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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    So how does the EXACT item Thunderforged (5.2 btw, no VP upgrading involved) get a lower score?
    Probably relats to reforging and hit/expertise values. AMR doesn't automatically change the reforge in some circumstances. Here you also have to take into account relative and absolute values of gear.

    1) The item had hit stats on it and as you upgraded to thunderforged, more of the hit got wasted resulting in a lower score. This in combination with stat weights and reforges can cause weird things to happen if you missed it.

    Say for example you are just under the cap with no reforges on a normal item. You upgrade to thunderforged and suddenly you are slightly over cap and have to reforge to a lesser stat. putting you back under the hit cap. Hits value stays at a higher level than the new stat you reforged to because you are under the cap. The item is now "absolutely" worth less than it was before the reforge. (Because its looking at the higher level of hit on the normal piece compared to the lesser value on the thunderforged)

    2) Possibly didn't change the reforge and extra stats just flat out got wasted and again, the absolute value > relative value.
    Last edited by Vladimeir; 2013-10-28 at 04:37 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimeir View Post
    Probably relats to reforging and hit/expertise values. AMR doesn't automatically change the reforge in some circumstances. Here you also have to take into account relative and absolute values of gear.

    1) The item had hit stats on it and as you upgraded to thunderforged, more of the hit got wasted resulting in a lower score. This in combination with stat weights and reforges can cause weird things to happen if you missed it.

    Say for example you are just under the cap with no reforges on a normal item. You upgrade to thunderforged and suddenly you are slightly over cap and have to reforge to a lesser stat. putting you back under the hit cap. Hits value stays at a higher level than the new stat you reforged to because you are under the cap. The item is now "absolutely" worth less than it was before the reforge. (Because its looking at the higher level of hit on the normal piece compared to the lesser value on the thunderforged)

    2) Possibly didn't change the reforge and extra stats just flat out got wasted and again, the absolute value > relative value.
    Yeah I was thinking about that as well, but I couldn't think of an example because in the end the TF item gives either slightly more procs or stronger procs or more stats. You can leave the rest as it is.

    Still, its a plausible explanation. 500-1000 DPS difference is rather minor in our current patches.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Yeah I was thinking about that as well, but I couldn't think of an example because in the end the TF item gives either slightly more procs or stronger procs or more stats. You can leave the rest as it is.

    Still, its a plausible explanation. 500-1000 DPS difference is rather minor in our current patches.

    Keep in mind AMR value is not DPS. Tuned correctly, it can be close, but its just calculations based on stat weights which are dynamic. Generally, even though there is the potential "glitch" (if you want to call it that), going with the thunderforged piece in the example will still be a direct upgrade for you stat for stat. It's just a weird occurrence that makes it appear less valuable after equipping (which just means weights changed after equipping the piece.)

  4. #44
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Yeah I was thinking about that as well, but I couldn't think of an example because in the end the TF item gives either slightly more procs or stronger procs or more stats. You can leave the rest as it is.

    Still, its a plausible explanation. 500-1000 DPS difference is rather minor in our current patches.

    1000 dps from a single item is fairly large last patch (especially with only 6 ilvls difference)
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    1000 dps from a single item is fairly large last patch (especially with only 6 ilvls difference)
    450k damage over a 7,5 minute single target fight, or according to SimC a 0,467% damage increase for a UH DK in BiS gear. For almost every human being you gain more damage by downright playing better, but there's always special snowflakes...

    You entirely missed the point, btw. The point is the difference in stat weight is entirely possible to cause such a DPS increase (or decrease). I can tell you from my own simming on my own class where haste caps, and stat weights of secondary stats are very competitive that I can gain such amounts, but also as much as 15k DPS increase on AoE, by simply reforging and gemming and enchanting different. For my class, last time I simmed it (a few months ago) the difference between 0 and 3 shadow orbs was 3000 DPS (and a shitload more burst). And that is all gained (or lost) without changing any gear.
    Last edited by lolalola; 2013-10-28 at 08:16 PM.
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  6. #46
    Askmrrobot frustrated me one day.. It told me i needed to switch out my orange gems for these other orange gems.. just to tell me to switch back riiight after.. Everything was up to date and optimized.. both times.. So i'm not quite sure what happened there.. Only happened the one time though!.

  7. #47
    Hey I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. It looks like most issues have been addressed. But I'd like to get a 'live' example of this item level issue (set item being 500-1000 pts lower). Keep in mind, it isn't the DPS number. What's important is your total score. If your total score is 500,000, then 500 points is 0.1%. If this is still happening, can you save what you're looking at (click the green save button to the left of your character name) and post the url it generates? That let's me see exactly what you see. Also, let me know what menu you were looking at (the regular gear list, an upgrade list, etc).

