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  1. #1

    Question Is Tyrael or the Guardian class the mirror of Paladin class?

    Just curious.. If much of the Guardian and Tyrael feel is within the Paladin class, soul of it..

    Or could there ever be room for a Tyrael\Guardian like class next to Paladin?

  2. #2
    The Guardian? If you're talking about the new Diablo 3 class, I recall they called it the Crusader, not Guardian. A quick search for "Guardian Diablo 3" reveals pretty much nothing (no characters or classes), but searching for "Crusader Diablo 3" comes up with all the details of the class.

    If you must compare Diablo 3 stuff with WoW (which I don't consider a good idea at all) then Tyrael and the Crusader are most analogous to the paladin, yes. Come to think of it, I'd like Tyrael's wings on my paladin instead of the current Avenging Wrath animation.

    Creating a new class along those lines for WoW wouldn't really work. The biggest issue is that the last armor "tier" slot to fill is mail, which means the class will either be agility-based or intellect-based since there's no way in the Twisting Nether that they'll add strength to mail gear. None of the holy warriors in WoW have ever been based on agility, although a few have been based on intellect. Thus, if the new class were to have a holy vibe then it would need to be entirely based on intellect to work. That would cause problems since we've already got quite a bit of caster holy stuff between priests and paladins, but I suppose Blizz could get more creative behind the premise if they really wanted to especially since WoW doesn't have any casters who are actually viable DPS via holy damage.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-10-26 at 10:54 PM.
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  3. #3
    Or you can know, they could put shit on holy plate besides paladins, because that's one of the most useless pieces of loot.

  4. #4
    No they're not.

  5. #5
    Not exactly though all Blizzard games plunder pretty readily from each other. Or at least Diablo 2 fed into WoW which fed into D3. I know that I was really hoping for a "hand of the light" talent back when Titan's Grip was introduced for warriors that would allow Prot and Ret to equip a 2-hander with a shield. Which is an ability that they'll be introducing for the crusader, though from what I gather it'll just allow for 2-hand flails.

    Anyway, development studios seem to be pretty tightly knit places all things considered and there's a lot of bleed over from one franchise to the next. Bioware is heavy into the storyline aspect of corruption and that's flown into all their games even all the way back to Baldur's Gate and has only become stronger in their own properties like Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

    As for what effect the D2 paladin had on the WoW paladin: Auras, hammer of the righteous, cleansing, ret aura (thorns), redemption (it was a self heal that became the rez in WoW). That's what I've found just looking through the abilities, though many of these abilities can be considered quite different and that Blizzard really just needs to buy a thesaurus.

  6. #6
    Heaven's Sword- the most epic gap closer. Give it to paladins plz. (Granted, its a glorified heroic leap, but warriors already have had absurd amount of tools for mobility/CC.)

  7. #7
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind a leap/charge where you have glowy wings. I loved that charge in Rift

    Really I don't know why they don't retrofit paladins so we all want the +Int plate, that wouldn't fix a lot of the issues but it would make it so we all want the Holy plate.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Really I don't know why they don't retrofit paladins so we all want the +Int plate, that wouldn't fix a lot of the issues but it would make it so we all want the Holy plate.
    Actually, up until WotLK all paladins went for intellect/spellpower stuff. Come WotLK though they felt it was much more sensible to have ret and prot just go with strength like the other plate DPS and tanks. That way it was easier for people to pick up because they knew that strength was for melee and tanking while the int stuff was reserved exclusively for healing.

    The reason they won't "retrofit" paladins to do that is because they already tried it before and it didn't work in their eyes. No melee or tank should be relying on intellect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
    Noodles and chocolate milk is the breakfast of Champions.
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  9. #9
    Technically, a Holy Paladin in WoW is a Cleric and a Prot Paladin is a Holy Knight. A Ret Pally is just a Paladin. (lawful good and violent about it)

    I think outside of the minor details, they're sub categories of the same idea. A holy oriented plate class that uses a melee weapon/shield or two hander and holy magic. If a crusader was implemented in WoW, it would be something like a Holy Spell DPS sword and board plate class. There's lots of sub categories of this in most fantasy RPGs, they're basically the same thing, it just depends on the specific details outside the basic idea.

    1. Hammerdin in D2 uses 1h+shield, is a straight up spell caster
    2. Ret Paladin in WoW uses a 2h weapon, Melee physical DPS + spell dmg
    3. Cleric in DnD uses anything from a staff to a 1h + shield to a 1h + libram to a 2h weapon, combat healer
    4. Prot Paladin in Wow uses 1h + shield, melee tank/protector, defensive holy magic, taunts
    5. Crusader in D3 uses 1h + shield, is a mid range spell DPS + some melee capabilities.

    They're all the same idea (holy magic, heavy armor) just implemented many different ways.
    Last edited by LTCrystallite; 2013-10-28 at 04:18 AM.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LTCrystallite View Post
    5. Crusader in D3 uses 1h + shield, is a mid range spell DPS + some melee capabilities.
    If you read into Diablo lore specifically in the Book of Tyrael, which heavily covers the lore RoS will feature, you will find that Crusaders are in not paladins in anyway shape or form.

    "It is important to note that the members of this order were not paladins."

    "[...]crusaders are a different breed of holy warrior."

    "[...]they were trained to wield powers unlike any before."

  11. #11
    If you must compare Diablo 3 stuff with WoW (which I don't consider a good idea at all) then Tyrael and the Crusader are most analogous to the paladin, yes.
    He's comparing it to diablo 2.

    Diablo 2 had the paladin, a plate wearing holy warrior.

