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  1. #1

    Paragons DPS (Elemental)

    Hi guys, just curious what you think the best maximising of DPS would be for Paragons.
    Let's say there's 3 or more targets for Chain Lightning and/or Flame Shock, obviously damage only matters on one target, is it most viable for me to be DoTing two and CLing as filler instead of LB, DoTing 3 and CLing as filler, DoTing 4 and more or less just perma LvBing but spending GCDs on Flame Shock more, ie. more CL = More 7 stack fulminations + more CL procs on the main target anyway.

    Opinions?

    - - - Updated - - -

    For reference, due to range, the FS targets beyond the first two are scorpions which can be eaten randomly, thus wasting the FS.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm also thinking possibly swapping UF even though there's target swapping, since I'm multi-DoTing and then using LB again as filler since it's 30% buffed + 10% buff on LvBs from all the procs.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 573 Ele/572 Enh 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 12/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 558 Blood 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 13/14 Normal SoO
    Not raiding with DK, currently in a 25man guild with Shaman.

  2. #2
    IMO, any CL usage on this fight is a DPS loss, as is multi-dotting.
    Every single point of damage from the extra flame shocks is "wasted", and using CL in place of LB lowers your single target damage done (by LB) at least 30%.
    Extra fulminations and LvBs won't makeup the difference, and your single-target DPS will just be lower.

    The only benefit from multi-dotting/CL usage on this fight is to pad the meters.
    UF might be ok, but EB will still be better.

  3. #3
    atleast 2 flame shocks up at all times, dont listen to him

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ginjo View Post
    IMO, any CL usage on this fight is a DPS loss, as is multi-dotting.
    Every single point of damage from the extra flame shocks is "wasted", and using CL in place of LB lowers your single target damage done (by LB) at least 30%.
    Extra fulminations and LvBs won't makeup the difference, and your single-target DPS will just be lower.

    The only benefit from multi-dotting/CL usage on this fight is to pad the meters.
    UF might be ok, but EB will still be better.
    huh. You know that at least Flame Shock multi-DoTing increases your single target ya, even if it's just one extra FS.
    CL also increases your single target because the extra bounces proc more mastery procs, which bounce through original targets.
    Which is why I was asking if using UF + Regular LB works out more since 30% LB damage + 10% LvB damage over CL filler w/ EB
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 573 Ele/572 Enh 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 12/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 558 Blood 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 13/14 Normal SoO
    Not raiding with DK, currently in a 25man guild with Shaman.

  5. #5
    I ran sims, and with either int or mastery, double flame shocks is neutral in damage (UF). Neither gain nor loss. A third FS slightly drops your single target damage.

    With EB, however, it is neutral with 2 FS, and slightly goes up with a third.

    I am running an build with heavy int>Mas

    With all of the recent buffs to Lightning Bolt, however, it is NOT an single target increase to Chain Lightning. I get a somewhat steep drop in simcraft by doing so.

    With 3 targets, the chance to proc mastery is the same between CL and LiB. CL does have that 1/3 multiplier. And again, with the recent LiB buffs, the Fulmination Stacks do not account to more single target damage.

    The highest single target damage you could theoretically get would be EB and triple flame shock. This is tested with the most recent Simulation Craft.
    Last edited by Zixan; 2013-10-29 at 02:36 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Skywalker View Post
    atleast 2 flame shocks up at all times, dont listen to him
    Ya I know, but I'm wondering about the further stuff, which is best out of all said options, at least 2 FSs is a guarantee on pretty much any talent choice as a single target increase.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zixan View Post
    I ran sims, and with either int or mastery, double flame shocks is neutral in damage (UF). Neither gain nor loss. A third FS slightly drops your single target damage.

    With EB, however, it is neutral with 2 FS, and slightly goes up with a third.

    I am running an build with heavy int>Mas

    With all of the recent buffs to Lightning Bolt, however, it is NOT an single target increase to Chain Lightning. I get a somewhat steep drop in simcraft by doing so.

    With 3 targets, the chance to proc mastery is the same between CL and LiB. CL does have that 1/3 multiplier. And again, with the recent LiB buffs, the Fulmination Stacks do not account to more single target damage.

    The highest single target damage you could theoretically get would be EB and triple flame shock. This is tested with the most recent Simulation Craft.
    I'm running UF + 2 FS at the moment, and it's working out to be more consistent than 2 FS + CL w/ EB (My armory is in my sig by the way) but slightly less peak damage, possibly considering PE, how much of a gain is PE in burst for the 30 seconds, we're getting further now, so we have Burst needed @ Boss 1, 3 minutes later @ Boss 3, a minute later @ Boss 4, on Boss 3/4 2/3 FS are available but not really CL.