    If it currently isn't happening, it's possible you hit a very short-lived bug. I know right when 5.4 came out, there were a handful of set items that didn't have set bonus boosts associated with them, which was fixed later that day. For example, the LFRs had bonuses, but not normal modes.

    And there's the rare, but possible case that it's a hit-balancing issue, and the lower level one IS better. Very, very rare, but we've seen it happen (and verified it's right).

    Also, one thing I want to clear up regarding how we rank gear:
    * Absolute view: The item is scored in a vaccuum, not taking other gear into account. We choose the best reforges/gems/enchants based on your stat weights. That likely means the reforge always goes into hit, which tends to be the highest stat weight.
    * Relative view: This assumes you change only that one item, and considers all of your other gear. For example, let's say you load the list for legs. We replace your current legs with each pair of pants in the list. And each one of those setups is optimized, including a FULL set of gems/enchants/reforges. That means, when we equip legs of awesome, we run a full optimization, and we might change a reforge on your helm to put another reforge on the legs. The score you see is the increase you get from the new legs of awesome. That's why the relative lists load slower than the absolute: if your list has 50 items, we're running 50 full optimizations.
    * All upgrade lists (behind the purple button) are score with relative ranking.
    * Best in bags: IF you open the BiB gear list, the items are listed WITHOUT modifications. The score reflects how good the item is without modifications. However, when we pick BiB, we are obviously optimizing everything

    Tiananmen: when you got this, were the 2 optimized scores the same? And did you see the 'guaranteed optimal' message? (Most people get that message, but a handful of people don't if there are too many combinations to check). Sometimes there is more than 1 best solution that get the same score. Previously, Mr. Robot might alternate between them. But we fixed that about 2 weeks ago. So if you see that happen again, let me know, in the chance we missed a few cases.
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  8. #48
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    450k damage over a 7,5 minute single target fight, or according to SimC a 0,467% damage increase for a UH DK in BiS gear. For almost every human being you gain more damage by downright playing better, but there's always special snowflakes...

    You entirely missed the point, btw. The point is the difference in stat weight is entirely possible to cause such a DPS increase (or decrease). I can tell you from my own simming on my own class where haste caps, and stat weights of secondary stats are very competitive that I can gain such amounts, but also as much as 15k DPS increase on AoE, by simply reforging and gemming and enchanting different. For my class, last time I simmed it (a few months ago) the difference between 0 and 3 shadow orbs was 3000 DPS (and a shitload more burst). And that is all gained (or lost) without changing any gear.
    I want to see 450k dps in 5.2. This was when simcrafting my char gave me 180k~ patchwerk. And "you can gain more damage by playing better" - yes lets NOT optimize gear.

    Ok let's cover the basics. SAME reforge, SAME item, SAME upgrades, only difference is TF. Relative rank. This was back in 5.2 so no idea if it was fixed as I haven't attempted to take AMR seriously since.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    And there's the rare, but possible case that it's a hit-balancing issue, and the lower level one IS better. Very, very rare, but we've seen it happen (and verified it's right).
    How can this be right o0?
    More of the very same stats can never ever be a downgrade... ever unless you do something weird like giving negative values to overcapped stats or do some wrong reforging just to stay below that cap.
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  10. #50
    For what it does, I hear far more complaints about AMR than I hear actual praise.

    EDIT: Sorry, I didn't mean for that to sound critical of the devs of AMR; great work trying to help people out. But yeah; if people in my raids are gonna get an addon to do something they could easily do themselves; and then complain to me that they think its giving them false information (probably because they haven't used it right ) I just find it frustrating.
    Last edited by AeneasBK; 2013-10-29 at 09:18 AM.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    I want to see 450k dps in 5.2. This was when simcrafting my char gave me 180k~ patchwerk. And "you can gain more damage by playing better" - yes lets NOT optimize gear.

    Ok let's cover the basics. SAME reforge, SAME item, SAME upgrades, only difference is TF. Relative rank. This was back in 5.2 so no idea if it was fixed as I haven't attempted to take AMR seriously since.
    Could very well just have been a bug.

    AMR is a great tool, it allows you to do some real nifty stuff that would have taken ages to do manually. But as with all software, there are bugs every now and then. Just look through your results for something wierd or out of place before you start buying gems, enchants and reforging and you should be fine. I've encountered things like this a few times as well, and a simple refresh of the page or updating from the armory usually fixes it.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    For what it does, I hear far more complaints about AMR than I hear actual praise.

