on Naz (1%... cry) and once on Spoils. One shot everything else. You DO NOT need 540 gear min to do well in flex. A few nights ago 18 of us from that group did the first wing in 45 mins. So, in a bit under 4 hours we've cleared the first 3 wings of SoO Flex. Could a bunch of 550 heroic raiders clear it faster? Yes, a bit, but that supports OP's point - after all, the difference between 3 hours and 4 isn't really meaningful. Or rather, if it is, you're making Flex a job, not a few hours of gaming fun.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-10-26 at 01:36 AM.

  11. #11
    I don't see the problem with raiding feeling like a job or a hobby as long as the reward justifies the trouble. To be quite frank, because I've grown up with balancing life and raiding I get shivers just from thinking about a scenario where I'm forced to come home every day and watch some dumbass shows on TV for five hours before getting to bed.
    Last edited by Strafir; 2013-10-26 at 01:37 AM.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    It is entirely subjective. Raiding is now less of a job than it has ever been...
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  13. #13
    If you don't like it and find it a chore then don't do it.

    It's not hard to figure out is it?

  14. #14
    Raiding's more job than fun when you're burning (or burned) out.

    When you're rejected from raids due to your spec choice, it's probably due to them being an asshole; fret not, you're likely not missing out on a great time (you wouldn't enjoy yourself playing their preferred spec anyway, and who knows how well they even treat their participants).

    If you can't find a fun or comfortable raiding home... no reason not to simply move on.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    I think for alot of people the game stopped being fun for them a long time ago and all they have left now is "progress" and "success". Anyone who doesn't fit into their scheme gets attacked.

    It's actually been this way for a long time, but I do agree it's become alot more widespread now. Some people just seem to prefer the joyless and somewhat hollow experiences.

    Some of these attitudes are being adopted by some more casual players nowadays, trying to emulate the "skillful" ones.
    If it wasn't for LFR, that would have been the single way to play the game and therefore its immediate downfall.

  16. #16
    For me it was just before the release of Ulduar actually.

    I had kept my guild together and raiding after the LK release and through Naxx. I kept down the guild drama as the various guild leaders took their own sweet damn time getting to level 80 (about 12 weeks to everyone else's 3 to 5 if that) and kept things together after the introduction of EP/GP from loot council - a move that was met with EXTREME resentment that cost us 4 good raiders.

    I had been putting together both 10 and 25 man groups, raiding at least twice a week and started burning out. When the guild leaders finally did come back and then decided to change raid times to a time even less convenient for me than what they were (from 6pm PST to 5pm PST, even though I was racing home every night finishing work at 5:30 at the time), well I was just tired. So said goodnight to the game for a few months, came back after a while, couldn't fit into a raid, asked a question, someone responded with "casual guilds are thataway" and then I did a /gquit and never looked back.

    Now days I subscribe fairly sporadically. I've really enjoyed MoP, got a new job and raided with some coworkers for a while in Cat, wasn't too impressed with their raids which always turned into the raid leader having to apologize for his brother who had low DPS, the raid leader's wife getting bitchy about the low DPS and the brother being incredibly short sighted about well, everything.

    MoP I've mostly just enjoyed getting dailies down and LFR. Really though the - truthfully small - hardcore community of raiders has effectively priced me out of even LFR raiding if I want to be competitive. Gems aren't too bad but at over 5kg for weapon enchants it was taking more time than I wanted to commit to the game and more specifically to the AH.

    So now I'm unsubed again, though I do sometimes think of hopping back in. Heck, I even think of creating a guild called "LFR Heroes" and just always cuing LFR or flex with them. In general though I hate recruiting and that I doubt I'll ever find that same community that I stumbled on in BC makes me keep my credit card info to myself.

    Really that's my greatest sadness about the shift from BC to LK and beyond. LFD killed my friend's list. All though BC I tanked and I tanked well. My friend's list was full of good healers and more importantly excellent CC - hunters, warlocks and even a few ret paladins who showed what they could do. That's what segued me into raiding, was wanting to bring those awesome people together because competency is beautiful.

    Now I cue up and have fun, but for the most part I feel like I'm playing a team simulator with a really dumb AI teammate.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Angarin View Post
    I remember in late BC
    Do you also remembering the farming grind for resistance gear? Gee that sure was fun!

    Said no-one ever.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
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    Raiding is less of a job now than it was in Vanilla, unless you're in a world first guild. So I'd say raiding became more of a job than fun when WoW was released, and has become less of a job throughout each expansion.

    The only exception is if you're in a world first progress guild and thus must play many alts and put in masses of playtime to achieve your goals.
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  19. #19
    Epic! klogaroth's Avatar
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    The requirements for raiding haven't really changed for a long time in terms of preparation. Checking tactics, getting consumables, gemming and enchanting etc have all remained the same for some time now.

    The number of playable specs in raiding is probably the largest it has ever been. I call utter BS on having more freedom of choice in what spec you play in late BC compared to now.

    There is zero point in hiding ilvl, because it's incredibly transparent. Everyone can find out where the gear you are wearing comes from. Even if there was no actual ilvl number attached to an item people would manufacture one in the style of gearscore. Even if this was somehow prevented by removing inspect and the armory (not gonna happen), people would simply move onto alternative methods of quickly filtering people like achievement requirements.

    When putting together a pug raid people will use any quick measure available to them to try and find appropriate group members.

    If it's not ilvl/gearscore or achievements then it'll be something else.

    The closest thing to measuring skill would be requiring people to link world of log parses, which mean your best DPS/HPS log would become the new gearscore, because you can be damned sure that the guy picking people up in trading isn't going to check any other number on the log. Nobody setting up a pug is going to check who hit Nazgrim during defensive stance, who ran half way across the room to soak imploding energy on Malkorok, who focused down and interrupted the farseers on Garrosh.
    No.
    You'll see raids filled with the guys that massively overheal with aoes, but don't cast a life saving flash heal, guys who never stop DPS when called and always AOE instead of killing priority targets. Because those guys will have bigger numbers.

    Then instead of encouraging gearing up and playing what they believe to be optimal specs the average pug leader will be actively encouraging DPS whoring and bad play in the name of topping the meters.


    Things like ilvl may seem to be bad, but the alternatives are usually worse.

    The real answer - find a more stable group to raid with. People who share your goals, playstyle and schedule.
    If you want to get more from raiding then pugging should be the road to finding the right people, not the end goal.

    It is everyone's duty to themselves and to the people they might be playing with, to go out and find the right group.


    Classic football(soccer) analogy - if you join a team you'll have more fun, more success and form a closer bond than if you just turn up to the park and hope you can join in with a bunch of strangers who you never see again. (protip - what is a good idea in a local football team is almost always also a good idea when it comes to raiding)
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2013-10-26 at 02:34 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Angarin View Post
    When did raiding become more of a job than fun?
    It hasn't ever. Looks like you don't like the way your guild does things so instead of looking at your issues with your guild, you are trying to place the blame where it doesn't belong.

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