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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonora View Post
    People dont learn from hard slaps. If anything it teaches them to slap back hard as well, to others. Or in this case to the OP.
    If you want people to learn anything you first have to get the point across what they do wrong, then to have them care, then to instill a form of want-to-improve. For example, the OP said what he disliked, but that does not mean the receiving player understood the complaint or was bothered by it - even if he would have gotten kicked.
    Well given that within the constraints of the system and the limited interaction the only option is to slap (kick) them. Which does indeed teach people something. That is of course until they implement an ehug system where I can send them a greeting card and chocolates with a message about how much I care about them being all they can be in wow and hoping that they feel positively motivated by effort.

    The question of whether to overhaul the system to weed out slackers is a wider topic.

  2. #42
    Mechagnome Xzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    First of all, it was a level 35 dungeon. Who really cares if one person wasn't pulling their weight? Second, you were kicked because you raised a concern. Usually in any kind of dungeon, the people who voice a concern, even a valid one (as in your case) is removed because people don't want to deal with somebody making a big deal. Let me play devil's advocate: In this level 35 dungeon what did it matter if this priest wasn't even trying? Did it impact you from completing the dungeon? You said yourself that your tank friend died because he pulled too much, not because there was some DPS check (which there aren't in any level 35 dungeon) that wasn't met because you were basically 4-manning it. So what, other than to call out a bad player, was your reasoning for trying to kick the priest? Would you have been able to complete the dungeon without him?

    It happens, there's no cure for it because of how people are. Chalk it up to the typical bad LFG experience and move on.
    It's quite probable they'd be able to finish it while carrying him. But from my own experience I don't think anybody could be bothered to do that. Why should they? Why put up with shitheads? I myself would have waited those couple minutes to kick the slacker out even if it was just the last boss remaining. The justice is really just worth that much.
    What I get from your post is that you're fine with people slacking. You might have even done it yourself. It doesn't matter whether it's level 35 dungeon or not - everybody there wants to get it over with asap to maximize their XP rate and level up faster. That is always the whole bloody point. To level up fast.
    Just because someone doesn't feel like pushing his own buttons to get the XP doesn't mean the other 4 dudes are gonna do it for him.
    You are example of one of many kinds of plagues in our community.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Well given that within the constraints of the system and the limited interaction the only option is to slap (kick) them. Which does indeed teach people something. That is of course until they implement an ehug system where I can send them a greeting card and chocolates with a message about how much I care about them being all they can be in wow and hoping that they feel positively motivated by effort.

    The question of whether to overhaul the system to weed out slackers is a wider topic.
    You say that the only way to teach people is to kick them. This is not true at all... apart from kicking, you have chatting, you have being an example, you have even voip options. It may be that you dont wish to go through all that trouble... but there are many ways in which you can teach something to a wow player.

    And for clarity, what the OP said ("Do you seriously not have any weapon equiped at all? seriously") is not a true teaching statement, even though it is possible to learn from its implication. However, the remark is stated in an attacking way, and thus it is very possible that the teaching message got lost behind the defensive stance this player put on. Just consider for yourself how you would respond to the above question, and then to the remark "Hey, I see you dont have a weapon equipped. If you equip a weapon, you will perform better." Generally to take advice people have to be open to it; being defensive negates the effect. If you truly want to teach, it requires you to take a teaching attitude, not an attacking/insulting one.

    Re the last quote: There is no way to prevent slacking, except by organised teamforming. Make your own team, set your own norms. You will find that slacking is a very subjective term that everyone deals differently with.

  4. #44
    This is why when i recently leveled a prot pally i decided against doing random dungeons. Instead i would solo each one once just to get the quests and some nice xp. Easy enough to do up till cataclysm dungeons.

    I have pretty much given up on doing random dungeons/heroics at all. Tank, dps, or healing. I might do them once in a while with guild, but thats about it. There will never be a fix for this problem other then removing randoms. You cant remove the kick system or you will get nothing but people AFKing the entire thing since there is nothing any one can do about them. you cant remove the overly complicated kick timer system since people would just kick anythign that looked at them funny. Know it does something with people using the kick a lot get the timer increased or something to that effect, other then that i also do not understand much about it.

    In the end there is nothing that can be done about it. You can either suck it up and move on to the next dungeon, or just dont use it in the first place.
    ^^Everything said above is purely the opinion of the person who posted it. Nothing said is to be taken as fact unless otherwise stated, and even then only taken into consideration as fact, and not an actual fact, as it could be wrong or in other ways misinformed.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonora View Post
    You say that the only way to teach people is to kick them. This is not true at all... apart from kicking, you have chatting, you have being an example, you have even voip options. It may be that you dont wish to go through all that trouble... but there are many ways in which you can teach something to a wow player.

