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  1. #41
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djuntas View Post
    Some people need to move to europe inn this thread.

    Even inn Denmark, if you live alone inn a cheap part off the country (Cheap rent), you can barely live on the support money any people studing gets. You'll basicly live on a rock. For me personally thats not a problem I think, once I move out...Im cheap anyway, but I doubt all countries inn europe have it like Denmark. So they would have it even harder...?

    Heres a quick budget. I think most people get like 5000 kronor a month or about 900-1000 dollars inn Denmark. Its called "Statens Uddannelsesstøtte"

    2500-3000 kronor for rent. And thats cheap 1 room apartment. If you live inn big cities exspect to pay more. Maybe starts at 3500 kronor.

    500 kronor for cabel + TV + phone, aka media. So no fancy full TV package, or high speed internet. Basic.

    1000 kronor for food, or maybe abit more....1000 is defiantly not much.

    So now you got 1500 kronor left for the rest to live on. That includes I think heating bill, if that aint included inn rent (Aint most just water + electricity, or how does that work?).


    300 dollars to live on each month. That sure aint much. Thats like...Can you afford this steam game, or go to the cinema...thats how little.
    Well now, picture your fellow American College Student, who does not get that $1000.00 a month, but instead has to pay that amount per month to actually go to college, and on top he/she has the same expenses.. So they need twice the money you need, unless mama and daddy sponsoring the college costs, which still leaves the average college student to go out and work for their monthly living expenses..
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuntas View Post
    Some people need to move to europe inn this thread.

    Even inn Denmark, if you live alone inn a cheap part off the country (Cheap rent), you can barely live on the support money any people studing gets. You'll basicly live on a rock. For me personally thats not a problem I think, once I move out...Im cheap anyway, but I doubt all countries inn europe have it like Denmark. So they would have it even harder...?

    Heres a quick budget. I think most people get like 5000 kronor a month or about 900-1000 dollars inn Denmark. Its called "Statens Uddannelsesstøtte"

    2500-3000 kronor for rent. And thats cheap 1 room apartment. If you live inn big cities exspect to pay more. Maybe starts at 3500 kronor.

    500 kronor for cabel + TV + phone, aka media. So no fancy full TV package, or high speed internet. Basic.

    1000 kronor for food, or maybe abit more....1000 is defiantly not much.

    So now you got 1500 kronor left for the rest to live on. That includes I think heating bill, if that aint included inn rent (Aint most just water + electricity, or how does that work?).


    300 dollars to live on each month. That sure aint much. Thats like...Can you afford this steam game, or go to the cinema...thats how little.
    In America we borrow a bunch of money and then work a full-time job and come out to around the same spot you're in.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    That assistance is often means tested though. Which means that if your parents earn more than a very small amount, you aren't getting anything.
    Only as long as you live home. But things cost more overall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    In America we borrow a bunch of money and then work a full-time job and come out to around the same spot you're in.
    Indeed.

    The guy that calculated the danish support was being very generous to what things cost. Food alone cost 250-300 € unless you want to strain it. Then it's 200€. Of course you can get lower than that, but you could also just live in a tent on a farm, to save the money from living in a place.

    In other countries they borrow their money to get through it. You can borrow a bit in DK too. But overall you want a job unless you want to struggle with everything economically.
    The amount of money you get as studying is below the limit of the poor. Not that we have such a limit officially, but regardless it is so.
    It's a nice help for sure, but not something you want to live off.

    OT:
    Looks like the ilvl is the same too, so i guess there's just fewer good players in US going for 10man, or because they lag a lot more than we do en europe. At least i'm told they fool around with 200-250ish ms delay against our 40ish.
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  4. #44
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    Us Canadians will have it down soon!



    Hopefully :P


    Also there is more then double the amount of European 10m heroic guilds than North American guilds. The 10m scene is just bigger there.
    Last edited by cyqu; 2013-10-29 at 02:32 PM.
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  5. #45
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Listen guys, it isn't economic. It isn't genetic. It's not education. Has nothing to do with the weather. Its just popular culture. Competitive MMO gaming is more niche in the US than it is in Europe. Doesn't mean one side is better or worse, just different.

    You can believe that, or you can believe that it's all the flouride the government puts in the water making kids suck at videogames so they'll join the military instead.

  6. #46
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    I believe EU does better in raiding because..... they have the best accents! I for one would raid all day all night just to hear their voices
    I, in fact watch the youtube kills just for this reason

    True story!

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  7. #47
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Thats the best reason I've heard.

  8. #48
    Wait. Is this true?

  9. #49
    In the US 25 man raiding is more popular in the hardcore scene. There simply are not as many good and hardcore 10 man US guilds as EU guilds. The top 10 man EU guilds are just that far ahead of the top 10 man US guilds.
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  10. #50
    Best part about Avast being the current top US 10 man at 13/14, is that they are actually an oceanic guild made up primarily of Australian players...

