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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    Well, Europe has a lot more dedicated heroic raiders, but that's mainly due to the player base being older. People don't have to have second jobs in Europe and they often don't have to have a job while studying, so it's kinda expected for the EU player base to ahead when it comes to raiding.

    Have you ever been to Europe? Since when in America do you have to have a second job?

  2. #22
    It's just a stereotype, them damn Europeans and their socialism, universal healthcare and workers rights. But back on topic this tier has been very hard for 10s to begin with, and US doesn't have the same quality 10 man guilds as the EU, I guess it's still looked down upon somewhat as an inferior and easier raid size. I'm kind of suprised there weren't any changes for 10s after the 1 heal kill actually, I guess they're waiting for more than 10 guilds to kill it.

  3. #23
    My guild had a pretty strong start to the beginning of the tier, but we've hit a couple bumps in the road to slow down our progression, and it's going to slow down our progression for a couple weeks longer than we want it to (partially because of blizzcon, and me going to it with a couple raiders as our GM/RL), so that's definitely one potential reason it may be affecting US guilds.

    My guild is only 11/14H on 10 man, but one thing I have to take into account for with my roster for instance, is that as you all know, the weakest player on a high hc roster vs the strongest's skill gap is pretty huge, and it's no different on our roster. It's not to say anyone is bad in my guild, because I love the players I currently have to death, but that absolutely has an impact. With us only raiding 3 nights a week, and not really prioritizing progression speed as we get our players/roster back in order (which should be this week), it wouldn't really surprise me if other US guilds at the top are also going through the same thing.

    I do think Garrosh 10H looks pretty ridiculous, but I definitely do think that there's something else to it in regards to turnover or individual player ability holding a roster back. It seems to be that it always hits US 10m's the hardest that we may not know about with these guilds, and the culture of the US wouldn't make it surprising to me tbh if that's actually the case for at least one guild ahead of us, whether it's replacing a player, having someone leave/be gkicked unexpectedly, or RL just happening when you least expect it to cause a slow down.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    We don't? Where do I get this free money?
    Not all of Europe of course, but at least every Scandinavian country and many central/eastern European countries.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkovius View Post
    Yeah I totally buy that. We do have a lot of money and spare time when studying IN SWEDEN and depending on the education ofc compared to other countries. Big But, there is still guilds in EU with less or equal Raiding schedule that killed him.

    Irradiated For example. Big ups to them!
    Of course, definitely. Low amount of time invested usually requires dedication outside of raids too though, that has to be considered. I'm sure several of their players dedicate a lot of their spare time outside of the raids to make their tight schedule work as well as it does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Togeshero View Post
    Some stuck up wrong american attitude you got there. Lemme fix that for you.
    I'm not American.

    And I'm sorry that you interpreted it as if every single European didn't have to have a job while studying. I did not intend for it to come out like that.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooliganz View Post
    the same excuse over and over again
    they can get paid vacation and whenever they want to and "We Muricans" can't
    if people in the US need 8-9 raiding hours it doesn't mean that's the same with everybody, in EU i recall the rank #1 on my server during 4.2 got realm first and top 50 EU with 3-4 hour raiding 4-5 days a week and 2 of them have full time jobs and kids, all due respect but you don't have to be a no-lifer to be hardcore it's all about teamwork and skills
    sorry but raiding 4-5 days a week with a full time job and kids is neglecting your wife and kids. think about it honestly. teamwork and skills has nothing to do with it. unless by full time job you mean, working until noon...= /

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooliganz View Post
    the same excuse over and over again
    they can get paid vacation and whenever they want to and "We Muricans" can't
    if people in the US need 8-9 raiding hours it doesn't mean that's the same with everybody, in EU i recall the rank #1 on my server during 4.2 got realm first and top 50 EU with 3-4 hour raiding 4-5 days a week and 2 of them have full time jobs and kids, all due respect but you don't have to be a no-lifer to be hardcore it's all about teamwork and skills
    No, I'm not saying anyone is a no-lifer. I'm simply suggesting a theory that the player base is older per average in Europe due to different cultures.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  7. #27
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by dazie View Post
    Have you ever been to Europe? Since when in America do you have to have a second job?
    I live here and I was born here. You don't have to have a second job in America, it's just that I haven't even heard of anyone having two jobs in the sense some Americans do. We don't have to "work for tips" for instance, our minimum wage in my country is ~$2500 a month for a full time job, which means that you should never have to have two jobs as long as you work half-time unless you _want_ more money. You can survive on less than half the minimum wage, at least here.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  9. #29
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faint^ View Post
    sorry but raiding 4-5 days a week with a full time job and kids is neglecting your wife and kids. think about it honestly. teamwork and skills has nothing to do with it. unless by full time job you mean, working until noon...= /
    That really depends how old the kids are and what your wife is doing, doesn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  10. #30
    Probably because there isn't a real hardcore progression drive behind an American 10m like Paragon and the top 25 mans have.

