Thread: Balance

  1. #1

    Balance

    Ghost Crawler has stated several times that the classes are not meant to be balanced. He has also stated X class is meeting their target DPS.

    Putting the two together it is reasonable to assume they have target dps for each class and they have decided in at least a rough way the order the classes will fall on the dps charts.

    He also stated that having all classes do the same dps would not be fun and I don't know where he gets this. It is not coming from most players. Skill should determine the dps breakdown not GC and team. What is not fun is playing a Shadow Priest and knowing you are not going to beat half the classes giving equal skill.

    If that is the way they think it should be, the least they could do is give their class target goals so players can make an informed decision when selecting a class. We already know mages and warlocks are at or near the top.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    There is always a top and always a bottom dps. The goal is that the spread between the top and bottom dps is very small - within a few %. It isn't that they specifically said "we have to mages at the top" it's that they want all melee to fall within in a certain range of each other and have melee comparable to ranged.



  3. #3
    Pit Lord Lei Shi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    There is always a top and always a bottom dps. The goal is that the spread between the top and bottom dps is very small - within a few %. It isn't that they specifically said "we have to mages at the top" it's that they want all melee to fall within in a certain range of each other and have melee comparable to ranged.
    I don't think you can call a spread of over 50% small, the gap between the bottom and top dps spec in any given patch.

  4. #4
    Pit Lord Lemposs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    I don't think you can call a spread of over 50% small, the gap between the bottom and top dps spec in any given patch.
    Only within a couple of seconds of DPS is that ever true. Look at it from a 1 minut or 5 minut time period most classes (that are equally geared) will dish out very equal damage. Of course you need classes that have huge burst and classes that do a very steady amount of damage. And even then you have classes that do fall outside the top DPS but they are often less squishy or have more tools to CC or something completly different.

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    I don't think you can call a spread of over 50% small, the gap between the bottom and top dps spec in any given patch.
    Every class operates differently depending on the fight. Also, I said it is the goal, just not necessarily how it ends up functioning. There are unintended effects of gear scaling (like DW frost this patch scaling considerably better than 2H or UH) or buffs in fights that interact in ways not expected.



  6. #6
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    balance is dynamic
    it can never be ultimately achieved it can only be approached through constant movement

    it's rather comparable to the Red Queen Hypothesis
    .


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  7. #7
    Brewmaster Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sithral View Post
    Ghost Crawler has stated several times that the classes are not meant to be balanced. He has also stated X class is meeting their target DPS.

    Putting the two together it is reasonable to assume they have target dps for each class and...
    Not necessarily. It could be just a generic target DPS number that everyone has to beat. The fact that some do better than others doesn't change the fact that each needs to be viable by hitting that number. A class that is lower than the others, but capable of doing the job, is acceptable.

    But I wouldn't be surprised if you were right, either.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord
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    Try balancing every class and spec for every encounter and situation.

    The difference in DPS disparity is NOTHING compared to what it used to be, and definitely isn't 50% except in extreme circumstances

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sithral View Post
    Ghost Crawler has stated several times that the classes are not meant to be balanced. He has also stated X class is meeting their target DPS.

    Putting the two together it is reasonable to assume they have target dps for each class and they have decided in at least a rough way the order the classes will fall on the dps charts.

    He also stated that having all classes do the same dps would not be fun and I don't know where he gets this. It is not coming from most players. Skill should determine the dps breakdown not GC and team. What is not fun is playing a Shadow Priest and knowing you are not going to beat half the classes giving equal skill.

    If that is the way they think it should be, the least they could do is give their class target goals so players can make an informed decision when selecting a class. We already know mages and warlocks are at or near the top.
    Honestly, I've seen mages struggling this patch. Our mage will tear it up one fight, then just be meh the next. He's good, but when I see discrepancies between classes occurring, it's usually minor. Our best players are still our top DPS. We still have a few players who Warlocks/Monks (supposed top DPS for their gear) who don't compete with me, a balance druid, which is supposed to be on of the weaker DPS this tier.

    The differences between classes also show up differently based on the fight. Our Spriest will wreck a bitch on Malkorok because she just sits there and free casts, but on juggernaut she can't do anything during P2 (Heroic mode) so she loses a minute of DPS. Our ele shaman does decent single target, but he destroys Garrosh phase 1 and Galakras. As a boomkin on Dark Shamans I ruin everyone on the pull, and on basically any fight where I can let dots just tick on a target.

