Subtlety as a Troll - When to use cooldowns

[Chancie]

I have recently changed races to a Troll and that made me wonder what the optimal use of cooldowns is.

Berzerking
Vanish
Prep
Shadow Blades
Shadow Dance

I use Shadow Blades and Berzerking together as it has the same cooldown. When Shadow Dance is up, I use it without postponing it at all. Good fortune if it lines up with Shadowblades (I'll postpone it by a few seconds if SB is off cooldown soon).

Vanish and prep I will use when Find Weakness isn't up and SD is on cd.

Is this the ideal way to use it?

[Kezuma]

to my good knowladge use SB with SD and ofc berserking lines up with SB but if you happend to have AoC trinket your cd timers will be off the mark depending of the level of your ilvl trinket.
for the 1st time your cds lines up after that try to use your cds as much as possible on CD and delay them only if u have to wait a short ammount of time if not keep going as normal with them on cd.

[Chancie]

I'm using vanish only to get Find Weakness up, but it also gives the damage buff. Should I try and use vanish with some of my other cooldowns if I can? Atm I don't.

[Kezuma]

I'm using vanish only to get Find Weakness up, but it also gives the damage buff. Should I try and use vanish with some of my other cooldowns if I can? Atm I don't.

if you play with Nightstalker change it to Subterfuge , time your vanish close to 100 energy and you should be able to score ambush ( macro it with premeditation ) - eviscerate - ambush again , u get more uptime of your find weakness buff if you play with subterfuge , other than that like i said if you have the AoC trinket your cd timers wont line up all the time.

edited my bad premed not prep either way yes master of subtlety gives you the 10% you should aswell try to refresh a rupture after vanish to get the 10% bonus aswell , as for the vanish uses and SD try to score always when u;re close to 100 energy and dont delay as much , the more find weakness you have the better obviously, and if u happend to have the 4 set bonus it gets way better , i found myself lucky enough to have a full min of find weakness with vanish SD and procs

[Chancie]

I am subterfuge. Good advice to macro ambush with Vanish. I don't do that. Don't even wait for energy before I do.

I was talking about Master of Subterfuge and how to work in synergy with that buff.

[Cirayne24]

to my good knowladge use SB with SD and ofc berserking lines up with SB but if you happend to have AoC trinket your cd timers will be off the mark depending of the level of your ilvl trinket.
for the 1st time your cds lines up after that try to use your cds as much as possible on CD and delay them only if u have to wait a short ammount of time if not keep going as normal with them on cd.

Curious as I'm only just now getting back into raiding, but I've been told both use SB with SD and stagger them. Last night I staggered them because Find Weakness already provides 100% ArP so SB would be more beneficial to use after Find Weakness Fades. I did more damage, but that could also be because I'm getting used to raiding again.

Any thoughts on this?

[Carp The Fish]

Subtlety as a Troll plays pretty much the same as it does for any other spec. The only key difference is that Berserking needs to be macro'd on to Ambush so that you can ALWAYS hit it during Find Weakness. It is better with Shadow Blades, but if you have Assurance of Consequence of ANY level, you can't just instantly line up the two procs.

Currently I have it macro'd on to Shadow Blades anyways, and it's not a relative DPS loss on any of the shorter DPS checks (ex. Norushen, Malkorok).

Curious as I'm only just now getting back into raiding, but I've been told both use SB with SD and stagger them. Last night I staggered them because Find Weakness already provides 100% ArP so SB would be more beneficial to use after Find Weakness Fades. I did more damage, but that could also be because I'm getting used to raiding again.

Any thoughts on this?

You should still line up SB with SD. Your melee hits are the only thing that pass through armor during SB. Using it during Find Weakness uptime means that you'll get more finishers during FW uptime, which is ALWAYS going to be better than hitting SB outside of FW uptime. The reason most people recommend to link SB with SD is because it's a guaranteed 20 seconds of FW uptime, but you can sync it with Vanish if you prefer that.

[mongoose6]

if you play with Nightstalker change it to Subterfuge , time your vanish close to 100 energy and you should be able to score ambush ( macro it with premeditation ) - eviscerate - ambush again , u get more uptime of your find weakness buff if you play with subterfuge , other than that like i said if you have the AoC trinket your cd timers wont line up all the time.

I find it more beneficial (if you use anticipation) to aim for three ambushes during subterfuge. Same amount of findweakness uptime, more ambush damage, same amount of eviserates during FW. This is of course dependent on the amount of CP's you already have on target prior to vanishing.

[Cirayne24]

You should still line up SB with SD. Your melee hits are the only thing that pass through armor during SB. Using it during Find Weakness uptime means that you'll get more finishers during FW uptime, which is ALWAYS going to be better than hitting SB outside of FW uptime. The reason most people recommend to link SB with SD is because it's a guaranteed 20 seconds of FW uptime, but you can sync it with Vanish if you prefer that.

Gotcha, thanks.

[Kezuma]

I find it more beneficial (if you use anticipation) to aim for three ambushes during subterfuge. Same amount of findweakness uptime, more ambush damage, same amount of eviserates during FW. This is of course dependent on the amount of CP's you already have on target prior to vanishing.

my average evis during FW is higher than average ambush , is the main reason i use ambush evis ambush while subterfuge is up

[Sesshou]

my average evis during FW is higher than average ambush , is the main reason i use ambush evis ambush while subterfuge is up

Irrelevant. You don't compare ambush with evis, you compare ambush with backstab. Your FW period will always last longer than the time frame in which you can ambush so you will have FW for the evis if you wait to ambush first.