    But it is exciting to see that its still up for grabs (:

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    That really depends how old the kids are and what your wife is doing, doesn't it?
    if your kids are 19+ and moved out etc then sure. but i think we can both assume most raiders arent above 45+ older you get the less you care about raiding that much. lets say a 9-5 job. you get what an hour to help with kids in morning...not spend time with if your lucky. home at 530...oh shit gotta raid til 10-1030 now, that means skipping supper, any time...people are just plain dumb if they defend this type of raiding while having a wife and kid.

    watch that race to world first video. says it all there

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hooliganz View Post
    the same excuse over and over again
    they can get paid vacation and whenever they want to and "We Muricans" can't
    if people in the US need 8-9 raiding hours it doesn't mean that's the same with everybody, in EU i recall the rank #1 on my server during 4.2 got realm first and top 50 EU with 3-4 hour raiding 4-5 days a week and 2 of them have full time jobs and kids, all due respect but you don't have to be a no-lifer to be hardcore it's all about teamwork and skills
    Anecdotal evidence of an unnamed and therefore unknown example..
    Let's look at a prominent example, of a well known and respected top guild in the world, shall we?
    PARAGON...... From their website, and their FAQ..

    keep in mind, this was written when Cata was current, and World first race for DW kill was on..
    http://www.paragon.fi/articles/paragon-qa-we-answered
    How much time does raiding take during progress?

    rinku: "all of it. For example: the Wednesday our 8d bans were lifted we woke up 5:20am to do half an hour raid before server maintenance and as soon as it ended we woke everyone up again to finish the raid, thus managing to finish one full normal 25man clear for the "ban reset" - shiny 10 minutes before raid lockouts reset. Sadly EU servers were unplayable for most of the day, but our raid day didn't end till 3 to 4 am. "
    So we see, that's not quite what you are saying here..
    Also, it's fairly known amongst those who frequently visit or visited the top guilds websites, how they actually raid... Ensidia too..
    Ensidia had an app requirements list up prior to Cata, which clearly stated how you must be able to basically raid 24/7 up until the World First race is over.
    Most of them falling back to the probably most casual approach once they are done.. Raiding once a week.

    Anyhow....
    College costs an arm and a leg in the US... Students need to work a lot more than EU students have to.
    Regular Jobs.... EU members have shorter work week hours (generally), and the income is normally higher, hence they don't have to work so long, or even take up 2 jobs, unlike many Americans have to.
    On that note, many Americans need the second job also because Americans have a tendency to live off credit cards, buying all kinds of stuff they couldn't afford. EU residents usually don't do that. They spend the money they have, and maybe one or the other smaller loan. That's a general tendency, conditions may vary by country..
    And last but not least, the infrastructure. On a task where every digit point of output matters, the internet speed is a key factor. The infrastructure in the EU generally is way ahead on that end. The US neglected that part brutally. The once leading country on telecommunication and information tech, allowed itself to fall behind by about 10 years in technology. In many rural parts it's even further behind.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by vaccine View Post
    US doesn't have the same quality 10 man guilds as the EU
    To be fair they don't have the same quality 25 man guilds either. So I don't think 10 man being sort of less popular is the reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama
    Not all of Europe of course, but at least every Scandinavian country and many central/eastern European countries.
    Although I find this a little flattering that you think so highly of this part of Europe, this is just not true. Central and eastern Europe (most countries east from Poland, including Poland) don't have ANY economic/social advantage over US. If there are any government handouts they are laughable and only for a small percenage of best students. I don't know where you get your infromation about Europe from but maybe you need to do some reading I don't mean to offend you or anything, just saying...

    Source: I live in Poland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vathral2
    My guild is only 11/14H on 10 man, but one thing I have to take into account for with my roster for instance, is that as you all know, the weakest player on a high hc roster vs the strongest's skill gap is pretty huge, and it's no different on our roster. It's not to say anyone is bad in my guild, because I love the players I currently have to death, but that absolutely has an impact. With us only raiding 3 nights a week, and not really prioritizing progression speed as we get our players/roster back in order (which should be this week), it wouldn't really surprise me if other US guilds at the top are also going through the same thing.
    Maybe that is one of the problems. I was in several heroic raiding guilds (EU) and most of the time when someone was underperforming they were just asked to HS and they would be replaced. Maybe US players have a different mindset, care more about social aspect of the game and don't want to kick someone because they are performing at 80% instead of 100%. But I never played on US servers so this is just a guess, maybe someone who played both US and EU can share their experience I am really curious.

  14. #34
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faint^ View Post
    if your kids are 19+ and moved out etc then sure. but i think we can both assume most raiders arent above 45+ older you get the less you care about raiding that much. lets say a 9-5 job. you get what an hour to help with kids in morning...not spend time with if your lucky. home at 530...oh shit gotta raid til 10-1030 now, that means skipping supper, any time...people are just plain dumb if they defend this type of raiding while having a wife and kid.

    watch that race to world first video. says it all there
    Let's say 40+ (and you will still get some lower), and no I disagree with the relevance of what MOST raiders are. There are plenty enough people who fit that criteria in almost every guild I've been in. Heck in wrath I knew a guild led by a mother, with an officer being her 20-something son. Sure it wasn't super hardcore but it raided heroic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  15. #35
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togeshero View Post
    Some stuck up wrong american attitude you got there. Lemme fix that for you.
    Actually a lot of european students get money from the state while studying - In Denmark for instance you can get as much as 750 euro a month while studying.

