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  1. #1

    What are rogues good at?

    First of, I'm sorry if this have been posted before, but I had some trouble using the search function.

    I'm interested in knowing what makes a rogue desirable, unique and viable in PvE.
    I know they are capable of some pretty decent DPS, but compared to that of other melee DPS they are pretty much on par, if not slightly behind. But these other melee DPS get to chose other specs, whereas the rogue only have three specs that does more or less the same.
    When I rolled a rogue some years ago, I was drawn towards it because of the stealthy thief kind of feel,but was later rather disappointed when I found out that stealth will really only be used as a part of your rotation, and theres never a reason to steal anything.

    So my question is:
    Compared to other melee DPS, what makes this DPS-only class unique?
    As a raidleader, why would you bring a rogue on your team? (Besides being the only class that can use daggers)

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    The Patient
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    Survivability, Survivability and Survivability. Feint and Cloak means that rogues are usually the last to go down in the raid.

    Also in 4-5 target fights the cleave is amazing, and then assassination can do huge aoe to stuff like bats on tortos. (And as you said they do awesome ST damage)

  3. #3
    Survivability, AoE damage reduction on demand.

    Having Cheat Death is nice for learning fights. It sucks that you procced it (because you likely messed something up, or healers were occupied), but it's a blessing that you get a second chance that all other classes except DKs would've died.

    Feint and Elusiveness (same tier as Cheat Death) makes raid AoE laughable for rogues. While Interrupting Jolt on Animus was bringing the entire raid down to their knees, it tickles rogues.

    High mobility with a 70% sprint (100% glylphed) on a 1 minute cooldown. Shadowstep's teleport is available every 24 seconds, but for specific fights that could kill you if you Shadowstep (Thok, Immerseus), Burst of Speed is an on-demand 70% movement increase.

    On Iron Juggernaut, while everyone else gets blown to oblivion during his Siege phase, Rogues completely negate it with a Shadowstep, Cloak of Shadows, Shadowstep.

    And speaking of Cloak of Shadows, it's pretty much a Free Pass on any spell damage you may take every 60 seconds.

    If the entire raid has to be stacked up, Smoke Bomb is now a critical raid cooldown. Raid takes 20% less damage for 5 seconds (7 seconds glyphed). Incredible raid CD, limited only by it's small proximity (8 yard radius).

    Short story even shorter:

    Rogues are incredibly hard to kill in PvE content, and they bring very good DPS, and bring a powerful raid CD.

  4. #4
    There is no reason to specifically bring a Rogue. But there's no reason not to either.

    Nobody will ever say "we can't do this raid, we need a Rogue". Hopefully people don't say "we need a ____" at all anymore though.
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  5. #5
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Nobody will ever say "we can't do this raid, we need a Rogue".
    Rogues we're absolutely required this tier if you wanted to finish competitively. Soaking, survivability and tight DPS (as well as an average raid cd) checks ensured this.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post

    Nobody will ever say "we can't do this raid, we need a Rogue".
    Say that to Method and see what they would reply with.

    To answer your question though:

    High single target & aoe dmg (apart from sub afaik).
    High survivability (feint vs thok hc; feint wins, cloak, evasion, etc.)
    Smoke bomb (raid cd)
    Tricks, ability to stun adds etc, list goes on.

    We've been unable to kill Nazgrim HC without me in the raid, because noone can lock down the mage for as long as I can.
    Last edited by Derpaderp; 2013-10-21 at 12:12 AM.

  7. #7
    No certain dps class is really needed in any raid, Blizzard has been working against that for a while now. They are fast paced and do substantial aoe damage.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Blitzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lebowsk View Post
    I'm interested in knowing what makes a rogue desirable, unique and viable in PvE.
    Thanks in advance.
    All KINDS a cc. Blind, Gouge, Sap, Cheap Shot, poison stun, kidney shot
    A lot of passive healing
    Able to negate mechanics with Smokebomb
    Avoiding mechanics with stealth
    Able to cloak off most if not all magic mechanics - Able to take mechanics that would normally require a group, alone.
    3 variable specs whereas other melee classes are subject to 1 (Warriors being the exception)
    Reasonable "easy" rotation in all specs.
    Able to have 100% avoidance for a time.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpaderp View Post
    Say that to Method and see what they would reply with.

