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  1. #21
    This threat is kind of stupid because the OP doesn't really give any information about the circumstances.
    In general yes dps gains more from a weapon upgrade, but:
    Blood DK still gain a significant part of their dps from weapon dmg.
    Ilvl difference and stats on the weapon can still make it advantageous to give a weapon to the tank instead.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  2. #22
    Unless the dps is utterly shit, they'll gain far more from a new weapon than a tank, even though it's useful for a tank, it's far better for a dps.

  3. #23
    Reminding me I had similar situation few days ago. I was tanking in dps way (blood dk, hit and exp to 7,5% > max parry > dodge > strength > mastery, healers had no problems with healing me) and warforged sword from Sha dropped. I won roll but sword was given to pally dps (raid leaders friend). Result? I switched back to full survi spec because raid leader told exactly I can get only "tank" items, I can't roll on "dps" items. So I went back to hit and exp to 7,5% > mastery > stamina. Pally is doing 10k more dps with warforged weapon (rofl) and because my spec changed we lost ~70k of mine dps. Judge yourself if that was good or bad call. Of course for "full mastery" tank, Nazgrims mace would be better imho.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Tryl View Post
    Reminding me I had similar situation few days ago. I was tanking in dps way (blood dk, hit and exp to 7,5% > max parry > dodge > strength > mastery, healers had no problems with healing me) and warforged sword from Sha dropped. I won roll but sword was given to pally dps (raid leaders friend). Result? I switched back to full survi spec because raid leader told exactly I can get only "tank" items, I can't roll on "dps" items. So I went back to hit and exp to 7,5% > mastery > stamina. Pally is doing 10k more dps with warforged weapon (rofl) and because my spec changed we lost ~70k of mine dps. Judge yourself if that was good or bad call. Of course for "full mastery" tank, Nazgrims mace would be better imho.
    Wait that just sounds a lot like you're butthurt and intentionally hurting your raid because you didn't like the decision of your raid leader.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Wait that just sounds a lot like you're butthurt and intentionally hurting your raid because you didn't like the decision of your raid leader.
    Oh? I just see it the way that if raid leader wants to equip me with full-survival gear (he said he won't give me any items other than full-tank items) I should go full-survival and be full-tank?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Tryl View Post
    Oh? I just see it the way that if raid leader wants to equip me with full-survival gear (he said he won't give me any items other than full-tank items) I should go full-survival and be full-tank?
    Ah the dpstanks, always loved those. They want to be able to roll on dps gear, but have prio on tank gear. Loot whoring at its finest.

  7. #27
    Not really understand your point. Raid leader wants me to go full survi and take full survi items so I go full survi, don't really see any whoring here. Beeing full tank now, taking tank items only as rl wants, everyone's happy apparently.
    Last edited by Tryl; 2013-10-31 at 01:56 PM.

  8. #28
    My point is that you want to stick your hand in 2 candy buckets. You want to be able to roll on dps and tank gear. If you can help out your raid by doing higher dps then thats a good thing, but it doesnt remove the thing that the dps would benefit more from a weapon then you would. His overall dps will see a bigger increase then yours, your reaction is nothing but pure spite and that is textbook example loot whoring.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tryl View Post
    Oh? I just see it the way that if raid leader wants to equip me with full-survival gear (he said he won't give me any items other than full-tank items) I should go full-survival and be full-tank?
    For one:
    The "tank gear" has become the real dps gear in 5.4 so there's no real need for you to roll on dps items like there was before where you pretty much had to use haste/mastery gear because it was optimal.

    Two:
    As like a bazillion people in this thread have stated weapons should go to the dps and why. Unless your ret pally was using a normal mode thok weapon (haste inside) and you still using something as bad as a council normal weapon (Hit/Crit) that weapon is much more useful to your ret pally.

    Three:
    You're an asshole for switching to a sub-optimal reforge/gearing strategy just because the decision of your raid leader didn't please you.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  10. #30
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itakas View Post
    My point is that you want to stick your hand in 2 candy buckets. You want to be able to roll on dps and tank gear. If you can help out your raid by doing higher dps then thats a good thing, but it doesnt remove the thing that the dps would benefit more from a weapon then you would. His overall dps will see a bigger increase then yours, your reaction is nothing but pure spite and that is textbook example loot whoring.
    Has anyone actually ran sims or are you just going to continue making statements without any evidence? Personally, it's my opinion that loot should be distributed based on both whether or not it's a bigger upgrade, statistically, and also based on other factors such as how often someone is benched, their personal skill, etc. These situations are never as cut and dry as "DPS get a larger benefit by default so they should always get priority".

    Some comparisons between myself and our Warrior, using normal and heroic versions of Greatsword of Pride's Fall.