    EDIT: Sorry, I didn't mean for that to sound critical of the devs of AMR; great work trying to help people out. But yeah; if people in my raids are gonna get an addon to do something they could easily do themselves; and then complain to me that they think its giving them false information (probably because they haven't used it right ) I just find it frustrating.
    Do bear in mind just how many of those complaints are people who lack understanding of the whole thing, though... I have helped out a 'lot' of guildies and friends using AMR because they either didn't understand it, or thought it was dead wrong. I have yet to see any of all those cases where it was in fact wrong. Almost every time it's people who can't set up the stat weights properly(specifically talking haste caps etc).

    The thing most people misunderstand with the tool though, is that they just think they need to load in their char, hit "optimize" and then it's the best for anyone. This is obviously not true, firstly your gear level matters, what haste caps you should go for and what not, so that requires a change. Then your playstyle has an effect too(especially for healers). As a healer, spirit is undeniably an important stat, but there is also a thing as having too much spirit at higher levels of gear, at which point throughput starts becoming a more valueable stat(AMR now has a much appreciated function to cap spirit as well, though). For some classes fights matter, take an aff warlock for instance, their stat weights vary depending on it being single target or multi target, so unless you want to respec for every boss, there might also be some consideration as to what stat weights to go for there(again here AMR offers different "sets" of stat weights, depending on what you personally prefer for your playstyle/content/whatever).

    These are some of the most common things I see people doing wrong. Yes, plenty people complain, but I am willing to bet the vast majority of them wouldn't if they actually understood the math and basic concepts of the tool.

    I am not saying it's flawless, I am just saying with a bit more user awareness, we'd get a long way


    ***EDIT*** I was already writing this up before your own 'edit', but thought it was worth pointing it either way :P

  13. #53
    OP AMR is working fine. You should be using your own custom stat wieghts for your own particular playstyle. Don't expect to push a button and AMR do everything for you, do some research on your class, use simulationcraft and put in the appropriate stat weightings into AMR.
    Last edited by FissionZero; 2013-10-29 at 09:36 AM.

  14. #54
    I wouldn't recommend AMR to anyone willing to min/max. Use Simulationcraft instead and learn how to optimize your own gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by goltnum9 View Post
    Askmrrobot is a calculator. If you put wrong numbers it will produce wrong numbers.

    Default settings are good for the purpose they write(there is a text under every default setting, explaining what is for). And usually good for people that do normals and thats all.

    If you want 100% of your character, do simulationcraft, find your own numbers, your caps, and check other profiles too.
    Askmrrobot is the best CALCULATOR out there and with a gearing tactic it will produce the best results

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  15. #55
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    Could very well just have been a bug.

    AMR is a great tool, it allows you to do some real nifty stuff that would have taken ages to do manually. But as with all software, there are bugs every now and then. Just look through your results for something wierd or out of place before you start buying gems, enchants and reforging and you should be fine. I've encountered things like this a few times as well, and a simple refresh of the page or updating from the armory usually fixes it.
    See, I tend to work out a lot of things manually and use simcraft when required precision testing (which I am not too fond of either). If it's bugging one time how can I trust it doesn't bug with a result I don't know the answer to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    See, I tend to work out a lot of things manually and use simcraft when required precision testing (which I am not too fond of either). If it's bugging one time how can I trust it doesn't bug with a result I don't know the answer to?
    ...

    Dude, that's life. Nothing is guaranteed. You could slip in the bathroom tomorrow, split your head wide open on the sink and drop dead. What are you going to do? Never take a bath?

  17. #57
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    ...

    Dude, that's life. Nothing is guaranteed. You could slip in the bathroom tomorrow, split your head wide open on the sink and drop dead. What are you going to do? Never take a bath?
    Why rely on software to do things I can do manually with very little extra effort? Your analogy doesn't compare btw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  18. #58
    use simcraft. askmrrobot is a novice tool

  19. #59
    Use Simcraft to find your stat weights then go to ask Mr Robot plug them in and its optimization is very good.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    I wouldn't recommend AMR to anyone willing to min/max. Use Simulationcraft instead and learn how to optimize your own gear.
    What? Good luck getting simcraft to reforge your gear... sure, you can get it to tell you that X stat is better than Y, that's as far as it's getting you. Simcraft is a great tool, but it's an entirely different tool.

    There are other reforging tools, but none that I've seen that also take into account cloak and glove hit/expertise enchants in the reforging equation. In my opinion, AMR is a fantastic tool for anyone from the casual player to the heroic progression raider, assuming you have a solid grasp of the mechanics of the game and how optimal reforging actually works. I never actually bother to use the gear adviser in AMR, because what is and isn't an upgrade is not difficult to determine. I use it solely for reforging. But the gear adviser will work just fine for most people.

    And if you think you're getting anywhere close to optimal reforging manually, or saving time doing that......... well, I give up.
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