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  1. #221
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    In so far as rep grinding is concerned I think the answer is to bring back the tabard but make it universal. Do whatever you want for rep. Go fish for rep. Go daily for rep. Go dungeon for rep.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Well then you can understand why casual players left. They weren't getting anything new out of it because raid content wasn't something they really enjoyed or cared for anyway.
    You're making a tremendous assumption to claim that "casuals" were content to just kill the same bosses over and over again. Maybe, after doing that for so long and getting nowhere, they got tired of it, or felt that, after having experienced raids in WotLK, the whole "killing the same dungeon bosses for no reason" suddenly wasn't going to cut it.

    I mean it's fine for you to say it cost them 15 bucks a month but yea that's the point. For casual players killing an easy boss is fine because well they're casual. They don't want to put up with to much bs either because it's difficult or because it's time consuming (which has the same net effect if your bad at killing bosses). Properly understood the complaint from cataclysm was not so much that bosses were hard it was more that my time is being wasted here and I'm getting nothing or very little out of this experience.
    Except you could very easily have killed the NORMAL max level dungeon bosses... yeah, again, that didn't cut it. The exact same activities were available; to claim that suddenly people couldn't just "mindlessly kill things for 'fun'" is completely untrue. That's untrue now.

    It just gets old after a while, among the myriad of factors you're also ignoring.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
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  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In so far as rep grinding is concerned I think the answer is to bring back the tabard but make it universal. Do whatever you want for rep. Go fish for rep. Go daily for rep. Go dungeon for rep.
    That's what seems to have happened to some extent for Lesser Coins.

  4. #224
    In WotLK players were upset, that there was a split between normal and heroic. Some players argued, that raids should always be hard, there shouldn't be an easy version of it, and if players weren't good enough, they should get better and not get things handed to them. A lot of people, a lot of heroic raiders anyway, claimed that normal mode raiders aren't real raiders, and normal mode raiding isn't real raiding. Heroic raiders said, that when you defeat a boss on normal mode, where it's easy, it's doesn't feel that special anymore if you later defeat him on heroic.

    The conversation has shifted from "normal vs. heroic raiding" to "LFR vs. the rest", and the arguments are the same. If they ever remove LFR, which they won't, the conversation would shift to "Flex is too easy, remove it", and if they remove it, it would be back at "normal raiding is too easy". And on top of that, tons of players will be unhappy, because you've taken their raiding experience away from them.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    That's what seems to have happened to some extent for Lesser Coins.
    The majority of people bitching about lesser charms early on were the ones complaining their in-game time was too valuable for such lowly activities.

    They're easy as all get out to get on the timeless isle. I probably have enough to last me to the next expansion, and that's from passively just doing the timeless isle stuff. They might as well just lump in a weekly quest to give you the charms for free now.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    You're making a tremendous assumption to claim that "casuals" were content to just kill the same bosses over and over again. Maybe, after doing that for so long and getting nowhere, they got tired of it, or felt that, after having experienced raids in WotLK, the whole "killing the same dungeon bosses for no reason" suddenly wasn't going to cut it.
    In wotlk they didn't get nowhere. They literally bought raid gear with it. Now that's kind of out the window because well you can't do that anymore. You have to suffer through actual rng and not ya know win anything for your efforts unless some computer program somewhere determines you did. For them the sheer act of acquiring gear IS getting somewhere. That's not to say they never pugged an icc here and there but it wasn't the staple of the gaming diet that it's become in mists.

    Actually lots of them did kill the normal level dungeons but guess what? NO GEAR MON. Or relatively weak gear at any rate and iirc their was only a couple of normal lvl max level dungeons, hell we got NONE in mists. Remember coming out of wotlk they had not only easy access to the heroic dungeons but easy access to gear (and a much easier and more lax healing model I could also argue). Why wouldn't they go right for heroics?