    And for clarity, what the OP said ("Do you seriously not have any weapon equiped at all? seriously") is not a true teaching statement, even though it is possible to learn from its implication. However, the remark is stated in an attacking way, and thus it is very possible that the teaching message got lost behind the defensive stance this player put on. Just consider for yourself how you would respond to the above question, and then to the remark "Hey, I see you dont have a weapon equipped. If you equip a weapon, you will perform better." Generally to take advice people have to be open to it; being defensive negates the effect. If you truly want to teach, it requires you to take a teaching attitude, not an attacking/insulting one.

    Re the last quote: There is no way to prevent slacking, except by organised teamforming. Make your own team, set your own norms. You will find that slacking is a very subjective term that everyone deals differently with.
    Are you for real? The 99 people you run across that don't slack are a decent example. Yet that one dude chooses to slack despite all the good exmaples he comes up against.
    VOIP? In a dungeon? If you don't get told to fuck off most people don't have VOIP and if they do it will take longer to set up than to run the dungeon.

    In the limited timeframe of interaction you have with people you can offer the stick, not the carrot. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for pleasant interaction in a dungeon but most times no matter how neutrally you frame advice the response will be the middle finger. So forgive me for not minding the kick system, I've had enough instances where I've offered advice like "hey you should really use SoI for tanking, it does great heals and isn't a dps loss". The response? "Fuck off, lol noob"

  6. #46
    Dreadlord Outofmana's Avatar
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    The priest probably used the trick : Started a Votekick on you but typed is OWN name in the box, everyone thinks they are kicking the priest on first glance and press yes. CY@~

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    First of all, it was a level 35 dungeon. Who really cares if one person wasn't pulling their weight? Second, you were kicked because you raised a concern. Usually in any kind of dungeon, the people who voice a concern, even a valid one (as in your case) is removed because people don't want to deal with somebody making a big deal. Let me play devil's advocate: In this level 35 dungeon what did it matter if this priest wasn't even trying? Did it impact you from completing the dungeon? You said yourself that your tank friend died because he pulled too much, not because there was some DPS check (which there aren't in any level 35 dungeon) that wasn't met because you were basically 4-manning it. So what, other than to call out a bad player, was your reasoning for trying to kick the priest? Would you have been able to complete the dungeon without him?

    It happens, there's no cure for it because of how people are. Chalk it up to the typical bad LFG experience and move on.
    Trying to justify the actions of the priest in this situation baffles me .

  8. #48
    You say that the only way to teach people is to kick them. This is not true at all... apart from kicking, you have chatting, you have being an example, you have even voip options. It may be that you dont wish to go through all that trouble... but there are many ways in which you can teach something to a wow player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Are you for real? The 99 people you run across that don't slack are a decent example. Yet that one dude chooses to slack despite all the good exmaples he comes up against.
    VOIP? In a dungeon? If you don't get told to fuck off most people don't have VOIP and if they do it will take longer to set up than to run the dungeon.

    In the limited timeframe of interaction you have with people you can offer the stick, not the carrot. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for pleasant interaction in a dungeon but most times no matter how neutrally you frame advice the response will be the middle finger. So forgive me for not minding the kick system, I've had enough instances where I've offered advice like "hey you should really use SoI for tanking, it does great heals and isn't a dps loss". The response? "Fuck off, lol noob"
    For kicks I highlighted what is imo relevant to your complaint. Just because I tell how true education would work, does not mean I always do it... I rarely do except for guildies; see my earlier posts. I just point out that there *are* ways to educate beyond the ambiguous message kicking gives. Despite what is claimed above (and by you?) kicking rarely gives the message you hope/think/wish it does. It just removes a someone from your party, which is exactly why I use it.

    I rarely get 'the middle finger'; I have had quite some positive responses. But *if* I get a negative vibe from a player, I immediately either try to kick or leave. This rarely happens though.

  9. #49
    High Overlord Cantwingrr's Avatar
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    For some added information here, the priest I'm talking about in this conversation had several pieces of heirloom gear equiped. They knew very well that they could have contributed if they felt like it. Didn't notice this until very shortly before I got kicked.