    To answer your question though:

    High single target & aoe dmg (apart from sub afaik).
    High survivability (feint vs thok hc; feint wins, cloak, evasion, etc.)
    Smoke bomb (raid cd)
    Tricks, ability to stun adds etc, list goes on.

    We've been unable to kill Nazgrim HC without me in the raid, because noone can lock down the mage for as long as I can.
    As far as control is concerned, rogues are absolutely fantastic.

    I almost solo manage Arcweavers in our Nazgrim HC 25 as Combat. I'm generally over 20+% of their damage done as well, the rest of the raid is usually around 5% total damage done to them, just via spreading dots/random cleave.

    We're an extremely strong class right now through control, survivability, and damage.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Hopefully people don't say "we need a ____" at all anymore though.
    Tank/healer? All the damn time. This is a lot less important in 25m because you're going to have melee hybrids in the raid too and they can fill in. If you're talking about a pretty fixed 10m comp though, having some one that can tank or heal for fights where trading dps isn't a big deal is pretty huge.

    I'm not saying we're in a bad spot or anything. I think with smoke bomb we're actually in a really strong spot in terms of personal survivability, personal dps, and raid defensive cooldown. I just think you're treating something as trivial which isn't necessarily trivial.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire
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    aoe w/ feint, magic damage w/ cloak w/ its 1 minute cd and smoke bomb which reduces by 20% all damage taken while in it.

  12. #12
    Thanks a lot for the replies. I've been rejected from quite a few guilds and raids because noone (atleast on my server) seems to be taking rogues in, and this thread really boosts my confidence. You've made some good points I might bring up next time I'll apply for a raid/guild.

  13. #13
    Could be that they are full on rogues. In a 10 man 1 rogue is enough. In 25s 3 seems to be the maximum most guilds run.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sicktight View Post
    Could be that they are full on rogues. In a 10 man 1 rogue is enough. In 25s 3 seems to be the maximum most guilds run.
    Yeah that's possible, but certainly not always the case "Sorry full on melee DPS" is something I get a lot. And it's kind of annoying when I can't change to another spec like other melee dps.
    But hey, I shouldn't be complaining about that here.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzo View Post
    All KINDS a cc. Blind, Gouge, Sap, Cheap Shot, poison stun, kidney shot
    A lot of passive healing
    Able to negate mechanics with Smokebomb
    Avoiding mechanics with stealth
    Able to cloak off most if not all magic mechanics - Able to take mechanics that would normally require a group, alone.
    3 variable specs whereas other melee classes are subject to 1 (Warriors being the exception)
    Reasonable "easy" rotation in all specs.
    Able to have 100% avoidance for a time.
    Bold parts = no.

    Passive healing, even if with Recuperate (not passive healing) and Leeching Poison (which would cripple a rogues' ability to soak most abilities due to not having Elusiveness) rogue healing is fairly negligible. Our Enhancement Shaman heals probably one-hundred times as much as I ever do, if not more.

    Smoke Bomb is a good raid CD but it doesn't allow the raid to entirely negate mechanics.

    How does a rogue avoid mechanics with Stealth? No idea what this one is about.

    Easy rotation... Assassination is fairly easy, yes. Most rogues prob don't pool energy and watch their Envenom buff to not clip it but the difference is negligible anyway. The difference between a good Combat or Sub rogue versus a mediocre Combat or Sub rogue is very noticeable however. I very highly doubt Combat or Subtlety are any easier than most other DPS specs of other classes (especially Sub). From my own experience, Sub is probably the most difficult rotation of the DPS classes I've played through MoP (though it is still significantly easier than it was).