    I assume best would be either UF or EB w/ multiple FS, the difference is small based on your sims?

    Ty for your info as well.
    I'm running heavy mastery heavy haste split build, 560 iLvl.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 573 Ele/572 Enh 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 12/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 558 Blood 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 13/14 Normal SoO
    Not raiding with DK, currently in a 25man guild with Shaman.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Ya I know, but I'm wondering about the further stuff, which is best out of all said options, at least 2 FSs is a guarantee on pretty much any talent choice as a single target increase.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm running UF + 2 FS at the moment, and it's working out to be more consistent than 2 FS + CL w/ EB (My armory is in my sig by the way) but slightly less peak damage, possibly considering PE, how much of a gain is PE in burst for the 30 seconds, we're getting further now, so we have Burst needed @ Boss 1, 3 minutes later @ Boss 3, a minute later @ Boss 4, on Boss 3/4 2/3 FS are available but not really CL.

    I assume best would be either UF or EB w/ multiple FS, the difference is small based on your sims?

    Ty for your info as well.
    I'm running heavy mastery heavy haste split build, 560 iLvl.
    DON'T use CL. CL is no longer an increase to single target. Not even close anymore.

    My optimal sim (Int heavy, though it shouldn't change much) says that EB + 3FS + LiB was best, but only by about 1-3% (deviation). EB+2FS, UF+2FS were neutral, with UF 3FS being a slight loss. (less than 1%).

    For burst phases, I still wouldn't take PE, and would rather use UF with triple FS, just have the 2 off target FS's up before you needed to switch.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zixan View Post
    DON'T use CL. CL is no longer an increase to single target. Not even close anymore.

    My optimal sim (Int heavy, though it shouldn't change much) says that EB + 3FS + LiB was best, but only by about 1-3% (deviation). EB+2FS, UF+2FS were neutral, with UF 3FS being a slight loss. (less than 1%).

    For burst phases, I still wouldn't take PE, and would rather use UF with triple FS, just have the 2 off target FS's up before you needed to switch.
    Running UF + 2 FS + LB now, I'll see what I can do with 3 FS for burst because of range issues and generally lots of shit to move from everywhere, but it seems like we're not having issues with our burst anyway.

    On that topic though, what about CL if it was hitting 5 targets, my 22 pulls from yesterday show me doing slightly more 1-1.5M at times using this CL, because of all the parasites, but using this UF + LB is better for after first guy since Skeer is no longer an issue for us, the UF + LB is more consistent than CL though, which I assume is also because CL can be hitting anywhere from 2 to 5 depending on NO# Parasites in melee.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 573 Ele/572 Enh 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 12/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 558 Blood 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 13/14 Normal SoO
    Not raiding with DK, currently in a 25man guild with Shaman.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Running UF + 2 FS + LB now, I'll see what I can do with 3 FS for burst because of range issues and generally lots of shit to move from everywhere, but it seems like we're not having issues with our burst anyway.

    On that topic though, what about CL if it was hitting 5 targets, my 22 pulls from yesterday show me doing slightly more 1-1.5M at times using this CL, because of all the parasites, but using this UF + LB is better for after first guy since Skeer is no longer an issue for us, the UF + LB is more consistent than CL though, which I assume is also because CL can be hitting anywhere from 2 to 5 depending on NO# Parasites in melee.
    Just now freshly simmed this on your demand.

    Assuming you're meaning Single Target damage, its about a 2% loss to single target to use CL cleave across 5 targets, as opposed to a 15-20% loss with 3 target. This is assuming you're maintaining a single target dps rotation, but substituting LiB with CL.

    Edit: There's virtually no way to determine (or control) whether the paragons or the parasites are being damage, so it may or may not be reliable enough to use. If killing the parasites is something you're trying to do, Lava Beam would be beneficial over Lava Burst, depending one whether AoE or single target is needed more for you setup/attempt. My raid skips the parasites completely.
    Last edited by Zixan; 2013-10-29 at 04:44 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zixan View Post
    Just now freshly simmed this on your demand.

    Assuming you're meaning Single Target damage, its about a 2% loss to single target to use CL cleave across 5 targets, as opposed to a 15-20% loss with 3 target. This is assuming you're maintaining a single target dps rotation, but substituting LiB with CL.

