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  1. #21
    Bicker all you guys want about defining lore, but fact of the matter is for a long standing franchise, the entire basis for this expansion was something that was an Easter egg.

    Now it is a nice expansion, I'm not going to whine about kingfu panda and children. However, for a long standing franchise it is odd o go off of only the fact that something exists, somewhere. That was 100% of it. Outside of HumansvsOrcs, at least some of the history (happy now? I'll call it history) was present. Character, places, all that good stuff. But we had just 1 for this expansion. Chen Stormstout.

    For a series they should have at least had more.

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Cataclysm is far under appreciated bexause people don't know their Lore, and some of Blizzards promises fell through. Also the baddie exodus (not sure how this is a player issue more of a shareholder one)
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Cataclysm made sense. It also adds Wrathion as a major player. But we could have and IMO should have done Island Hopping expansion. I'm sure hidden somewhere (perhaps under Kezhan?) there could be Titan power. Or perhaps lingering effects at the maelstrom of Old God stuff.

    Just my 2cents.
    The problem with Cata wasn't it's place in lore, or even how lore and story was handled in the game (although I think both, and particularly Deathwing could have been used far better), it's that it's gameplay kinda sucked. Less endgame than MoP, some very weak raids including the awful DS, and a general feeling of disconnectedness all hurt it.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Cataclysm is far under appreciated bexause people don't know their Lore
    Cataclysm wasn't underappreciated at all. It's rightly lambasted because it was the worst expansion thus far. And the lore itself had nothing to do with that.
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  4. #24
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    People whine about both of them too much.

    I had fun on Cata. What I didn't like is it getting rushed for a holiday release and cutting a bunch of content, after spending an inordinate amount of time on stupid crap for the goblins that you'll never see again. I mean, how much dev time went into that car you use at the start anyways? Or that pointless resort in Azshara?

    MoP is almost a masterstroke. Almost. But they decided not to put in any new 5 man dungeons, and that is the thing I dislike about it the most.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Bicker all you guys want about defining lore, but fact of the matter is for a long standing franchise, the entire basis for this expansion was something that was an Easter egg.

    Now it is a nice expansion, I'm not going to whine about kingfu panda and children. However, for a long standing franchise it is odd o go off of only the fact that something exists, somewhere. That was 100% of it. Outside of HumansvsOrcs, at least some of the history (happy now? I'll call it history) was present. Character, places, all that good stuff. But we had just 1 for this expansion. Chen Stormstout.

    For a series they should have at least had more.
    You're right for the most part, there wasn't and real anything for the Pandaren outside of Chen, but as I pointed out they are running out of Lore to use. They NEEDED MoP to show they can make up new stuff and not just new stuff, ALOT of new stuff. You even said it, it is a nice expansion so they succeeded. They took one Pandaren and from there made MoP. That is amazing to me and did a fairly good job. They can use what lore they made up in MoP and the lessons they learned and apply it to to future expansions. I think from this point on we might not see a MoP type expansion where there is just one thing that inspires the expansion, but little things because MoP added a lot more new lore that can be possibly used in the future.

  6. #26
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    I thought they did pretty well with the Tol'vir and Al'Akir side of Uldum...the German person and Indiana Jones part was kind of meh..
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  7. #27
    Over 9000! Gheld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Lorewise, if they wanted to work up to a war between the factions, they did a pretty terrible job. They had the Horde antagonize the Alliance in a way that even a lot of Horde people disliked, then had that part of the Horde become and NPC faction to be put down.

    To have an actual, ongoing war between the factions, it absolutely would have been better to have Vol'Jin in charge... and then have actual reasons for the war. By having a hot-headed warmonger in charge, they don't need to bother with real reasons for the war... but that also makes the war seem wasteful, like an excuse to keep the PvP theme going instead of an actual development within the game world.

    And even if the time period of the Cataclysm was needed to rework the game world (for the purposes of updating old world) and to give time for the situation between the factions to develop, that is still no excuse for the lack of high level content or the complete butchering of the story (Seriously, we resolved the Deathwing storyline by means of time traveling deus ex machina?).