    Blizzards target right now is for some classes/specs to tear up single target, but be meh at multi target. Some classes/spec will kill it on AoE like galakras, but do meh single target. Some will do good on multi target fights that aren't really enough targets for AoE, but their single target is just okay. In addition some classes will be amazing on fights where they stand still and pew pew, and suck on movement fights. Others will do well on movement, not losing much damage, but their standing DPS isn't much better.
    Arms Warrior versus Fury Warrior right now. One cleaves awesome, the other don't. Combat Rogue versus Ass Rogue. Same story.

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  10. #10
    They way blizzard does things is gives classes time to shine rather than balancing every dps spec with each other. Although I believe pure dps specs should have some sort of upperhand when it comes to dps albeit it being a small one.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Every class operates differently depending on the fight. Also, I said it is the goal, just not necessarily how it ends up functioning. There are unintended effects of gear scaling (like DW frost this patch scaling considerably better than 2H or UH) or buffs in fights that interact in ways not expected.
    Not to mention the massive ilvl inflation making balance far more difficult. It's easier to balance specs when there's lower numbers to work with but when you have specs like Affliction, Demonology, and Fire who can double or triple dip off their stats, it's no wonder Blizzard has to keep nerfing them hard to keep them in line.

    Give us Wrath numbers with the current balance philosophies and the game would be very well balanced. Stat inflation is just working against them.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    I don't think you can call a spread of over 50% small, the gap between the bottom and top dps spec in any given patch.
    Even if that's true you're probably comparing two outliers. One spec overperforms, one spec underperforms, the rest trend somewhere in the middle. I would suggest probably too the underperforming class has a spec that works well, like Hunters, MM is horrible for PvE but they can go SV or BM which is fine.

  13. #13
    so as of 5.4 what's the dps pecking order then iyo?

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    so as of 5.4 what's the dps pecking order then iyo?
    If all you did was look at this chart: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...10100000000000 (10m Normal parses, best spec for each class only) You could pretty much come to the conclusion that affliction warlocks were way OP and that melee (except for enhance shamans and rogues) are crap.

    However overall charts are probably fairly biased because you get one good/bad fight and your numbers go out of whack.

    If you click through all the individual encounters you notice that the classes jump all around. Sha of Pride for example Warriors and Rogues top the charts. On Thok, hunters take the lead.

    You also have to know the individual fights to know -why- the numbers look like they do. Hunters on Thok are the only class that can ignore the big aoe interrupt during phase 1 and continue to DPS the boss with their full rotation during the chase phase 2.

    And sometimes the numbers are skewed. Fire mages look REALLY good on Klaxxi, but that's because they're damaging all three bosses. They're doing this to increase their single target damage to the main target, but the splash damage adds up, even though damage done to the off-targets is worthless in terms of actually winning the encounter.

    Are there some trends of underperforming/overperforming classes? Of course. But its hard to just look at charts and say "Gee Arms warriors are really really bad" without fully understanding the class and how it works and how it interacts with the fights, and what it brings to the raid.

  15. #15
    Warchief Redpanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailyara View Post
    If all you did was look at this chart: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...10100000000000 (10m Normal parses, best spec for each class only) You could pretty much come to the conclusion that affliction warlocks were way OP and that melee (except for enhance shamans and rogues) are crap.

    However overall charts are probably fairly biased because you get one good/bad fight and your numbers go out of whack.

    If you click through all the individual encounters you notice that the classes jump all around. Sha of Pride for example Warriors and Rogues top the charts. On Thok, hunters take the lead.

    You also have to know the individual fights to know -why- the numbers look like they do. Hunters on Thok are the only class that can ignore the big aoe interrupt during phase 1 and continue to DPS the boss with their full rotation during the chase phase 2.

    And sometimes the numbers are skewed. Fire mages look REALLY good on Klaxxi, but that's because they're damaging all three bosses. They're doing this to increase their single target damage to the main target, but the splash damage adds up, even though damage done to the off-targets is worthless in terms of actually winning the encounter.

    Are there some trends of underperforming/overperforming classes? Of course. But its hard to just look at charts and say "Gee Arms warriors are really really bad" without fully understanding the class and how it works and how it interacts with the fights, and what it brings to the raid.
    if i could +rep, give points, w/e you would have all of mine. Alot of people dont take things on a fight to fight basis when comparing classes then you see. nerf this buff that posts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
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