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  1. #21
    Dreadlord Elapo's Avatar
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    Well, I'd rather have a disc priest than a shadow priest at that level. They do more DPS (if they don't slack, obv.). Aside from that, yes, low level dungeons suck. But I don't even bother looking at DPS in them. The tank does the most DPS anyway, since most DPS specs don't have an AOE ability (and because vengeance).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    Within 1 week:
    1st kick: Deserter debuff
    2nd kick: 1-week ban from LFD/LFR
    This would be the most stupid feature since the crowd chose you...

    It's unbelievable how susceptible this is to grieving. If people knew you could get banned from LFD for a week if you kick someone enough, they'd kick more often.
    Not to mention the fact that low geared lvl 90 players often get kicked from HC dungeons because their DPS is low, and then Blizz would be like "hey, you got kicked twice, here's a week long ban".
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  2. #22
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Kick protection is there to prevent people from kicking, say, fresh 90s from heroics for doing "low DPS" and because you would frequently have groups of 4 guildmates join up and then kick the 5th person to bring in another guildmate for the last boss. Unless it changed, which I don't think it has, it also makes it so if you kick one person, you can't kick a second in a reasonable amount of time, and makes it so the person kicked can't be kicked out of another group for X amount of time as I believe the intention is supposed to be to let them actually do the dungeon instead of waiting in the queue only to be kicked before they can do the dungeon.

    Human nature is the "Oh look a button press Yes" mentality, and in LFR I have never even seen a reason for a kick appear just "Uberhealer has initiated a vote to kick against Badhunter. Kick Badhunter? Yes/No", although the one or two times I've tried to kick someone I was able to enter a reason. In LFG though nobody reads it, you could put "Rawr" in the reason and people would still kick just because the mentality seems to be hey somebody initiated a votekick, the person being kicked must deserve it.
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  3. #23
    QQing in a low level dungeon will get you nowhere. You can two man/solo all of that shit anyways. When you start moaning at people in low level 5 mans you just make yourself look sanctimonious and a know it all regardless of your intentions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Kick protection is there to prevent people from kicking, say, fresh 90s from heroics for doing "low DPS" and because you would frequently have groups of 4 guildmates join up and then kick the 5th person to bring in another guildmate for the last boss. Unless it changed, which I don't think it has, it also makes it so if you kick one person, you can't kick a second in a reasonable amount of time, and makes it so the person kicked can't be kicked out of another group for X amount of time as I believe the intention is supposed to be to let them actually do the dungeon instead of waiting in the queue only to be kicked before they can do the dungeon.

    Human nature is the "Oh look a button press Yes" mentality, and in LFR I have never even seen a reason for a kick appear just "Uberhealer has initiated a vote to kick against Badhunter. Kick Badhunter? Yes/No", although the one or two times I've tried to kick someone I was able to enter a reason. In LFG though nobody reads it, you could put "Rawr" in the reason and people would still kick just because the mentality seems to be hey somebody initiated a votekick, the person being kicked must deserve it.
    I dont believe there is a reason in LFR. As it requires five people to initiate the kick, i think you just see "so and has been voted to be kicked" or something similar

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  4. #24
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Kick protection is there to prevent people from kicking, say, fresh 90s from heroics for doing "low DPS" and because you would frequently have groups of 4 guildmates join up and then kick the 5th person to bring in another guildmate for the last boss. Unless it changed, which I don't think it has, it also makes it so if you kick one person, you can't kick a second in a reasonable amount of time, and makes it so the person kicked can't be kicked out of another group for X amount of time as I believe the intention is supposed to be to let them actually do the dungeon instead of waiting in the queue only to be kicked before they can do the dungeon.