    Look I agree it gets old but raids don't? I mean it's not really a good argument to say the game is old. I do agree with it but like focusing it on raiding hasn't rejuvenated it anyway and the developers seemingly produce nothing but raids these days soooo I don't get how this is a defence or justification of anything?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    That's what seems to have happened to some extent for Lesser Coins.
    That was a good change. Still don't like the coins bonus rng to offset shitty rng (because the developers love rng) is a pretty poor model but yea it is what it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The majority of people bitching about lesser charms early on were the ones complaining their in-game time was too valuable for such lowly activities.
    Not sure how you can make that claim but even if it's true so what? Lot's of peoples time IS valuable and it's not about doing some lowly activity it's simple they don't have time to commit to this activity but the rewards are potentially so good. A little bit less so than the daily quests but still. I mean they got rid of pot farming and resistance gear but brought this back as an additional activity to provide a "bonus" in the raid but it's extremely powerful actually especially given all they did to the valor and justice point guys in this game. Like the coin could mean a tier bonus for you for example well I mean you wouldn't give a fuck if you could buy all the tier pieces like you could in wotlk. Shit we had it good then *sigh*
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-10-31 at 08:51 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #227
    LFR is great.
    So does flex.

    What I want is flex becoming the new standard (with a higher difficulty and a heroic mode of course) and 10 / 25 removed No more guildmate waiting on the side of the road ! Yeah, fun for everybody !

    To be honest, who runs LFR after 3 - 4 weeks or regular raiding ? So, who cares ?
    Last edited by LatexIdo; 2013-10-31 at 08:51 AM.

  8. #228
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In wotlk they didn't get nowhere. They literally bought raid gear with it. Now that's kind of out the window because well you can't do that anymore. You have to suffer through actual rng and not ya know win anything for your efforts unless some computer program somewhere determines you did.

    Actually lots of them did kill the normal level dungeons but guess what? NO GEAR MON. Or relatively weak gear at any rate and iirc their was only a couple of normal lvl max level dungeons, hell we got NONE in mists. Remember coming out of wotlk they had not only easy access to the heroic dungeons but easy access to gear (and a much easier and more lax healing model I could also argue). Why wouldn't they go right for heroics?
    Gear was their draw; that's what I'm asserting. The sheer act of "killing this boss" fell out of style.

    Look I agree it gets old but raids don't? I mean it's not really a good argument to say the game is old. I do agree with it but like focusing it on raiding hasn't rejuvenated it anyway and the developers seemingly produce nothing but raids these days soooo I don't get how this is a defence or justification of anything?
    Then one could equally say "if you don't like raids being the content, WoW isn't the game for you." That's the way WoW has been; it's only happened that more people have come to do the raids, largely by Blizzard's design.

    Raids tell the story, offer different challenges, loot, achievements, mounts, different environments... all forms of character progression. The thing is, those are all hinged on having gear. That's WoW.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  9. #229
    I really hate this new wave of people feeling entitled to things they don't wanna spend time on. If you buy a single player game that is too hard for you, do you whine to the developer that you want your money back because you could not finish the game? Absolutely ridiculous.

    To me this is all about what i just said, ive had periods in my life when i couldnt raid cause work took all my time. I did not whine about how unfair it was beacuse others had better gear then me or that they could experience more of the game then me. They are suppose to do that if they play more!

    Endgame is a definition that people have taken way too seriously the last 5-10 years. What most of you do not understand is that endgame in an MMO is suppose to be personal, not what finishes the game for the person who can play it 16 hours per day. I remember back in the day of Asherons Call when endgame for some people was to get to Aerlinthe Island(lvl 45 of 126). And for others it was lvl 126 and full tinkered armor (atleast a year of playing).

    I do understand the need to feel like you are having fun, like your character is progressing and that its worth logging in. Therefor i kind of liked the system more where you could actually grind your raid gear for justice/valor points even tho it took a couple of months extra time the casuals still got their gear eventually.

    For me personally wow has become a game where people dont need to learn about their class, to learn boss mechanics or to even be nice to eachother anymore. LFR made all that possible and therefor i dislike LFR in the way its played right now. Im unsure how to fix this, since the community have been leaning on this nut for a while now and i dont think that the casual squad could live without it. And make no mistake, hardcore players need casuals as much as casuals need hardcore players.
    twitch.tv/draahl - Watch me suck at virtually every game!

