No US 10 man heroic kills on garrosh?

[antelope591]

The work hours argument is insanely retarded.....whats true is that for whatever reason there are very few hardcore 10 man raiding guilds in US. If you want hardcore raiding you go to 25. The vast majority of 10 man guilds are 2-4 day raiding guilds even during progression, which obviously isn't enough to be 14/14 heroic at this point. There are basically no 6-7 day 10 man raiding guilds that I know of in the US but I might be wrong

[eschatological]

This is all from the viewpoint of an Asian who was born in a former European colony, raised in a European-style household, and is now a citizen of the United States:

Europeans being better at gaming than Americans is not a new thing. I think there's a few reasons why its so prevalent in WoW:

1) Raiding is a team based activity, and Europeans just play better together. Asians are almost a hive mind. America, culturally, has always been strongly individualistic. I've been playing in heroic U.S. guilds, guilds filled with young "typical" Americans are prone to e-peen stroking, shifting blame off themselves, not taking responsibility, not talking things out, etc. I joined a 10 man heroic guild in Firelands that was so much smoother and goal-oriented and was consistently realm first despite our 12 hour raid schedule. A few months in, I wasn't surprised to learn that I was not only NOT the only Asian member of our 10 man roster, but that more than half our roster were minority population players, which have a different cultural outlook. This point may sound like an insult, but it's my observation of American culture as someone who has been immersed in it since I was 3 but resistant to it because of the household my parents ran.

2) Europe takes their leisure more seriously. It sounds like a contradiction in terms, but it's true. In the U.S. there's definitely a predilection for using leisure time to goof off, not really invest in what you're doing, lie around on the beach. I just think Europeans spend their leisure time in general in a more "hardcore" fashion. I honestly think Europeans might just generally have a different definition of what "fun" is.

3) American culture has a strong stigma against video games as a "legitimate" hobby. I don't know why this is, frankly. Maybe because in the 80s and 90s they called us nerds, and Americans don't want to be uncool? Like someone mentioned earlier, I could talk about my fantasy football team for hours and be considered the typical, red-blooded American man, but mention that I play a fantasy MMO-RPG, and I am anathema. The concept of basement-dwelling nerds living with their parents being the only ones who play video games was born in America and still has pretty solid roots here. People are constantly surprised that I'm a lawyer whose main hobby is video games instead of, say, drinking 5 nights out of 7. I think at some point there needs to be a cultural shift about how a whole generation of young professionals has grown up with video games, and they're not something to be hidden away.

[cyqu]

40% more 25man heroic EU guilds than US. EU player base is actually smaller than US. Your argument is invalid.

but the amount of players that raid is not, your argument is invalid.

[Niley]

Another huge difference between Oceania and EU is time difference. To get the best of the best you are spread out across the country and usually to NZ as well. Setting up a raid time when you have time differences of 5hours across your raid group compared to maybe 2 hours in europe is huge.

ugh, I used to go to boarding school in Leeds, UK. I'm polish and for first few years my parents would make me take a bus from cracow to leeds, bus drove through leipzig, amsterdam, london and then to leeds. This trip took nearly 30 hours.
Back to topic, as a European in US now, i much rather prefer to play with EU or Asian players then Americans, I have few top 5 world kills, raided with some awesome people...and most of them were not american. I think its all in the mindset.

[cyqu]

The only reason they're not up there with Garrosh 10 HC dead yet is because either they dont care or they suck.

never thought i'd see you say such a stupid thing.

Another huge difference between Oceania and EU is time difference. To get the best of the best you are spread out across the country and usually to NZ as well. Setting up a raid time when you have time differences of 5hours across your raid group compared to maybe 2 hours in europe is huge.

someone from British Columbia, someone from Newfoundland 4.5 hour difference.

[Deleted]

Just to comment on what @eschatological was saying.
While that sounds kind of racist or stereotypical, I very much doubt that's the intent. In fact many of the things he argues have been well documented or stated by experts in the subject of cultural understanding.

[eschatological]

To be clear, I think my comments are sociological in nature. Culture and how a society or sub-group thinks is not racism, but just the tendencies and behaviors said culture exhibit, backed up in study. Most importantly, those behaviors can be changed/adapted, which is why I'm always pushing my guildies AND my colleagues to a more teamwork-oriented culture.

[Deleted]

40% more 25man heroic EU guilds than US. EU player base is actually smaller than US. Your argument is invalid.

*facepalm*

Because the hardcore player scene is smaller in the US? Look at the 10 to 25 ratio in US and EU

Checking guilds at 12/14H+

EU10: 65
EU25: 69
US10: 14
US25: 28

In EU, 10 and 25 guild ratio is kinda even and in US there are 100% more 25 than 10 man guilds in the top.

[Ailylia]

To be clear, I think my comments are sociological in nature. Culture and how a society or sub-group thinks is not racism, but just the tendencies and behaviors said culture exhibit, backed up in study. Most importantly, those behaviors can be changed/adapted, which is why I'm always pushing my guildies AND my colleagues to a more teamwork-oriented culture.