    Human nature is the "Oh look a button press Yes" mentality, and in LFR I have never even seen a reason for a kick appear just "Uberhealer has initiated a vote to kick against Badhunter. Kick Badhunter? Yes/No", although the one or two times I've tried to kick someone I was able to enter a reason. In LFG though nobody reads it, you could put "Rawr" in the reason and people would still kick just because the mentality seems to be hey somebody initiated a votekick, the person being kicked must deserve it.
    Here we are again. Let them experience the dungeons, regardless of why they were removed from previous dungeons. So some of you are basically saying, that we should all just accept afk'ers, people with no weapon equipped, people doing 15k as fucking lvl 90 (is that even auto attack??), so this type of bad players can get to experience the dungeon. I could not disagree more but sadly Blizz thinks the same. Guess it's a good thing there's no new 5 man dungeons where I'd be forced to carry bads or afk'ers.

    Again, it's not about the freaking level of the dungeon, it's not about finishing it or not, it's about trying to teach scrubs, that 1) You clearly need a weapon (in the OP's case), 2) That afk'ing is not okay and 3) If you can't figure out how to act in a dungeon - even after being told what to do - then you can just gtfo.

    How are bads ever gonna improve, if nobody tells them what they are doing is wrong? How are they gonna learn, when all Blizz is doing, is protect them. Then they hit lvl 90 and go lol LFR and suddenly people start to bitch at them for doing 30k dps on a raid boss, for queuing as tank in full PvP gear, for afk'ing to get a toast or watch tele etc. But all these things they were allowed to do from lvl 1-90, so how would they know better?

    I really despise bad players who refuse to improve or just keep making excuses. But at the same time, I don't think it's fair to expect them to learn anything about etiquette when doing group content, if nobody tells them, that what they're doing is wrong.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    In raid groups where you get personal loot (LFR/Flex) your drop chances are changing too. There was only a shady blue post about this without any specific numbers (ofc they don't want us to know how does it work), but basicly he said if you are a naughty boy your drop chance is different.
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    Last edited by potatoe; 2013-10-28 at 09:11 PM.

  6. #26
    You can't kick someone that isn't doing anything but you are able someone that is actually doing their job. Lovely system. Imo you should just remove the kick timer, if someone is getting constantly kicked they might as well take that as an advice and try to fix whats wrong. Can anyone prove me wrong and say why we should keep the kick timers (i.e. can't be kicked for another x min)? I fail to see a reason for that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Kick protection is there to prevent people from kicking, say, fresh 90s from heroics for doing "low DPS" and because you would frequently have groups of 4 guildmates join up and then kick the 5th person to bring in another guildmate for the last boss.
    Ok say I just ding'd and I get into a heroic and i do shitty deeps and I get kicked. Then i reque and do shitty dps again and get kicked. And then I requ and do shitty dps and get kicked. "-Ok, maybe I *am* doing something wrong. Let's see... Hum... Maybe I should more gear from normals, or maybe blue a few items from the ah, oh maybe I should practice dpsing a little bit more...." Then I reque and do better and don't get kicked. Ain't that fair to you?

    Another scenario: the same person with shitty dps gets into the first group, gets kicked. Reque again and does shitty dps again, the group wipe on the boss and everyone blames that person for doing shitty dps. They want to kick him. But wait, they can't. Oh noes now we gotta stick with this guy and hope we don't wipe again. Maybe someone leaves cuz they are frustrated and hopefully someone with more dps joins the group to balance it out. Or maybe the tank leaves and then the healer leaves and all the dps are now forced to leave and wait in queue for anotehr group hoping they don't get that shitty dps that was causing them to wipe again.

    Anyways, just my 2 cents. Hope I don't get banned for expressing my self against a moderator
    Last edited by land; 2013-10-28 at 09:52 PM.

  7. #27
    I am not really sure where you are coming from in respons to my posts, Danishpsycho. If you read the first post I made in this thread, I said

    "Third, if you feel an urge to educate someone, do it nicely so that the implied criticism is not taken too strong and the target does not go into defensive stance. Advice only works if the target is open to it."