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The majority of people bitching about lesser charms early on were the ones complaining their in-game time was too valuable for such lowly activities.

    They're easy as all get out to get on the timeless isle. I probably have enough to last me to the next expansion, and that's from passively just doing the timeless isle stuff. They might as well just lump in a weekly quest to give you the charms for free now.
    Maybe they play from pc bang and cbf to pay for more time for something trivial?

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Not sure how you can make that claim but even if it's true so what? Lot's of peoples time IS valuable and it's not about doing some lowly activity it's simple they don't have time to commit to this activity but the rewards are potentially so good. A little bit less so than the daily quests but still. I mean they got rid of pot farming and resistance gear but brought this back as an additional activity to provide a "bonus" in the raid but it's extremely powerful actually especially given all they did to the valor and justice point guys in this game. Like the coin could mean a tier bonus for you for example well I mean you wouldn't give a fuck if you could buy all the tier pieces like you could in wotlk. Shit we had it good then *sigh*
    People construed something with the word "BONUS" right in the name as something mandatory. Those that put in more effort could potentially receive greater rewards; raiders started asking "why should I have to do this activity (who's entire intent was to serve as a means of providing bonus rolls) to get the bonus rolls?" That was the effort set forth, and the effort required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Maybe they play from pc bang and cbf to pay for more time for something trivial?
    Then why do they deserve that extra roll at loot?
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Draahl View Post
    I really hate this new wave of people feeling entitled to things they don't wanna spend time on. If you buy a single player game that is too hard for you, do you whine to the developer that you want your money back because you could not finish the game? Absolutely ridiculous.

    To me this is all about what i just said, ive had periods in my life when i couldnt raid cause work took all my time. I did not whine about how unfair it was beacuse others had better gear then me or that they could experience more of the game then me. They are suppose to do that if they play more!

    Endgame is a definition that people have taken way too seriously the last 5-10 years. What most of you do not understand is that endgame in an MMO is suppose to be personal, not what finishes the game for the person who can play it 16 hours per day. I remember back in the day of Asherons Call when endgame for some people was to get to Aerlinthe Island(lvl 45 of 126). And for others it was lvl 126 and full tinkered armor (atleast a year of playing).

    I do understand the need to feel like you are having fun, like your character is progressing and that its worth logging in. Therefor i kind of liked the system more where you could actually grind your raid gear for justice/valor points even tho it took a couple of months extra time the casuals still got their gear eventually.

    For me personally wow has become a game where people dont need to learn about their class, to learn boss mechanics or to even be nice to eachother anymore. LFR made all that possible and therefor i dislike LFR in the way its played right now. Im unsure how to fix this, since the community have been leaning on this nut for a while now and i dont think that the casual squad could live without it. And make no mistake, hardcore players need casuals as much as casuals need hardcore players.
    You don't need to improve when determination will eventually push the boss over.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Maybe if they aren't devoted players try don't belong in this type of game...
    Fantastic idea! Get rid of the "non-devoted" players (and as we are talking about casual players I take it you mean most casual players = not devoted enough to raid properly). The game would be so much better without them all. Besides, then we could finally sort out the low pop realms because we could merge ALL the realms into one because that would be all we would need! /endsarcasm

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Draahl View Post
    I really hate this new wave of people feeling entitled to things they don't wanna spend time on. If you buy a single player game that is too hard for you, do you whine to the developer that you want your money back because you could not finish the game? Absolutely ridiculous.

    To me this is all about what i just said, ive had periods in my life when i couldnt raid cause work took all my time. I did not whine about how unfair it was beacuse others had better gear then me or that they could experience more of the game then me. They are suppose to do that if they play more!