    I liked the idea of MoP a lot, but ToT was very random and brought in too many ideas... and felt like a filler to give time for the situation with Garrosh to develop, rather than a real story in its own right. I also would have loved to see the Sha as something other than remnants of an old god, as well as seeing the mantid develop as more of a threat in their own right, but the ideas there were still pretty sound. I don't even fault MoP for its strong Asian theme, because every expansion has had a pretty strong, singular theme that ran throughout the entire expansion, with occasional breaks here and there. MoP was no different, it just chose a different theme to run with.


    *shrug* Deathwing destroyed resources, ostensibly to force the factions into conflict. How much more awesome would it have been if Deathwing wasn't just some random old god puppet? If there were people in both factions trying to solve the situation, but deathwing and his agents kept disrupting all attempts? New farms are razed to the ground, droughts starve the land, monster dens are destroyed forcing the gnolls/centaurs/murlocs/etc of the world closer to civilization... all while both sides slowly realize that there may not be enough resources left to sustain both the Alliance and the Horde. Throw in some political intrigue, and you've got all the motivation you need for an entire expansion. No need for old gods, the Twilight Cult, or time travel, just make Deathwing actually intelligent. Or at least, that's what I would have liked... I'm sure lots of people will disagree :-P
    I agree completely about Deathwing. He had so much potential as a villain, but it was just completely wasted. I think they built him up too powerful in the lore and couldn't come up with a compelling way to defeat him.

  8. #28
    I think Cata was a necessary expansion, MoP however is a model expansion. If it weren't for my longstanding attachment to Wrath (which is basically because it was the capstone on a large amount of Warcraft 3 lore), I'd have no qualms pronouncing it the best expansion ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Cataclysm is far under appreciated bexause people don't know their Lore, and some of Blizzards promises fell through.
    And because a lot of them only play their max level toons and didn't go back and do the revamped quest zones. I personally got my money's worth out of Silverpine and Hillsbrad alone, before Cata itself even launched.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Bicker all you guys want about defining lore, but fact of the matter is for a long standing franchise, the entire basis for this expansion was something that was an Easter egg.

    Now it is a nice expansion, I'm not going to whine about kingfu panda and children. However, for a long standing franchise it is odd o go off of only the fact that something exists, somewhere. That was 100% of it. Outside of HumansvsOrcs, at least some of the history (happy now? I'll call it history) was present. Character, places, all that good stuff. But we had just 1 for this expansion. Chen Stormstout.

    For a series they should have at least had more.
    Yeah, just go ahead and ignore all the Old God and Titan lore explored in MoP

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    I liked the idea of MoP a lot, but ToT was very random and brought in too many ideas... and felt like a filler to give time for the situation with Garrosh to develop, rather than a real story in its own right.
    Was a story in its own right if you did all the Kun-Lai quests and other Mogu-related plotlines. And read your Arch journal entries :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Bicker all you guys want about defining lore, but fact of the matter is for a long standing franchise, the entire basis for this expansion was something that was an Easter egg.

    Now it is a nice expansion, I'm not going to whine about kingfu panda and children. However, for a long standing franchise it is odd o go off of only the fact that something exists, somewhere. That was 100% of it. Outside of HumansvsOrcs, at least some of the history (happy now? I'll call it history) was present. Character, places, all that good stuff. But we had just 1 for this expansion. Chen Stormstout.

    For a series they should have at least had more.
    We've already covered every other aspect of Warcraft lore apart from leftover junk and crap from the books. And fighting the Old Gods and Legion another hundred times.

    They have to make new lore sooner or later, or just turn off the franchise and never make anything in the Warcraft universe ever again.

    P.S. I'm happy to have Chen Stormstout for another 10 expansions ^_^

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    Always interesting to read carefully crafted dissections of what seemed like dumb ideas.
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  12. #32
    The horde and alliance got some resources from Krasarang Wilds from a very small encampment on both sides. But they got every single resource needed for the actual war from northern barrens, which actually makes the last two expansions meaningless in that terms doesn't it?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by heath1056 View Post
    cut
    no the alliance/horde war wasn't needed at all, considering how much lore could be squeezed from the burning legion (2 new planets at last) Azshara, Old Gods, Titans and even the Zandalari plots; Cataclism lore was poor they take Deathwing out of the fridge (was pratically dead) and even the Dragon Soul (that was destroyed this is why we go back in time to recover it). Pandaren could be endled like any other race introduced with a cool starting zone not an entire continent and one x pack.
    Blizzard chose to make 2 filler xpack and i still don't get why it happen.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Toiran View Post
    That makes it worse than other expansions how?