    - and in fact, I do so at times. Much more so in my own guild. However, teaching the uneducated is, while laudable, also time- and energy consuming. I enjoy teaching players... at times. I much more often enjoy having a good time. Having a good time *for me* means getting to the end of an instance in a timely fashion. If you wish to call that leeching by others, so be it . I call my approach pragmatic. I dont think my approach is at all "[...] that you put the blame on the people who carry their weight and let the bads leech." Please put your words on your own behaviour, not on mine.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Kick protection is there to prevent people from kicking, say, fresh 90s from heroics for doing "low DPS" and because you would frequently have groups of 4 guildmates join up and then kick the 5th person to bring in another guildmate for the last boss. Unless it changed, which I don't think it has, it also makes it so if you kick one person, you can't kick a second in a reasonable amount of time, and makes it so the person kicked can't be kicked out of another group for X amount of time as I believe the intention is supposed to be to let them actually do the dungeon instead of waiting in the queue only to be kicked before they can do the dungeon.
    I agree that there is a very, very small percentage of kicks that are groups of friends kicking people either for fun or to get their other friend into the group. It's just that though, a very small percentage of kicks. I'm not saying it can't be abused, it most certainly could (and will) be. I hardly think it's a worse solution that what's in place now though. Being forced to drag useless players around who are either afk auto attacking or are just too stupid to be within 10 miles of a dungeon or raid.

    How often though are your hands tied by the kick protection system when you NEED to kick a bad/afk player to finish a dungeon or LFR? In LFR especially, at least half the players who need to be kicked have some kind of protection, either via your own personal kick timer or their "can't be kicked" timer. What exactly does the kick protection *teach* these players? That it's okay to AFK your way to free loot? That it's okay to play like an imbecile, die on every boss, do half the acceptable DPS for your gear level? I don't understand why people like this deserve Blizzard's protection. We should teach them that this isn't acceptable behavior. You do that by kicking them and punishing them.

  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonora View Post
    I am not really sure where you are coming from in respons to my posts, Danishpsycho. If you read the first post I made in this thread, I said

    "Third, if you feel an urge to educate someone, do it nicely so that the implied criticism is not taken too strong and the target does not go into defensive stance. Advice only works if the target is open to it."

    - and in fact, I do so at times. Much more so in my own guild. However, teaching the uneducated is, while laudable, also time- and energy consuming. I enjoy teaching players... at times. I much more often enjoy having a good time. Having a good time *for me* means getting to the end of an instance in a timely fashion. If you wish to call that leeching by others, so be it . I call my approach pragmatic. I dont think my approach is at all "[...] that you put the blame on the people who carry their weight and let the bads leech." Please put your words on your own behaviour, not on mine.
    So you don't get, where I'm coming from, right after you stated how low level dungeons are tuned to be 2-3 manned? That people should just put the worst offenders on ignore and be done with it?

    I don't get, what you don't get tbh. I'm just pointing out, that ignoring bad players will do nothing to solve it. You say it isn't a huge issue - according to who? Ofc that's going to be subjective but with all the LFR bashing threads where people complain about baddies, I'd dare say that bad players in general is an issue for everyone else.

    I didn't say, that you were leeching for just ignoring a bad player. If that's what you got from my post, maybe I worded it wrong. But the bad player is indeed leeching and while you have a pragmatic approach to that, others simply just refuse to carry leeches. Again, we're back at the whole point of this thread - why can't we just freely kick bad/leeching players? Why are they always protected by a vote to kick shield?

    In terms of your personal approach, it did actually sound like you disagree with the OP? If you think what he did was right, that wasn't actually clear. The way you listed the the reasons not to do anything about it, sorta makes it look like you were defending the baddie. Saying "low level dungeons are tuned to be 2-3 manned". Well, what's your point then? We all know those dungeons are piss easy but again, it's not about that. So why mention it, if you agreed with the OP?

    Also, I don't have to put words on my own behavior in this context, cause I'm not the one saying that people should just have a pragmatic approach, or remember that the dungeons can be 2-3 manned. If you actually think bad players need to be told to improve or fuck off, that's not what you said.