    That being said I find it very hard to believe that in a country as big as the US there wouldn't be 10 people that were good enough to play top 10 that could raid as much as some of the eu first guilds.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    So we see, that's not quite what you are saying here..
    Also, it's fairly known amongst those who frequently visit or visited the top guilds websites, how they actually raid... Ensidia too..
    Ensidia had an app requirements list up prior to Cata, which clearly stated how you must be able to basically raid 24/7 up until the World First race is over.
    Most of them falling back to the probably most casual approach once they are done.. Raiding once a week.
    First of all, This is not about world first. There is only a handful of guilds competing for that In each bracket. And yes indeed we have an insane schedule but I managed with a full time 8-17 Job which more or less meant 10 hours AFK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Anyhow....
    College costs an arm and a leg in the US... Students need to work a lot more than EU students have to.
    Regular Jobs.... EU members have shorter work week hours (generally), and the income is normally higher, hence they don't have to work so long, or even take up 2 jobs, unlike many Americans have to.
    On that note, many Americans need the second job also because Americans have a tendency to live off credit cards, buying all kinds of stuff they couldn't afford. EU residents usually don't do that. They spend the money they have, and maybe one or the other smaller loan. That's a general tendency, conditions may vary by country..
    And last but not least, the infrastructure. On a task where every digit point of output matters, the internet speed is a key factor. The infrastructure in the EU generally is way ahead on that end. The US neglected that part brutally. The once leading country on telecommunication and information tech, allowed itself to fall behind by about 10 years in technology. In many rural parts it's even further behind.
    Second, Its about why havent there been ANY US 10 man who killed Garrosh HC yet. I serously doubt that all american 10 mans has this problem that is currently raiding Heroic.

    Third, Your Internets is bad? That is no way a valid reason tbh. The Infrastructure is equally bad in UK for example in most places and they are not alone in EU with that concern.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebubble View Post
    Actually a lot of european students get money from the state while studying - In Denmark for instance you can get as much as 750 euro a month while studying.

    That being said I find it very hard to believe that in a country as big as the US there wouldn't be 10 people that were good enough to play top 10 that could raid as much as some of the eu first guilds.
    That assistance is often means tested though. Which means that if your parents earn more than a very small amount, you aren't getting anything.
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  18. #38
    There is no mystery here. 95% of hardcore progress is how much time you can put in. US 10man guilds just raid a lot less than european ones.
    Last edited by zora; 2013-10-29 at 12:34 PM.
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  19. #39
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkovius View Post
    Second, Its about why havent there been ANY US 10 man who killed Garrosh HC yet. I serously doubt that all american 10 mans has this problem that is currently raiding Heroic.
    I've listed 3 criteria that play a role in how the overall pool on US Players is affected greatly.

    Could there be a top raiding guild in the US? Probably. And that's the moment one of the leading guilds steps out of the shadows of the second tier quality, and tries to assemble the best of the best into one guild. And this is a rather difficult task, given the 4th aspect no one has mentioned so far.
    The vast majority of the EU players lives in a zone where there's only 1 hour time difference max.. Whereas for the USA there's a total of 6 hours time difference..
    As of right now, it is 2:32 AM in Hawaii, and 8:32 AM in New York. Now even if I drop Hawaii, it is still only 4:32 am in Los Angeles.
    The vast amount of the US population lives along the coastal states. Unlike the EU, it is pretty hard for the US to combine players into one fitting schedule.
    The EU has a larger pool available for that.


    Third, Your Internets is bad? That is no way a valid reason tbh. The Infrastructure is equally bad in UK for example in most places and they are not alone in EU with that concern.
    Hence why I said generally, and pointed out how that varies...
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  20. #40
    Some people need to move to europe inn this thread.

    Even inn Denmark, if you live alone inn a cheap part off the country (Cheap rent), you can barely live on the support money any people studing gets. You'll basicly live on a rock. For me personally thats not a problem I think, once I move out...Im cheap anyway, but I doubt all countries inn europe have it like Denmark. So they would have it even harder...?

    Heres a quick budget. I think most people get like 5000 kronor a month or about 900-1000 dollars inn Denmark. Its called "Statens Uddannelsesstøtte"

    2500-3000 kronor for rent. And thats cheap 1 room apartment. If you live inn big cities exspect to pay more. Maybe starts at 3500 kronor.

    500 kronor for cabel + TV + phone, aka media. So no fancy full TV package, or high speed internet. Basic.

    1000 kronor for food, or maybe abit more....1000 is defiantly not much.

    So now you got 1500 kronor left for the rest to live on. That includes I think heating bill, if that aint included inn rent (Aint most just water + electricity, or how does that work?).


    300 dollars to live on each month. That sure aint much. Thats like...Can you afford this steam game, or go to the cinema...thats how little.
    One reason for WoW decline I often hear is that its an old game and naturally people get bored with it. But TV is much older and people still watch that. Surely if a thing you once enjoyed keept staying fun, you would still use it?

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