  10. #50
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignotum View Post
    Trying to justify the actions of the priest in this situation baffles me .
    I'm not trying to justify the actions, I'm stating that at that level of content does it really matter? There are always people like that who want to get carried through things without effort, in a meaningful raid or content I could see taking a major issue with it but at a level where that person's performance literally has no bearing on the outcome it's not some big deal. Was the priest wrong? Yes, of course they were, but is it really worth getting upset about?
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  11. #51
    When solo in LFD, seeing 3 or 4 others of the group from the same realm or same guild sends off alarm bells in my mind. It will either be great or end poorly.

    1. Its a pro group grinding out LFR and everything is fast and efficient. I just do my part and be polite as i can.

    2. Its a mostly pro group carrying their idiot cousin or girlfriend. DO NOT comment on the one bad player. Their friends will take offense. They will use their majority to kick you. To them, closing ranks is more important than overall efficiency. I just keep my head down and suck it up. Its their responsibility to "teach" this person. Not mine.

    3. Its a group of 12-year-old mean girls. They're more interested in "entertaining" themselves than grinding out a LFD. "Entertainment" really means grieffing the one or two randoms that lucked into their group. They start off outrageous chat, really just provoking each other and the poor random person that tries to be polite. They all roll need on everything to hoard loot, etc.
    I just afk, let them carry me or votekick me. Just walk away.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm not trying to justify the actions, I'm stating that at that level of content does it really matter? There are always people like that who want to get carried through things without effort, in a meaningful raid or content I could see taking a major issue with it but at a level where that person's performance literally has no bearing on the outcome it's not some big deal. Was the priest wrong? Yes, of course they were, but is it really worth getting upset about?
    I would expect a mod -of all people - to see the value in correcting poor behavior, specifically using a stick instead of a carrot, to just letting something slide. I've been on both sides of this argument, being kicked and kicking someone else, and once I realized how quickly people vote to kick over even their misconception of me slacking or irritating, I decided to shape up and have no remorse when teaching others.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm not trying to justify the actions, I'm stating that at that level of content does it really matter? There are always people like that who want to get carried through things without effort, in a meaningful raid or content I could see taking a major issue with it but at a level where that person's performance literally has no bearing on the outcome it's not some big deal. Was the priest wrong? Yes, of course they were, but is it really worth getting upset about?
    Yes, because as we've said to you several times already, tolerating this is what leads to LFR AKFers and 30k DPSers. Of course, you ignored that.

    incidentally, I certainly hope you never hand out infractions here. I mean, does one bad comment really matter? Is it really worth getting upset about? *cough*

  14. #54
    Mechagnome Sarthan's Avatar
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    Another reason to remove LFR/LFg

  15. #55
    Moderator Azshira's Avatar
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    I really do dislike this when leveling one of my alts with my friend casually, that you cannot kick a player for x amount of time in dungeons and they just afk etc, really annoying system.
    Proud Moderator of Raids and Dungeons.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Yes, because as we've said to you several times already, tolerating this is what leads to LFR AKFers and 30k DPSers. Of course, you ignored that.

    incidentally, I certainly hope you never hand out infractions here. I mean, does one bad comment really matter? Is it really worth getting upset about? *cough*
    LFD is very doable with 2-3 reasonable players. Several LFR fights are not doable right now with any underperforming players. Thus, I ignore such in LFD and kick them in LFR. Logical .

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonora View Post
    LFD is very doable with 2-3 reasonable players. Several LFR fights are not doable right now with any underperforming players. Thus, I ignore such in LFD and kick them in LFR. Logical .
    And guess one reason you get crap players in LFR? Because you and others let them be crap as they level with no penalty.

  18. #58
    You let a tank die in a level 35 instance i would kick you to.

  19. #59
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm not trying to justify the actions, I'm stating that at that level of content does it really matter?
    Bad behavior of this sort matters, yes. This is someone who possibly AFK's through LFR. If they have heirlooms and the rest they should know better. You can apply exactly the same logic there: "It's only LFR and it's designed to have a few people slacking." It's something that Blizzard needs to take a serious look at. I have no idea how to fix it but I do know that removing content so that it doesn't happen isn't the answer. Just as it's a stupid idea to remove low-level dungeons to stop this from happening, it's just as stupid to remove stuff from end game for the same reason.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-10-30 at 12:14 AM.
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  20. #60
    Warchief Forgettable's Avatar
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    Seriously, why do people get "kick protection" after being kicked multiple times? This just proves they are either a toxic or bad player. They should get a "kick vulnerability" if anything. It's so flawed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delti View Post
    If Forgettable knew what he was doing with his keyboard, I would totally kick his ass in dps!
    ^ My guild leader while drunk.

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