    Another thing. You just stated, that the low level dungeons can be 2-3 manned right. So why is your biggest concern to finish the dungeon in a timely fashion? If it's tuned to easy it can be 2-3 manned, why not just kick the leeching player? Cause surely it wouldn't affect your dungeon overall - unless the person is a healer/tank - which it wasn't in the OP's case.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishpsycho View Post
    It's just sad that people complain about the decline in skill when doing LFR for instance. Yet the best solution to better the player base has always (imo) been teaching new players in-game. Tell them that you actually need a weapon, tell them that you can't just queue as dps, if you have no dps spec. The OP could have worded himself a bit more polite and I suspect it was the way he worded it, that got him kicked.
    This extends only as far as the "im trying but have no honest idea what im doing" player, not this kind of fuckwheel walking failure. If you are polite with these people the best you can hope for is scornful dismissal- OP and his pet tank should of immediately left, citing the priest as why
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  11. #31
    Danishpsycho>> So you don't get, where I'm coming from, right after you stated how low level dungeons are tuned to be 2-3 manned? That people should just put the worst offenders on ignore and be done with it?

    >> I don't get, what you don't get tbh. I'm just pointing out, that ignoring bad players will do nothing to solve it. You say it isn't a huge issue - according to who? Ofc that's going to be subjective but with all the LFR bashing threads where people complain about baddies, I'd dare say that bad players in general is an issue for everyone else.

    I give my own way of dealing with this issue: I solve the problem *for me*. We have a mechanism given to us by Blizzard to avoid annoying players in the future and it is called ignore; you wont meet someone in LFD again when you ignore them (wish it also works in LFR but ah well ). The funny thing about my approach is that if everyone did this, said 'leeches' would have a more and more hard time finding a group since everyone puts them on ignore. However, others often put up with negative players. Well, that is up to them - I wont.

    Unless they apply to my guild, then I am happy and willing to educate them. Unless they behave such that they wont make membership - but I dont see any reason to deadl with nasty people in my pleasant guild environment. I dont see a reason why I would waste time on nasty people irl, neither do I do so in guild.

    Note that this all is about *nasty, negative* people. People who dont know how to carry their weight but are otherwise ok company I would not ignore or kick. At times I would try to educate them, and if they come in my guild I would definitely educate them. But I dont see why I should have responsibility for *all of them* (as you are implying) when even Blizzard is not taking care of that issue in their game. If people cant learn ingame, via try and error, via willingness to learn themself using the buildup implicit in leveling and joining guilds etc, I dont feel it as my responsibility to teach such masses.

    >> I didn't say, that you were leeching for just ignoring a bad player. If that's what you got from my post, maybe I worded it wrong. But the bad player is indeed leeching and while you have a pragmatic approach to that, others simply just refuse to carry leeches. Again, we're back at the whole point of this thread - why can't we just freely kick bad/leeching players? Why are they always protected by a vote to kick shield?

    I dont get why often-kicked players are kickprotected. Unless it is not only the negative players who often get kicked, but also people trying to learn in a pleasant way. When a game starts being negative to new arrivals, you have lost an important part of your population as developer.

    >> In terms of your personal approach, it did actually sound like you disagree with the OP? If you think what he did was right, that wasn't actually clear. The way you listed the the reasons not to do anything about it, sorta makes it look like you were defending the baddie. Saying "low level dungeons are tuned to be 2-3 manned". Well, what's your point then? We all know those dungeons are piss easy but again, it's not about that. So why mention it, if you agreed with the OP?

    At the end of my first post where I explained my pragmatic approach, I give my feedback on how I would have dealt with the situation the OP got into. As you can read there, I would indeed have done differently.

    >> Another thing. You just stated, that the low level dungeons can be 2-3 manned right. So why is your biggest concern to finish the dungeon in a timely fashion? If it's tuned to easy it can be 2-3 manned, why not just kick the leeching player? Cause surely it wouldn't affect your dungeon overall - unless the person is a healer/tank - which it wasn't in the OP's case.