    Edit: There's virtually no way to determine (or control) whether the paragons or the parasites are being damage, so it may or may not be reliable enough to use. If killing the parasites is something you're trying to do, Lava Beam would be beneficial over Lava Burst, depending one whether AoE or single target is needed more for you setup/attempt. My raid skips the parasites completely.
    @17M HP per Parasite, you can't AoE them down, on the bright side, we've got our eating strat down perfect for it pretty much with double eats etc.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 573 Ele/572 Enh 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 12/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 558 Blood 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 13/14 Normal SoO
    Not raiding with DK, currently in a 25man guild with Shaman.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zixan View Post
    with the recent LiB buffs, the Fulmination Stacks do not account to more single target damage.
    Not even with the t16 2pc bonus?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Skywalker View Post
    atleast 2 flame shocks up at all times, dont listen to him
    I agree. Its not considered a dps loss or waste of GCD for that matter when you put FS on 2 extra targets for more Lava surge prox. If you are lucky enough, its like you have an ascendance active.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundaman View Post
    I agree. Its not considered a dps loss or waste of GCD for that matter when you put FS on 2 extra targets for more Lava surge prox. If you are lucky enough, its like you have an ascendance active.
    tl;dr the guy who said that multiple Flame Shocks are bad for single targets doesn't know the basics of Ele Shaman, even a Shaman who only just read about Elemental could tell you that it's a single target increase just based on execution times of LvB vs LB, getting one extra proc when LvB is worth ~2.5x a LB cast, which even taking into account the wasted FS GCD it works out to be a gain.

    As for UF and EB, from logs, I'm finding UF to be more valuable since there's a lot of movement on this boss and times when I'm kinda blindly mashing lightning bolt + UF and don't have time to stop and EB/LvB, logs are private so I can't link.

    On that note, my damage to our initial target seemed higher using CL, but I've put this down to the fact that it was initially taking us longer to kill the first boss before we altered our strat a little, which would have meant more time on said boss. Currently doing consistently about 17M damage to Skeer before he dies as opposed to 18-18.5M using CL in our old strat.

    Zixan seems to know what he's talking about in his simming and from what I can see it seems to be reasonably accurate in live.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    Not even with the t16 2pc bonus?
    With T16 2P, even Fulm procs from regular LB is enough to keep the debuff on the target.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 573 Ele/572 Enh 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 12/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 558 Blood 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 13/14 Normal SoO
    Not raiding with DK, currently in a 25man guild with Shaman.

  14. #14
    If you're using UF, then multidotting gets tricky. Since ya don't wanna be switching targets for FS during a unleashed fury debuff on ya main target. I'm guessing that must be a downright dps loss. But maybe the extra lava surges will make up for that...

    Think elemental blast should be better for multidotting situations since it's you who gets the buff ;-)...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by rogas View Post
    If you're using UF, then multidotting gets tricky. Since ya don't wanna be switching targets for FS during a unleashed fury debuff on ya main target. I'm guessing that must be a downright dps loss. But maybe the extra lava surges will make up for that...

    Think elemental blast should be better for multidotting situations since it's you who gets the buff ;-)...
    Multidotting in this is not trying to keep dps on multiple targets, you're focusing on one target while tabbing through some other *who cares* targets with flameshock with the intention of fishing for lavasurge procs only.

  16. #16
    Every time I triple dot I get so many LvB procs that it makes me wonder if it's worth casting LB at all, since the procs seem to hit just as I'm beginning to cast another spell. I've often wondered how DPS would look if I just kept up 3 FS's and held down my LvB button the rest of the time to immediately cast those procs instead of waiting until the LB finishes casting.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by hatchetman240 View Post
    Every time I triple dot I get so many LvB procs that it makes me wonder if it's worth casting LB at all, since the procs seem to hit just as I'm beginning to cast another spell. I've often wondered how DPS would look if I just kept up 3 FS's and held down my LvB button the rest of the time to immediately cast those procs instead of waiting until the LB finishes casting.
    Its not cut and dry to say CL isnt a single target Increase, the trick is to use your shock on CD, the correct way to do this is to use CL once or twice to ensure your fulmination stacks reach 7 and still use a LB while your shock is on CD
    Kengos-Frost/Blood DK:http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...engos/advanced
    Genndori-Ele/Resto Shaman:http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ndori/advanced
    Battletag-Genndori#1959

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    Not even with the t16 2pc bonus?
    The sims I did were with the 2pc. But if you'd like a more defined answer, If you are OCD enough, you could use CL ONLY to recharge Fulmination to add time to it. I wouldn't however. It just isn't worth the small difference, and likely is a loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    tl;dr the guy who said that multiple Flame Shocks are bad for single targets doesn't know the basics of Ele Shaman, even a Shaman who only just read about Elemental could tell you that it's a single target increase just based on execution times of LvB vs LB, getting one extra proc when LvB is worth ~2.5x a LB cast, which even taking into account the wasted FS GCD it works out to be a gain.