    I knew all the flouride in the water was making me stand in fire. Damn you government mind control!
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  11. #51
    Field Marshal buffmageslol's Avatar
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    1 brez, harder fight for 10m than 25m (hell, even in normal it is too), gear shouldn't be an issue but for instance this past week I was pugging on my alt monk healer and every single boss dropped vanquisher tier, and almost all the other gear dropped was cloth/mail. crappy loot rng for 10m sucks and a lot of stuff gets DE'd all the time. 25m guilds have a lot more popularity in US, arguably taking a lot of the higher caliber players and usually do 4-5 days progression with 15-20hrs per week. im sure a lot of 10m guilds do 4-5 days progression too, but i would guess to say a lot of 10mans have a less intensive progression schedule of maybe 12-15hrs per week.

    just 1 opinion/guess though.

  12. #52
    battle res so overpowered

    Infracted; Post contructively.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-10-31 at 06:18 AM.

  13. #53
    Average work week for citizens of US and two sample EU countries:

    US: 33 hour work week, 16 days off per year (no mandatory vacation time, parental leave, no cap on weekly hours).
    Austria: 30 hour work week, 35 days off per year.
    France: 28 hour work week, 31 days off per year.

    The US is nearly tied for the highest hourly productivity in the world, and US workers put in 20% more work hours than their average EU counterparts- US firms are all about productivity and most don't really value their employees' welfare and happiness over their production. The EU has a cap of 48 hour work weeks- I live in the US, and I don't know a single person with a full-time job who isn't at work for fewer than 40 hours per week, most are 50+ and expected to also do work from home. The Netherlands is already on a standard 4-day work week.

    Europeans have a LOT more time on their hands, which creates better candidates for hardcore raiding. The guys from Method/Paragon can essentially request almost two weeks of vacation every raid tier, raid 16/hours/day for progression, and still have more leftover vacation time than the average American (though Americans do enjoy over 50% more disposable income than the two countries I mentioned).

    Essentially, Americans work a ton, and we are incredibly productive in the workplace, but instead of taking time off and relaxing (or raiding!) like our European counterparts, we just buy a bunch of crap we don't need.

  14. #54
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltopperpete View Post
    Average work week for citizens of US and two sample EU countries:

    US: 33 hour work week, 16 days off per year (no mandatory vacation time, parental leave, no cap on weekly hours).
    Austria: 30 hour work week, 35 days off per year.
    France: 28 hour work week, 31 days off per year.

    The US is nearly tied for the highest hourly productivity in the world, and US workers put in 20% more work hours than their average EU counterparts- US firms are all about productivity and most don't really value their employees' welfare and happiness over their production. The EU has a cap of 48 hour work weeks- I live in the US, and I don't know a single person with a full-time job who isn't at work for fewer than 40 hours per week, most are 50+ and expected to also do work from home. The Netherlands is already on a standard 4-day work week.

    Europeans have a LOT more time on their hands, which creates better candidates for hardcore raiding. The guys from Method/Paragon can essentially request almost two weeks of vacation every raid tier, raid 16/hours/day for progression, and still have more leftover vacation time than the average American (though Americans do enjoy over 50% more disposable income than the two countries I mentioned).

    Essentially, Americans work a ton, and we are incredibly productive in the workplace, but instead of taking time off and relaxing (or raiding!) like our European counterparts, we just buy a bunch of crap we don't need.
    A lot of people where I work do over 50 hour weeks including working from home. UK.

    Why don't we mention it? Because it's very difficult to get another job. Reported hours are not actual hours. I'd assume that is same in US (we don't get paid for the extra hours)
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  15. #55
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Dude all we need is 10 people. Its not work hours. LOL.

  16. #56
    Field Marshal buffmageslol's Avatar
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    to go with that ^ im waiting to start a seasonal, temp job from mid november - end of March here in the US. Expected hours per week are 60-70hrs/week (tax season), monday through saturday. I am a recent college grad and the majority of my friends 1) have 2 part-time jobs to pay of student loans & make rent or 2) work commission-based or service (tips) jobs and put in around 50-70hrs per week also, for basically peanuts being that theyre entry level. These are the lucky ones, i know quite a few who are having problems even finding jobs and might be unemployed or working part time and living at home even with BS and MBA degrees. Of course some have good jobs, engineers & laywers for example making bucco bucks $$ right out of school, but still working 40-50hrs a week minimum.

    but: im sticking with my prior post as to reasons for 10m hc. i dont think jobs have anything to do with it. the players either have time or they dont - clearly the US 25m guilds have found time. i think 25m guilds are more popular and have better access to top notch players. 10m tend to have a more relaxed schedule as mentioned and have the problem of 1brez and crappy rng loot drops which often result is terrible gearing. I did progression on normal garrosh for 10m and 25m back-to-back weeks around 545 ilvl and i can tell you for certain 10m had a much harder time with 2healing and high enough dps to minimize MC & add phases. not saying 1 is harder than the other - they just face different challenges. Currently there are 6 (maybe 7 now?) US 25m guilds with Cutting Edge Garrosh and 0 10mans. out of the West as a whole, ~20 25m and 10 10m. 2:1 ratio of kills.

    just my 2cents.
    Last edited by buffmageslol; 2013-10-29 at 04:44 PM.