    As long as I can finish it all in a timely fashion and someone is carried along but does not give a negative impression on me, this person does not hinder me, (s)he might learn something and/or gain some gear to perform better. I dont have issues with that. In a way it even brings to me a challenge, to dps more, to tank better or to heal better.

    We all started out as 'noobs' in this game, no matter how long ago. I have had so many pleasant surprises about people eventually getting the idea of how to play wow when you give them enough practice. EVen when I am not actively educating folks - and I still give tips at times - I have the experience that just showing an active, weight-carrying playstyle can influence their playstyle.

  12. #32
    Had quite similar experiences leveling a char with a girlfriend recently.
    Every instance had at least someone who was not bad but simply 90% afk and usually no way of removing them so at some point we just gave up on the thought of leveling fast and we decided that one of us should just stick the other during those dungeons and the one sticking was assigned to come up with something entertaining. Worked really well and was quite comfortable. There is no way around it as this is how Blizzard wants wow to be played obviously.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-10-29 at 05:48 AM.

  13. #33
    Pandaren Monk Issalice's Avatar
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    I hear about this type of thing all the time on here, but have never once seen the person who speaks up (politely at least) kicked, not once. I'm not the type of person to say something unless the player that isn't pulling their weight has started to effect the group. It is incredibly irritating yes, and it gets under my skin. But I don't want to be the gal to bring it up. If someone else does, go for it.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post

    It happens, there's no cure for it because of how people are. Chalk it up to the typical bad LFG experience and move on.
    And with you of all people going meh and accepting it no wonder the community is circling the shitter.

    You could just as well have posted that thread on "confessions of an elitist troll" that got locked and confessed you troll lfr. Because its lfr right and what does it really matter!? You trolling lfr for your personal jollies wouldn't really impact the run that much would it? After all, you are only 4% of the group.

    If people get slapped hard for slacking (or sucking so badly that they don't have a weapon) early on in wow life then maybe, just maybe there would be less threads bemoaning the state of the game at max level. Instead we have moderators (of all people) pretty much tacitly approving of this behaviour. Well played sir.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    First of all, it was a level 35 dungeon. Who really cares if one person wasn't pulling their weight?
    You know those people who AFK in LFR or do 30k DPS? This is where they come from. People dont make them pay for being leeches, they get away with it and people like you excuse it. So guess what happesn at 90 in LFR? It's not about whether you can complete the dungeon it's about doing your part as a team. Is that really so hard to understand?

    Second, you were kicked because you raised a concern. Usually in any kind of dungeon, the people who voice a concern, even a valid one (as in your case) is removed because people don't want to deal with somebody making a big deal. Let me play devil's advocate: In this level 35 dungeon what did it matter if this priest wasn't even trying? Did it impact you from completing the dungeon? You said yourself that your tank friend died because he pulled too much, not because there was some DPS check (which there aren't in any level 35 dungeon) that wasn't met because you were basically 4-manning it. So what, other than to call out a bad player, was your reasoning for trying to kick the priest? Would you have been able to complete the dungeon without him?

    It happens, there's no cure for it because of how people are. Chalk it up to the typical bad LFG experience and move on.
    That's his point. The experience sucks and I imagine some people just walk away from WoW saying "Fuck this, I don't need the shit."