    It'd be a 2k~ DPS increase for the Warrior over the DK, assuming equal skill. The difference isn't large enough, solely, to decide whom the upgrade is better for. A "correct" decision would need to be based on all factors. Furthermore, if either of the two parties has a higher item level weapon than the other, the decision is much simpler.

    TLDR: Loot distribution isn't as simple as "X item is better for X class, period". Decisions should be based on multiple factors.
    Last edited by Auk; 2013-10-31 at 03:58 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tryl View Post
    Reminding me I had similar situation few days ago. I was tanking in dps way (blood dk, hit and exp to 7,5% > max parry > dodge > strength > mastery, healers had no problems with healing me) and warforged sword from Sha dropped. I won roll but sword was given to pally dps (raid leaders friend). Result? I switched back to full survi spec because raid leader told exactly I can get only "tank" items, I can't roll on "dps" items. So I went back to hit and exp to 7,5% > mastery > stamina. Pally is doing 10k more dps with warforged weapon (rofl) and because my spec changed we lost ~70k of mine dps. Judge yourself if that was good or bad call. Of course for "full mastery" tank, Nazgrims mace would be better imho.

    I'll agree with other posters that you are in the wrong for screwing over your raid deliberately, HOWEVER, your raid lead is the wrong for telling you how to gear when he clearly is uninformed or ill-informed on current DK tank gearing. You need to sit down with him, explain to him that if he is unable or unwilling to keep up with your gearing needs then he needs to stop trying to dictate what you can and can't roll on. This entire expansion has seen the line between optimal tank gear and optimal dps gear become almost non-existent. This is especially true in 10 mans because tank dps makes up such a large percentage of the overall raid damage.

    If he simply refuses to listen and be obstinate on this issue then I suggest you start looking for another raid team lead by someone who isn't an asshat.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    *Too long so didnt wanna quote all**
    I guess you are talking about the warrior w**** in your guild.

    Simple patchwerk sim with your and his current gear, did him as arms since i dont know his other weapon as fury.

    You with normal xal - 204689
    You with heroic pride gs - 213151
    dps gained - 8462

    Him with normal xal - 299695
    Him with heroic pride gs - 322667
    dps gained - 22972

    Now as you can see, he does get a higher dps boost then you and quite a big one.

    Edit: Dont know what did you sim but a t16h warrior with double pride gs h, sims over 400k dps and with norma off-hand 395k, how did you get only 335296 dps.
    Last edited by Itakas; 2013-10-31 at 04:49 PM.

  13. #33
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    First of all, the default SimCraft priority for Blood DKs is terrible if you want to evaluate DPS. I use my own personal priority for SimCraft because it's actually accurate for near maximum DPS without sacrificing survivability. You can't just use a crappy priority, which is evident by the fact that it doesn't even include Death and Decay, just to skew numbers.

    Here's what I use:

    Code:
    # Custom consumables.
    
    default_enchant_crit_rating=950
    default_enchant_dodge_rating=750
    
    # Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.
    
    actions.precombat+=/horn_of_winter
    actions.precombat+=/blood_presence
    
    # Snapshot raid buffed stats before combat begins and pre-potting is done.
    
    actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
    actions.precombat+=/army_of_the_dead
    actions.precombat+=/mogu_power_potion
    actions.precombat+=/raise_dead
    
    # Executed every time the actor is available.
    
    actions=auto_attack
    actions+=/antimagic_shell,interval=30,damage=100000
    actions+=/army_of_the_dead
    actions+=/dancing_rune_weapon
    actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=30
    actions+=/blood_fury
    actions+=/berserking
    actions+=/arcane_torrent
    actions+=/use_item,slot=hands
    actions+=/blood_boil,if=blood>0&buff.skeers_bloodsoaked_talisman.stack>=18&(dot.blood_plague.ticking&dot.frost_fever.ticking)
    actions+=/outbreak,if=(dot.frost_fever.remains<=2|dot.blood_plague.remains<=2)|(!dot.blood_plague.ticking&!dot.frost_fever.ticking)|buff.dancing_rune_weapon.up
    actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
    actions+=/icy_touch,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
    actions+=/death_strike,if=(frost=1&unholy=1&frost.cooldown_remains<1&unholy.cooldown_remains<1)|(frost=2&unholy=2)
    actions+=/soul_reaper,if=blood>0&target.health.pct-3*(target.health.pct%target.time_to_die)<=35
    actions+=/raise_dead
    actions+=/death_coil,if=stat.attack_power>122464&buff.dancing_rune_weapon.up&(blood<2|runic_power>70)
    actions+=/death_coil,if=stat.attack_power>251151&(blood<2|runic_power>70)
    actions+=/rune_strike,if=blood<2|runic_power>70
    actions+=/heart_strike,if=(blood=1&blood.cooldown_remains<1)|blood=2
    actions+=/death_and_decay,if=buff.crimson_scourge.up
    actions+=/blood_boil,if=buff.crimson_scourge.up
    actions+=/horn_of_winter
    actions+=/death_strike,if=cooldown.empower_rune_weapon.remains=0
    actions+=/heart_strike,if=target.health.pct-3*(target.health.pct%target.time_to_die)>35
    actions+=/empower_rune_weapon


    Second of all, I simmed him in his Fury gear because that's his main spec. Obviously that isn't going to result in 400k simmed DPS because he's not wearing full heroic warforged gear which is what all of the T16H profiles use.