  17. #57
    Comes down to time in my opinion. We can blame skill bash regions, and cultures, but thats all pointless. I believe the US PvE playerbase is just getting older--Its this way across all regions, but I believe its hitting the US harder. Many of my friends and my own guild(s) 25 and 10 (im 4/14h 10man) just dont have the time we used to 5 or 6 years ago, when we were in school and could raid for hours upon hours. Where we would raid 5-6 hours at 5 nights during progression is now an endless juggling act around careers and family and is now 3 hours 3-4 nights a week. The longer the raid instance the harder the grind is, and it requires time. Cataclysm for all its faults was actually better in one aspect in my opinion , with 7-10 raid bosses per tier it was perfect for guilds crunched for time. While that may not be enough for super hardcore and skilled guilds, it was more than adequate for the majority of the playerbase.

    Garrosh is no joke on 10 man, its not the end of the world if hes not dead yet. Give it another reset or two, eventually someone will get lucky.

  18. #58
    Why do people go on so much about how US players need to work more etc ?

    The thread is about how there's no US 10-man guild that killed heroic Garrosh. On the other hand, there's six US guilds that killed him on 25-man. So really, it has obviously nothing to do with US players being less hardcore in general and more that hardcore players in the US gravitate towards 25-man a lot more.



    Most of the EU 10-man guilds that killed Garrosh are non-English speaking. In fact, only Inner Sanctum is English speaking. On the other hand a lot of the 25-man guilds are international.

    My guess is that EU 25-man guilds need to be international to have a large enough player pool to draw from, while it's much easier to build a good 10-man roster with people speaking a non-English language. 10-man being more close-knit also leads people to want to speak their own language as they have an easier time communicating in it.

  19. #59
    http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt...57.06%20AM.png

    This is a pretty huge indication of the whole time investment vs progress thing.

    I live in California. I worked 30 hrs a week while getting a degree in Chemical Engineering (still graduated with 30k in debt). After graduation, I picked up a second 20 hour a week position while I applied for career positions relevant to my field. I raided all that time, and still do, for 12 hours a week. 12 measly hours. Once I get a career job, I won't be able to take those vacation days for patch day/week like many people.

    With that argument being said, it is unquestionable that European players mesh together MUCH better than US players, and in general use teamwork more effectively. It's a subtle mentality difference.

    European players, don't feel bad that so many players over here rag on you for having more raid time. I'm JEALOUS. I've actually looked for materials science positions in Germany just so I can get out of this workaholic country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    Most of the EU 10-man guilds that killed Garrosh are non-English speaking. In fact, only Inner Sanctum is English speaking. On the other hand a lot of the 25-man guilds are international.

    My guess is that EU 25-man guilds need to be international to have a large enough player pool to draw from, while it's much easier to build a good 10-man roster with people speaking a non-English language. 10-man being more close-knit also leads people to want to speak their own language as they have an easier time communicating in it.
    That's an excellent observation.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    Most of the EU 10-man guilds that killed Garrosh are non-English speaking. In fact, only Inner Sanctum is English speaking. On the other hand a lot of the 25-man guilds are international.

    My guess is that EU 25-man guilds need to be international to have a large enough player pool to draw from, while it's much easier to build a good 10-man roster with people speaking a non-English language. 10-man being more close-knit also leads people to want to speak their own language as they have an easier time communicating in it.
    What does this have to do with it? U think Americans having problems about talking in their native language? The reason there is a lot of guilds with the same native language is that its easier to express yourself and being more comfortable communicating. You got that point right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltopperpete View Post
    US: 33 hour work week, 16 days off per year (no mandatory vacation time, parental leave, no cap on weekly hours).
    Austria: 30 hour work week, 35 days off per year.
    France: 28 hour work week, 31 days off per year.
    Nice that u mention 2 countries that aint even represented in the 10 man Ladder.. Perhaps there is one or two in inner Sanctum but that info is irrelevant.
    And as a matter of fact I have seen ppl post that kinda incorrect info earlier aswell. Like swedes(my Nationality) is having 35-40 days off each year when there is actually only 25 and that we work for 24 hours per week. GG such bullox.
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