Well I'm pretty sure if you raided with the 10m team I lead you'd say its teamwork oriented. People are all about the team. Passing loot to others when it makes sense. Working out rotations and working out how to work with each other's abilities, hell, even switching classes when it makes sense for the team. We're based in the US. Well, we do have three Canadians. I know this is anecdotal but just saying yes some people over here do enjoy being on a team and having a team oriented approach.

Why we're not up there with the top guilds? We only raid at most 9 hours a week and sometimes if one of our team members is gonna be out we just cancel the whole day and go do flex. We also have varying skill levels but we never consider booting someone if they aren't pulling good numbers, we just work with them to try and bring their numbers up. We also had someone switch a class (for the good of the raid) and had to gear them up and get them their cloak so we got behind in T16. So to me, the team-oriented approach can sometimes slow you down. But I wouldn't have it any other way cause they are my team and we enjoy the time we spend together, even when wiping.

[eschatological]

Again, cultural statement is cultural. People can, and do, deviate from the "norm," which is what the statement is trying to delineate. But again, Canadian culture is much different than U.S. culture, and even having those 3 members of your 10 man as Canadian can profoundly shift the group dynamic.

Also, what kind of progress does your group enjoy? I think we're talking about top U.S. 10 man progression, in this specific case.

[Deleted]

*facepalm*

Because the hardcore player scene is smaller in the US? Look at the 10 to 25 ratio in US and EU

Checking guilds at 12/14H+

EU10: 65
EU25: 69
US10: 14
US25: 28

In EU, 10 and 25 guild ratio is kinda even and in US there are 100% more 25 than 10 man guilds in the top.

A guild doesn't have to be 12/14 heroic to be "hardcore", from those figures you're just saying last US guilds have managed that progress than the EU guilds.

[Deleted]

A guild doesn't have to be 12/14 heroic to be "hardcore", from those figures you're just saying last US guilds have managed that progress than the EU guilds.

No, but at that level all guilds classify as hardcore, so it is the best sample you can get, and it clearly shows the trend that 66% of the guilds play 25 man whereas it is closer to 50% in the EU.

Or 87.5% of the players in US and 72% of the players in the EU.

While there are hardcore guilds that maybe got less progress than that, there are also casual guilds there aswell, so by drawing the line at 12/14 you limit the sample to 100% hardcore guilds. Also considering how much easier Thok is in 25, it is kinda fair to draw to line after a boss that is difficult in both difficulties.

This thread is about Garrosh HC, so guilds that are at garrosh or close to garrosh is the sample that matters. What sample would you consider to be superior?

[Deleted]

the same excuse over and over again
they can get paid vacation and whenever they want to and "We Muricans" can't
if people in the US need 8-9 raiding hours it doesn't mean that's the same with everybody, in EU i recall the rank #1 on my server during 4.2 got realm first and top 50 EU with 3-4 hour raiding 4-5 days a week and 2 of them have full time jobs and kids, all due respect but you don't have to be a no-lifer to be hardcore it's all about teamwork and skills

You consider this a reasonable schedule? good luck keeping your wife/gf if that's how you think. In the US / Canada this is considered extremely excessive.

[Ailylia]

Yeah we're not hardcore. But the one hardcore team I was on back in cataclysm felt like it was about teamwork, but it was a 25.

I guess the difference between hardcore and casual to me is, well, above hours spent, is the willingness to cut a team member if they just can't perform for some reason. Whereas my team just tries to work around whatever weakness we have and get past it anyway. We'll cross the finish line with all of us, or none of us, sort of thing.

[Wycked]

Having done everything while current on both 10 and 25 since loch king, there has never been an end wing boss that was harder on 10 then 25. Quit griping and get a healer that can solo heal it and zzz to a free kill

[Deleted]

Having done everything while current on both 10 and 25 since loch king, there has never been an end wing boss that was harder on 10 then 25. Quit griping and get a healer that can solo heal it and zzz to a free kill

So you have done Garrosh heroic on both 10 and 25 man then?

[Henriksson]

good luck keeping your wife/gf if that's how you think.

<snip>

- - - Updated - - -

Having done everything while current on both 10 and 25 since loch king, there has never been an end wing boss that was harder on 10 then 25. Quit griping and get a healer that can solo heal it and zzz to a free kill

Your opinion is worth nothing.

Infracted; Post constructively.

[Haloswin]

That's because they're not debating that there isn't a 10 man guild as skilled as some in the EU, they're debating why that is the case.

That's pretty funny. My guild has a fantasy football league. We must be SUPER degenerates.

[Leblue]

Having done everything while current on both 10 and 25 since loch king, there has never been an end wing boss that was harder on 10 then 25. Quit griping and get a healer that can solo heal it and zzz to a free kill

While this is a pretty obvious troll, it should be noted that paragons 10 man heroic kill took about 200 more pulls than either method or blood legion's kills. While some of that obviously could be to toying around with solo or two healing it I hardly doubt that saying solo healing it makes it a "free" kill.

[Squirl]

SOON

/10char

Infracted; Post constructively.