    Anyways, you're kind of missing the point which is that it's entirely situational, saying that a weapon upgrade is always better to give to a DPS over a tank is flat out wrong. I'm not going to get into a debate on specific numbers of every single spec that uses 2-handers.
    Last edited by Auk; 2013-10-31 at 09:23 PM. Reason: updated priority, thanks mione!

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    <snip>
    You're missing ERW and army somewhere in there. Otherwise, great priority and I mostly agree. I use a very similar one in my own blood project (which I hope will be ready for 6.0), with the exception of DS and SR overstepping Raise Dead (runes or SR cooldown going to waste is in my opinion more important than 1s cooldown off ghoul).

    You could also add some conditionals for Horn of Winter to be used a bit earlier in the cases where you'd overwise end up low on resources, but that's mostly irrelevant anyway.

    I heavily approve of working on blood sims in any way, so kudos

  15. #35
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    You're missing ERW and army somewhere in there. Otherwise, great priority and I mostly agree. I use a very similar one in my own blood project (which I hope will be ready for 6.0), with the exception of DS and SR overstepping Raise Dead (runes or SR cooldown going to waste is in my opinion more important than 1s cooldown off ghoul).

    You could also add some conditionals for Horn of Winter to be used a bit earlier in the cases where you'd overwise end up low on resources, but that's mostly irrelevant anyway.

    I heavily approve of working on blood sims in any way, so kudos
    Thanks for pointing that out, can't believe I missed it.

    Updated my post with the fix and a few more additions that I've made that are a DPS increase. I agree that runes/SR are more important than using Raise Dead earlier so that's lower now as well.
    Last edited by Auk; 2013-10-31 at 09:02 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Tryl View Post
    Not really understand your point. Raid leader wants me to go full survi and take full survi items so I go full survi, don't really see any whoring here. Beeing full tank now, taking tank items only as rl wants, everyone's happy apparently.
    way to throw a temper tantrum lol
    also tank items are dps items now.
    you don't even want haste. crit is "ok" though only because you do more dps

  17. #37
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    TL/DR version:

    Weapons are upgrades for everyone. Arguing who it is a "better" upgrade for is pretty pointless unless you have someone who's obviously skill-wise miles above everyone else. That's why guilds have "loot systems" because trying even to arbitrarily say "X spec gets loot first" is just not going to end well. Even loot council systems usually weight decision based on personal skill and level of upgrade and may just pass it to /roll anyway (if you have two similarly skilled players upgrading from the same item).

    Looks like a case of "lost a roll" for the Blood DK, and now he's mad. Most people look negatively on people who complain for no reason about loot, and the same would go if the situation were reversed.

  18. #38
    Tanks>Dps>Healers

    Crit and mastery is a pretty big deal for blood dks

  19. #39
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tryl View Post
    Reminding me I had similar situation few days ago. I was tanking in dps way (blood dk, hit and exp to 7,5% > max parry > dodge > strength > mastery, healers had no problems with healing me) and warforged sword from Sha dropped. I won roll but sword was given to pally dps (raid leaders friend). Result? I switched back to full survi spec because raid leader told exactly I can get only "tank" items, I can't roll on "dps" items. So I went back to hit and exp to 7,5% > mastery > stamina. Pally is doing 10k more dps with warforged weapon (rofl) and because my spec changed we lost ~70k of mine dps. Judge yourself if that was good or bad call. Of course for "full mastery" tank, Nazgrims mace would be better imho.
    Stop being a butthurt baddie.

    I'd gkick you and blacklist you.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNationGamer View Post
    Tanks>Dps>Healers

    Crit and mastery is a pretty big deal for blood dks
    Crit itself doesn't seem to be. Parry is the big winner for 5.4 thanks to both Riposte and SoB popping on avoids.

    Mastery tends to peter out for DKs since there comes a point (that's different for everyone, and even in between fights) where it just doesn't add much survivability. In that case, might as well go for more DPS.

    @Auk: Assuming Riposte and SoB popping from avoids has been added to the DK module along with player parry haste, do you think you could do a DPS check to see what the values of dodge and parry are relative to crit and haste?
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