[Kezuma]

Irrelevant. You don't compare ambush with evis, you compare ambush with backstab. Your FW period will always last longer than the time frame in which you can ambush so you will have FW for the evis if you wait to ambush first.

moved today to a dummy to test your 3 ambush theory and is not happening , during vanish not even with 2setbonus 5 stacks when my 1st ambush is 50energy i dont get to score 3 ambushes so i still stick to my ambush evis ambush rotation while vanish(subterfuge).
the only thing i can do to get FW as you said +1sec overall if u count it like that is to ambush garrote ambush or any combination of them 3.
I would be happy to learn your tactic how to score 3 ambushes but tbh i didnt managed to get any , remember ambush is still 60 unlike in shadowdance when it goes down to 40( not counting the 2set bonus)

[Carp The Fish]

moved today to a dummy to test your 3 ambush theory and is not happening , during vanish not even with 2setbonus 5 stacks when my 1st ambush is 50energy i dont get to score 3 ambushes so i still stick to my ambush evis ambush rotation while vanish(subterfuge).
the only thing i can do to get FW as you said +1sec overall if u count it like that is to ambush garrote ambush or any combination of them 3.
I would be happy to learn your tactic how to score 3 ambushes but tbh i didnt managed to get any , remember ambush is still 60 unlike in shadowdance when it goes down to 40( not counting the 2set bonus)

Mind giving us a link to your armory so that we can see how much Haste you have? You have to have a certain amount of Haste before you can get 3 Ambushes in Subterfuge.

[mongoose6]

Could also be the latency monster screwing up your ability usage. If you have low haste or bad latency, then ambush, evis, ambush probably is your best option.

[Sesshou]

moved today to a dummy to test your 3 ambush theory and is not happening , during vanish not even with 2setbonus 5 stacks when my 1st ambush is 50energy i dont get to score 3 ambushes so i still stick to my ambush evis ambush rotation while vanish(subterfuge).
the only thing i can do to get FW as you said +1sec overall if u count it like that is to ambush garrote ambush or any combination of them 3.
I would be happy to learn your tactic how to score 3 ambushes but tbh i didnt managed to get any , remember ambush is still 60 unlike in shadowdance when it goes down to 40( not counting the 2set bonus)

Other than what Carp asked which will matter for you getting it off or not, my statement doesn't depend on you having the energy for 3 ambushes or not.

You were talking about evis doing more damage than ambush so you were using evis. That is always irrelevant because using that ambush during FW never costs you an evis during FW. It costs you a backstab during FW. Now sure, if you don't have energy to get a 3rd ambush, then you have no choice, but evis hitting harder has nothing to do with that.

[Kezuma]

Other than what Carp asked which will matter for you getting it off or not, my statement doesn't depend on you having the energy for 3 ambushes or not.

You were talking about evis doing more damage than ambush so you were using evis. That is always irrelevant because using that ambush during FW never costs you an evis during FW. It costs you a backstab during FW. Now sure, if you don't have energy to get a 3rd ambush, then you have no choice, but evis hitting harder has nothing to do with that.

1st of all i;m sitting on a 13943 or 46.09% haste and 2nd i still dont see your point in why while im in subterfuge for the 3 sec i use ambush - evis - ambush , how comes is that bad? i dont get to score the 3rd ambush in those 3 sec so i rly fail to see where you came with the ideea that what ipm doing its actually cost me a backstab during FW.
when i vanish i have 1 button for ambush+prem after the 1st ambush i get the 5 combos follow by and evis then i get another ambush before subterfuge is over and i get a refresh for the FW aswell , but by all means maybe it might be my letancy that is not allow me score the 3rd ambush but then again i get to use ambush evis ambush so all i can think about is that somewhere my energy is not line up as it should in order for me to get the 3 ambushes

[Sesshou]

I didn't say that was bad, just that if you can do 3 ambushes, you should. And no what you're doing doesn't cost you a backstab. I was saying your comparison is irrelevant because ambushing will never cost you an evis. An ambush costs you a backstab (well a little over 1 backstab) because rather than using the energy on a backstab later, you use it on an ambush now.

[Kezuma]

I didn't say that was bad, just that if you can do 3 ambushes, you should. And no what you're doing doesn't cost you a backstab. I was saying your comparison is irrelevant because ambushing will never cost you an evis. An ambush costs you a backstab (well a little over 1 backstab) because rather than using the energy on a backstab later, you use it on an ambush now.

now i see your point , sry i havent managed to understand it before thanks for clear that out but like i said either i need more haste or my energy regen from SnD does not line up perfectly while i'm in subterfuge but i havent got to 3 ambushes yet .

[Carp The Fish]

now i see your point , sry i havent managed to understand it before thanks for clear that out but like i said either i need more haste or my energy regen from SnD does not line up perfectly while i'm in subterfuge but i havent got to 3 ambushes yet .

...are we talking about fitting 3 Ambushes into your Stealth Subterfuge (3 seconds), or 3 Ambushes into a Vanish Subterfuge (5 seconds)?
You literally can't fit 3 into your standard opener. There's no scenario where that works (not to mention you wouldn't have Sanguinary Veins up).