    What you're ENTIRELY missing is that the jackass who wasn't trying had protection from having to pay the consequences of his actions. So many times people snark back at those of us sick of LFR bads that we should votekick them. Well, guess what? the system doesn't allow bads to be kicked after a bit. they get protected. For being bad enough that people repeatedly kick them.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    If people get slapped hard for slacking (or sucking so badly that they don't have a weapon) early on in wow life then maybe, just maybe there would be less threads bemoaning the state of the game at max level. Instead we have moderators (of all people) pretty much tacitly approving of this behaviour. Well played sir.
    People dont learn from hard slaps. If anything it teaches them to slap back hard as well, to others. Or in this case to the OP.
    If you want people to learn anything you first have to get the point across what they do wrong, then to have them care, then to instill a form of want-to-improve. For example, the OP said what he disliked, but that does not mean the receiving player understood the complaint or was bothered by it - even if he would have gotten kicked.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Kick protection is there to prevent people from kicking, say, fresh 90s from heroics for doing "low DPS" and because you would frequently have groups of 4 guildmates join up and then kick the 5th person to bring in another guildmate for the last boss.
    The first reason has nothing to do with leveling dungeons. The second reason is a tiny minority of kicks as most guild groups of 4 just get a 5th from the guild or just run it - the odds that a 5th guildie will join during the run is very low.

    Next excuses?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonora View Post
    People dont learn from hard slaps. If anything it teaches them to slap back hard as well, to others. Or in this case to the OP.
    If you want people to learn anything you first have to get the point across what they do wrong, then to have them care, then to instill a form of want-to-improve. For example, the OP said what he disliked, but that does not mean the receiving player understood the complaint or was bothered by it - even if he would have gotten kicked.
    Oh come on. The offending player didn't even have a weapon equipped. I mean, sure, you can say they were a new player but really, ask in guild, hit google and google something stupidly obvious like 'priest warcraft'. 35 levels in and no weapon is pretty much not even trying. Now, I'd like us all to say "Hey, I noticed you didn't have a weapon, want some tips on priest, I have a priest alt" or something, but there are enough players who will tell you to eff off that I understand why some dont' do that.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    You know those people who AFK in LFR or do 30k DPS? This is where they come from. People dont make them pay for being leeches, they get away with it and people like you excuse it. So guess what happesn at 90 in LFR? It's not about whether you can complete the dungeon it's about doing your part as a team. Is that really so hard to understand?

    That's his point. The experience sucks and I imagine some people just walk away from WoW saying "Fuck this, I don't need the shit."

    What you're ENTIRELY missing is that the jackass who wasn't trying had protection from having to pay the consequences of his actions. So many times people snark back at those of us sick of LFR bads that we should votekick them. Well, guess what? the system doesn't allow bads to be kicked after a bit. they get protected. For being bad enough that people repeatedly kick them.
    However, that protection does not work in LFR. So people in LFR who underperform can be kicked (4 votes to start the kick process) and I see that thappen regularly. It requires a little assertiveness, but you have the tools to protect yourself in LFR.

    In LFD it is a little more complicated and I have a very few times walked out of a group because they refused to kick someone. However, many more times I had a fine till even very good experience. The whole issue happens, but (and I play a lot of LFD, LFR and guildgroups) it is a minor thing. THe majority of my experiences is positive, its just that we people tend to put a lot of weight on the nasty cases.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Oh come on. The offending player didn't even have a weapon equipped. I mean, sure, you can say they were a new player but really, ask in guild, hit google and google something stupidly obvious like 'priest warcraft'. 35 levels in and no weapon is pretty much not even trying. Now, I'd like us all to say "Hey, I noticed you didn't have a weapon, want some tips on priest, I have a priest alt" or something, but there are enough players who will tell you to eff off that I understand why some dont' do that.
    For starters he had to understand English well enough to get the point. He then had to read and comprehend and understand the point. Just because *you* get it, does not mean a new player gets it. Teaching people requires you to be able to think from the others point of view.

  19. #39
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    If people aren't kicked for being shit/doing nothing, they're not going to have any incentive to improve themselves.

  20. #40
    since most people don't quite read who is being voted to be kicked and just read the reason and assume who it is, the person who is in danger of being kicked can kick someone else from the group. i'll use the op's story as an example: the priest realizes that they will soon be kicked and votes to remove the op from the group. everyone in the group has seen chat and has a general feeling that the priest should/could be removed. when the vote to kick shows up, each player assumes its the priest and just goes along with it. the priest could also type something like "fail priest" or "has no weapon" as the reason to make the other members voting think its the priest being removed.

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