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    Bold parts = no.

    Passive healing, even if with Recuperate (not passive healing) and Leeching Poison (which would cripple a rogues' ability to soak most abilities due to not having Elusiveness) rogue healing is fairly negligible. Our Enhancement Shaman heals probably one-hundred times as much as I ever do, if not more.

    Smoke Bomb is a good raid CD but it doesn't allow the raid to entirely negate mechanics.

    How does a rogue avoid mechanics with Stealth? No idea what this one is about.

    Easy rotation... Assassination is fairly easy, yes. Most rogues prob don't pool energy and watch their Envenom buff to not clip it but the difference is negligible anyway. The difference between a good Combat or Sub rogue versus a mediocre Combat or Sub rogue is very noticeable however. I very highly doubt Combat or Subtlety are any easier than most other DPS specs of other classes (especially Sub). From my own experience, Sub is probably the most difficult rotation of the DPS classes I've played through MoP (though it is still significantly easier than it was).
    Smoke bomb allowed you to negate a mechanic on ToT council. Vanish allows you to reset Thoks fixate. Vanish might even work on the orb things in Galakras phase 2. I've heard also that smoke bomb works to avoid orbs in Galakras phase 3 but have not tried myself. This is just off the top of my head. So yes these two abilities do allow you to negate some raid mechanics to a degree.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Escapes View Post
    Vanish allows you to reset Thoks fixate. .
    It also works on the fixate on protectors,

    but both of these are not great ideas.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    Smoke Bomb is a good raid CD but it doesn't allow the raid to entirely negate mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Escapes View Post
    Smoke bomb allowed you to negate a mechanic on ToT council. Vanish allows you to reset Thoks fixate. Vanish might even work on the orb things in Galakras phase 2. I've heard also that smoke bomb works to avoid orbs in Galakras phase 3 but have not tried myself. This is just off the top of my head. So yes these two abilities do allow you to negate some raid mechanics to a degree.
    For a while , you could Smoke Bomb Lei Shen himself and he wouldn't even cast the Bouncing Bolts. This was fight-breaking, and was never something we had to utilize to kill Lei Shen. It was hotfixed shortly after it was discovered by the general population (although it was behaving exactly how it should, with an enemy within Smoke Bomb being unable to cast to things outside of the Smoke).

    It was extremely awkward that it worked the same way on Troll Council, a fight within the exact same instance, but that was allowed to stay in. Presumably because it wasn't the final boss.

    I understand why it was fixed, and agree that it needed to be fixed, but Blizzard needs to be more clear about what mob/boss abilities are allowed to be avoided due to Smoke Bomb.
    Last edited by Daltin; 2013-10-21 at 10:42 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    Smoke Bomb is a good raid CD but it doesn't allow the raid to entirely negate mechanics.
    Smoke bomb prevents galakras fire dot from being applied. Smoke bomb prevents larges from the mantid side on spoils of pandaria from damaging anyone outside the bomb. That's two mechanics in SoO only. Gara'jal adds couldn't target people inside smokebombs either and you could prevent frostbites from getting out on council in tot. Yes, it can negate mechanics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rayanne View Post
    It also works on the fixate on protectors,

    but both of these are not great ideas.
    Resetting thok fixate can actually be beneficial as long as you let your raid know beforehand. A rogue getting fixated can easily recover your phase positioning from a double fixate / person screwing up.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by lebowsk View Post
    Yeah that's possible, but certainly not always the case "Sorry full on melee DPS" is something I get a lot. And it's kind of annoying when I can't change to another spec like other melee dps.
    But hey, I shouldn't be complaining about that here.
    Well, I don't know if thats a rogue thing. Afaik most 10m groups take less melee than ranged. I certainly do when I make guild 10ms to finish up stuff, and since I'm a rogue that means I usually only take 1 other melee.

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