Really though, you think the quality of players in 10 man are just that poor? I would expect someone from EU to say that since it's their chance to shit-talk, but it's dumb if you really think that's true. There's a way smaller pool of people to recruit from (as opposed to EU where they have far more 10 mans) and most of the serious raiders in the US are probably in 25 mans - but that doesn't mean 10 mans have nothing but crappy players.
Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 2/7M; 0/10N
However you CANNOT just discount a disparity in difficulty either. More 25ms in EU have downed it than 10s, and most of those 10s over there are a 7 day raid schedule with several at 8 hours plus per. That is more dedication more than anything else.
Not to discredit Reckoning's accomplishments this tier, but they just downed Garrosh on 25 on a 5 day schedule. Whether they put more time in, I cannot say. Yet I can say their previous tier performance was lackluster. A full month later than the top US 10m guild last tier, even worse than the previous tier. Nightmare Asylum, Avast, Modest have been pretty consistent over the last few tiers at the top of US 10m raiding. I know why NA hasn't downed it due to roster issues this tiers, cannot say why the other two haven't but could be something similar. Or it could be a slight tuning issue as well. Who knows?
something to add to the EU vs US aspect of it. The game is older for many U.S players and newer for many EU players. a lot of those EU groups raiding those crazy schedules are newer to the game and havnt gone through the burnout that most hc raiders go through earlier in their time in the game. like myself that occured when i was new to it back in bc, for others it was lich king. a lot of those EU players werent around back then and eu participation has really ramped up in recent years, so again many of those players simply havnt gone through the burnout, which is why many of the top us 10man are on 4-5 day schedules max and with generally shorter hours.
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Because of language disparity I think EU guilds prefer smaller groups
14/14H SoO <Divinity>
Or how about this: Fewer people care enough to raid at a competitive level in the US than in the EU, and the overwhelming majority of those who do choose to raid in the 25 player format.
This is completely idiotic. You even admit you don't really know the reason for the changes in rankings across tier (it could be a MULTITUDE OF REASONS) but you're leaning towards tuning issue? Things can drastically change across tiers so it's next to impossible to assume changes in rankings without actually talking to the people in those guilds. From your post, it looks like you're just completely talking out your ass about Reckoning and why there is a difference in kill date comparisons between this tier and last tier.Not to discredit Reckoning's accomplishments this tier, but they just downed Garrosh on 25 on a 5 day schedule. Whether they put more time in, I cannot say. Yet I can say their previous tier performance was lackluster. A full month later than the top US 10m guild last tier, even worse than the previous tier. Nightmare Asylum, Avast, Modest have been pretty consistent over the last few tiers at the top of US 10m raiding. I know why NA hasn't downed it due to roster issues this tiers, cannot say why the other two haven't but could be something similar. Or it could be a slight tuning issue as well. Who knows?
I could go on to venture a guess that Reckoning beat every single US 10 man to Sha of Fear in T14 because every US 10 man sucks compared to the US 25 mans but I'd be talking out my ass. Why did Reckoning fall behind in T15? Roster issues? Attendence? Tuning? Who knows? Right guys?
edit - You still also didn't really explain well why 10 v 25 man tuning is a topic worth talking about when the subject is US 10 vs EU 10. Again, How does 25 man tuning have anything to do with why US 10 mans are behind EU 10 mans, like they have been for the entire expansion? It's looking to be just as bad as T14 where the top US 10 man was rank 15 in West rankings.
In tier 15 the only 3 US 10 man guilds in the top 20 western are:
Nightmare Asylum at west 10th
Avast at west 16th
Modest at west 19th
currently there are also exactly 3 US 10 man guilds in the top 20.
you already said NA had roster issues this tier.
there are 13 western 10 man kills of Garrosh, so there is still time for Avast and Modest to maintain their position.
US 10 man guilds have never been able to compete vs Euro 10 man guilds.
Last edited by smile6789; 2013-11-01 at 10:14 PM.
All Hail our EU overlords!
No but seriously, it's a tough fight lots of strat re-tuning is needed for everyone's specific comp. But we're getting there stop pushing us
And this is what makes it so hard, finding 10 good players with the same goals (hardcore/softcore or something inbetwen) who talk your own language aint that hard BUT finding 25 ppl.. Thats another story, just look at Paragon - they didnt find enough ppl to have a full 25 rooster so they had to go down to 10 m raiding if they wanted the same skill level in the guild.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if every single US 10 man guild at the top of the leaderboards are having some sort of issues with getting their raids together to their liking to push the last 3 in a manner they feel is adequate to kill the boss. As I posted before, a lot of it honestly can be a matter of commitments, the timing on the calendar (my guild for instance had 2 mid tier replacements, and blizzcon's going to halt our progression by another week, as I'm one of the raiders going to it, though I'm also our GM/RL and we're just gonna go light this lockout for gear), people having/wanting more and leaving/getting kicked mid tier for whatever reason and the replacing of that lost quality difficult (we fortunately are managing great with our trials), and so on.
It can also be the case of that as much as the US players at the top want to play, if you are raiding an average raid week (12 hours in our case for example, 3d/3.5ish-4h) and you know you aren't going to be as competitive as the top US rosters, some of your members just simply either cannot commit due to RL issues or burnout to having that constant mindset of progression night in and night out (that's why we do normal alt clears for fun once a week, for fun, since it's a game), so getting substantial pulls in is difficult.
Some of those same said raiders just honestly might not care about the ranking as much as others in this thread probably realize. I know our guild (US 37 as of my posting), we could honestly give a hoot about our pace of progression, though we're making great strides on blackfuse, even with the limited # of videos out there as we re-hash our strategy and optimize the comp we'll be using for it, with a full night of pulls coming up tomorrow. Would I love for our guild to finish higher in the rankings? Of course I would lol, any GM who wants his guild raiding at their best does, that rank sits with your guild for months after its all said and done going into the expac. However, is your guild's happiness/enjoyment more valuable than some number? In our case, absolutely. When we manage to kill blackfuse, whether its outgearing or not, and move onwards to Paragons (which we are preparing for strategy wise given the limited information out there to take advantage of), is not something we are too worried about as long as we don't regress and enjoy ourselves.
Even at the top, it wouldn't shock me if that's the case with some others. And I think some players/rosters are okay with that, it wouldn't surprise me at all. If I'm not worried about how much better some guild that I'll never meet due to US/EU barriers are than ours progression wise, and my raiders aren't, then it's not a top priority. We have all the intentions in the world of finishing as high as we can, but we sure as hell won't do it at the cost of player enjoyment.