  12. #12
    I am Murloc! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Actually, up until WotLK all paladins went for intellect/spellpower stuff. Come WotLK though they felt it was much more sensible to have ret and prot just go with strength like the other plate DPS and tanks. That way it was easier for people to pick up because they knew that strength was for melee and tanking while the int stuff was reserved exclusively for healing.

    The reason they won't "retrofit" paladins to do that is because they already tried it before and it didn't work in their eyes. No melee or tank should be relying on intellect.
    Are you high? rets didn't use SP plate in TBC. Infact until they finally reworked ret tier midway through the expansion best in slot was mostly gladiator gear or offpieaces.

    It's okay to pretend like you understood the class back then /pat

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Are you high? rets didn't use SP plate in TBC. Infact until they finally reworked ret tier midway through the expansion best in slot was mostly gladiator gear or offpieaces.

    It's okay to pretend like you understood the class back then /pat
    Yeah, if I remember correctly we only really went for 2pc Tier 6 for the chance to regain mana so we didn't go oom. Other then that it was Str plate we wanted.

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  14. #14
    I am Murloc! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rendx View Post
    Yeah, if I remember correctly we only really went for 2pc Tier 6 for the chance to regain mana so we didn't go oom. Other then that it was Str plate we wanted.
    That bonus was shit too. You wore sunwell gear and 3 pce sunwell T6 because well. How else could you expect to get expertise, which at the time of the patch was a relatively new stat.

    You chained various types of mana pots, you took non fatal damage to regain mana, and if you were smart enough you played a Blood elf for significantly more damage, More available mana resources. Gimmic trinket exploitation <Allaince got ONE mightstone Belfs got a 150?180? Ap trinket that you could imbue on the wpn 5mins and then remove it. Which at the time was HUGE 180 free ap? This was useable up until late ICC, worked on Demons/Undead.

    By god those were the days, Downrank consecration that was the same damage for a T6.5 gear play / Green player, non scaling judgement, 10 second crusader strike and this was our big boy hit not the filler LOL, Lets see what else... oh yes, Our execute HoW being 100% unuseable and worthless since it had a cast time and entirely stopped our swing timer during cast.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-10-28 at 04:24 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Are you high? rets didn't use SP plate in TBC. Infact until they finally reworked ret tier midway through the expansion best in slot was mostly gladiator gear or offpieaces.

    It's okay to pretend like you understood the class back then /pat
    Do you have to be insulting? Or has the massive drove of people on this forum who can't admit their faults led you to resort to that to give them enough of a kick to take them down a peg?

    I totally admit I don't know all of how gearing went in TBC. I generalized, which should have been good enough to make a point for the reply to Noble. Evidently it's not good enough for others though. Are you going to hang me for it? Or are you going to give constructive criticism (without snark) and say exactly how Ret valued strength gear over int/SP gear so that you've done the best job you can of lessening my ignorance because you apparently care a great deal about the subject and want to make sure others know what they're talking about?
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-10-28 at 05:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  16. #16
    I am Murloc! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Do you have to be insulting? Or has the massive drove of people on this forum who can't admit their faults led you to resort to that to give them enough of a kick to take them down a peg?

    I totally admit I don't know all of how gearing went in TBC. I generalized, which should have been good enough to make a point for the reply to Noble. Evidently it's not good enough for others though. Are you going to hang me for it? Or are you going to give constructive criticism (without snark) and say exactly how Ret valued strength gear over int/SP gear so that you've done the best job you can of lessening my ignorance because you apparently care a great deal about the subject and want to make sure others know what they're talking about?
    Because a spec with weapon based damage cannot do more damage without damage related stats. This is why the ret design was on its face before the band aids and eventual overhaul of the entire spec.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-10-28 at 05:31 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Actually, up until WotLK all paladins went for intellect/spellpower stuff. Come WotLK though they felt it was much more sensible to have ret and prot just go with strength like the other plate DPS and tanks. That way it was easier for people to pick up because they knew that strength was for melee and tanking while the int stuff was reserved exclusively for healing.
    Ret Paladins in TBC and Vanilla went for Strength plate. Very few pieces of gear also had Intellect. Prot Paladins did use spell power weapons in TBC.

    The reason they won't "retrofit" paladins to do that is because they already tried it before and it didn't work in their eyes. No melee or tank should be relying on intellect.
    The reason it didn't work was because they had to create strength+intellect plate, which would have pissed off Warriors to no end. In Vinalla there was some strength+intellect plate, if anyone remembers BlackWing Lair and Judgement gear. Yes Tier 2 had both stats before Blizzard decided to remove strength at some point. Also some plate had intellect in there, and then there's Tier 2.5.

    In WOTLK Death Knights would have likely used the same gear, which meant Intellect would appear on plate again. So instead of pissing off more Warriors with Intellect+Strength plate, they just made Paladins and DKs work on pure Strength plate.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Ret Paladins in TBC and Vanilla went for Strength plate. Very few pieces of gear also had Intellect
    every tier item had intellect as ret.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Lightbringer_Battlegear

    when sunwell hit those items didn't have it tho since i think they change came in same patch
    Last edited by Sunnydee; 2013-10-30 at 07:31 AM.

  19. #19
    Grunt Brollgarth's Avatar
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    Intellect and Strength in plate was an idea that I always liked back then, and I still do.
    Especially with this current patch (5.4) and the use of int for extra crits...nom nom!!

    I do understand it would make things complicated to some players at these days, but I would very much like to see int and str on plate gear again.

  20. #20
    Actually, I think they should go the other direction and remove INT plate and let Holy paladins scale completely from STR. It would be much easier to assemble an offset. Plus, Blizz wouldn't have to worry about creating gear used only by one spec of one class. It would make itemization of bosses much simpler. Prot using mostly ret gear has worked out pretty well.

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