    As for UF and EB, from logs, I'm finding UF to be more valuable since there's a lot of movement on this boss and times when I'm kinda blindly mashing lightning bolt + UF and don't have time to stop and EB/LvB, logs are private so I can't link.

    On that note, my damage to our initial target seemed higher using CL, but I've put this down to the fact that it was initially taking us longer to kill the first boss before we altered our strat a little, which would have meant more time on said boss. Currently doing consistently about 17M damage to Skeer before he dies as opposed to 18-18.5M using CL in our old strat.

    Zixan seems to know what he's talking about in his simming and from what I can see it seems to be reasonably accurate in live.
    1: yes, its not a loss to double FS. I can second this, but try to avoid doing it if Ascendance is within 15-20 seconds, then its not worth the global.

    2: The ability to move with UF is usually what makes it more valuable in practice vs sims. Movement (more importantly unplanned movement) doesn't affect the output of UF talent at all.

    3: Don't forget that other players in your raid may have tweaked their own rotations doing more themselves, allowing less for you to do to the boss. I don't mean to completely dismiss it, but just keep it in your head.

    4: I love simcraft. If needed, I can provide my results, or try to tailor them to another need. I'd rather be corrected than flat wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkalark
    Multidotting in this is not trying to keep dps on multiple targets, you're focusing on one target while tabbing through some other *who cares* targets with flameshock with the intention of fishing for lavasurge procs only.
    His point was that the global you spend casting flame shock doesn't benefit from the 10 out of 15 seconds of your UF talent. You want to aim to use FS outside of that, as you wouldn't be casting a buffed spell during the debuff. Opportunity costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by hatchetman240
    Every time I triple dot I get so many LvB procs that it makes me wonder if it's worth casting LB at all, since the procs seem to hit just as I'm beginning to cast another spell. I've often wondered how DPS would look if I just kept up 3 FS's and held down my LvB button the rest of the time to immediately cast those procs instead of waiting until the LB finishes casting.
    No. The procs do seem to flood in, but at any point you don't get a proc, and are mashing a button that doesn't do anything, its a pretty steep loss. I wouldn't take this road. Too much time waiting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori
    Its not cut and dry to say CL isnt a single target Increase, the trick is to use your shock on CD, the correct way to do this is to use CL once or twice to ensure your fulmination stacks reach 7 and still use a LB while your shock is on CD
    You have a good point. The trials I ran that concluded it was a loss was simply replacing Lightning Bolt with Chain Lightning. I will work on building a simcraft action list to test this further.

    However, I would organize the spell list in reverse of how you listed it. A 3, 4, or even 5 jump CL will likely get you either 6 or 7 stacks on LS by itself, but I would recommend casting the CL closer towards the end of the Shock CD, as pure lightning bolts with a plethora of Overloads/Echos can easily push you to the cap, and sometimes do. CL in that scenario would be wasted. (albeit rare)

    EDIT:
    I am currently trying to build an action list for the modified rotation that Gendori stated. Preliminary results state its still a loss, but there is a problem I'm running into regarding missing Rolling Thunder procs. I may have found a pretty substantial bug. Currently talking to Simcraft devs..
    Last edited by Zixan; 2013-10-30 at 03:54 AM.

  19. #19
    You are the biggest SimCraft nerd I've ever met.

    But ty for your help, also would double FS just before Ascendance still be a loss, if say... we're going into a burn and I'm popping Ascendance w/o procs and/or with only like, int procs, so I'm at 1.4 second cast time, from my knowledge, a proc uses only a 1 second GCD doesn't it, so getting procs from pre-FSing a second target would be similar to having my meta up during the Ascendance.

    Obviously I'd prefer to have my meta + procs up, but sometimes esp. with tight burns on Paragons, I just kinda have to blow it with whatever procs I get as I don't have the luxury of waiting around.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 573 Ele/572 Enh 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 12/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 558 Blood 6/6 HM MV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 13/14 Normal SoO
    Not raiding with DK, currently in a 25man guild with Shaman.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    You are the biggest SimCraft nerd I've ever met.

    But ty for your help, also would double FS just before Ascendance still be a loss, if say... we're going into a burn and I'm popping Ascendance w/o procs and/or with only like, int procs, so I'm at 1.4 second cast time, from my knowledge, a proc uses only a 1 second GCD doesn't it, so getting procs from pre-FSing a second target would be similar to having my meta up during the Ascendance.

    Obviously I'd prefer to have my meta + procs up, but sometimes esp. with tight burns on Paragons, I just kinda have to blow it with whatever procs I get as I don't have the luxury of waiting around.
    The biggest dps increase from double FS is from resetting the CD on LvB. The .2 cast time difference is minimal.

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