    So, because lore is new, it's automatically bad? Or worse than previous lore?

    90% of all future WoW expansions are going to suck for you my friend.

    I enjoyed MoP, and it's Lore, more than any other expansion, and I'm a big, big TBC nostalgic.
    It was worse because it was based on nearly nothing and mostly pulled out of their asses when they had plenty of stories to develop or finish. On the other hand the storytelling was a massive improvement over previous expansions.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    It was worse because it was based on nearly nothing and mostly pulled out of their asses when they had plenty of stories to develop or finish. On the other hand the storytelling was a massive improvement over previous expansions.
    It doesn't have to be based on something to be good. Blizzard pulled a lot of things out of their asses in WC3 such as the scourge,NE.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Some stories are planned out from beginning to end instead of just rewritten constantly to suit the needs to the latest audience.

    The gate to Uldum for example, had arrows fired into it as if someone was trying to stop something from escaping.

    Blizzard obviously had something in mind for that zone in vanilla, but it was cut and replaced with a parody of Indiana Jones.
    This is a very good post. It reminds me of standard national television companies and their respective TV shows. For comparison sake, let us current Warcraft be analogous to a show like Lost, where it was evident by the typical 25 episode season platform, that they would simply create drama (e.g. kill a character) whenever their filler episodes repulsed viewers. Unfortunately, it is apparent that Warcraft isn't premium cable material.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    They had the Horde antagonize the Alliance in a way that even a lot of Horde people disliked, then had that part of the Horde become and NPC faction to be put down.

    To have an actual, ongoing war between the factions, it absolutely would have been better to have Vol'Jin in charge... and then have actual reasons for the war. By having a hot-headed warmonger in charge, they don't need to bother with real reasons for the war... but that also makes the war seem wasteful, like an excuse to keep the PvP theme going instead of an actual development within the game world.
    I never understood this logic. The game is called Warcraft. It use to be and still is orcs versus humans. Prior to Cataclysm, you were told of the opposing factions supposed treachery and when you queued up to go to the battlements, you were given a background on why. So, exactly what is missing? The Horde and Alliance were always at war, yet, Hellscream was coined a warmonger even in WotLK by a huge majority of posters. This is perhaps why roleplaying on roleplaying servers is atrocious. People roleplay as level headed intellectuals in what is apparently a very dire time.

  17. #37
    Stood in the Fire xcureanddisease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Not sure if neccessary but MoP is better than previous xpacs especially on lore side.
    Ahh no. I have to disagree. UNDEAD Paladins made more sense. They twisted the lore around like a pretzel to make pandas possible.

  18. #38
    Epic! Bosbeer's Avatar
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    I guess they were necesarry.
    Cata would've been an awesome expansion if not for development issues and scrappings.
    MoP needed to make the game go back on track.
    The worst thing they did imo, after the failure that was Cataclysm they should've not gone with Pandaria, that is were the biggest fault lies.
    After an already unstable xpac they decided to go for "Pandaland", which made some people lose faith in WoW.

  19. #39
    Epic! Felarion's Avatar
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    Well cataclysm concept sounds great. Thing is it was poorly handled and looked like they run out of ideas at some point, not to mention some lorelol.

  20. #40
    MoP was a massive misstep for Blizzard. They should never have made an expansion based on such an irrelevant race. Some unit in the RTS game and Chen running about? That was an insane choice for an expansion after how poorly received Cataclysm was. When they saw that millions of people left the game they should have pulled out the big guns. That was the time for the Legion expansion.

    Some insignificant race on and island that no one knew or cared about for how many thousands of years? Now millions more people have left they will see that gamble did not pay off. They have to bring it big time with this next one.
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