    Endgame is a definition that people have taken way too seriously the last 5-10 years. What most of you do not understand is that endgame in an MMO is suppose to be personal, not what finishes the game for the person who can play it 16 hours per day. I remember back in the day of Asherons Call when endgame for some people was to get to Aerlinthe Island(lvl 45 of 126). And for others it was lvl 126 and full tinkered armor (atleast a year of playing).

    I do understand the need to feel like you are having fun, like your character is progressing and that its worth logging in. Therefor i kind of liked the system more where you could actually grind your raid gear for justice/valor points even tho it took a couple of months extra time the casuals still got their gear eventually.

    For me personally wow has become a game where people dont need to learn about their class, to learn boss mechanics or to even be nice to eachother anymore. LFR made all that possible and therefor i dislike LFR in the way its played right now. Im unsure how to fix this, since the community have been leaning on this nut for a while now and i dont think that the casual squad could live without it. And make no mistake, hardcore players need casuals as much as casuals need hardcore players.
    Your post is all over the place, but I WILL say this: many single-player games offer easy mode difficulties. They recognize that not everyone wants to be challenged or has the time to improve. That's basically what LFR is: an easy mode.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Gear was their draw; that's what I'm asserting. The sheer act of "killing this boss" fell out of style.



    Then one could equally say "if you don't like raids being the content, WoW isn't the game for you." That's the way WoW has been; it's only happened that more people have come to do the raids, largely by Blizzard's design.

    Raids tell the story, offer different challenges, loot, achievements, mounts, different environments... all forms of character progression. The thing is, those are all hinged on having gear. That's WoW.
    Right okay Gear was the draw? I don't see the argument your making here. Gear is almost ALWAYS the draw only now it's been made less casual to get.

    Okay and that's not the game for you soooo why is anyone surprised people are leaving? I mean if the developers share that attitude (and they very well may) how long do you think they'll keep their jobs? How many subscribers or customers do you think the game can maintain? Here's the thing for a large section of the player base the game was largely never about raids. They had other activities that kept them p(l)aying and rewarded. At the end of cataclysm it came down a draw between those activities (dungeons) and raids and well obviously one of these won out and it was the less casual friendly of the two.

    Raids aren't the only way to tell the story, offering different challenges is not the primary goal or method of entertaining people, lots of other content offered really good loot before, achievements exist everywhere, mounts can be acquired through numerous activities, different environments are well different enviroments and chjaracter progression can be offered in alternatives just as good as raiding. None of it needs to be hinged on gear but even if it does then it need not be hinged on RAIDING or consuming raid content at any rate. Raiding is not a fundamental law of nature, business, or game design.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #236
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    You don't need to improve when determination will eventually push the boss over.
    So you'd rather have a system where you have to scroll down the DPS list in recount, pick out the lacking DPS, and educate each them how to play their class competently, wait for them to reforge/regem, then come back so they can try out their new DPS rotation a few times?

    And then do that for every DPS/healer/tank having problems in your LFR group?


    And people say LFR is time consuming now... With such a large group, personal accountability has to take a hit, or else one or two people could genuinely hold up entire raids.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    People construed something with the word "BONUS" right in the name as something mandatory. Those that put in more effort could potentially receive greater rewards; raiders started asking "why should I have to do this activity (who's entire intent was to serve as a means of providing bonus rolls) to get the bonus rolls?" That was the effort set forth, and the effort required.



    Then why do they deserve that extra roll at loot?
    Because bad ideas like forcing you to do dailies like at beginning of mop is ridiculous for anyone. Now if you do your own thing and get coins then the time you spent when you were on is more enjoyable. It also opens up more options in the game than being locked into some rep grind that doesn't interest you at the time.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    People construed something with the word "BONUS" right in the name as something mandatory. Those that put in more effort could potentially receive greater rewards; raiders started asking "why should I have to do this activity (who's entire intent was to serve as a means of providing bonus rolls) to get the bonus rolls?" That was the effort set forth, and the effort required.
    This is obviously not new behaviour but actually it's behaviour encouraged by the developers. They were of course right to ask that question but it wasn't just raiders asking it, it was also lfr players who I guess are raiders now to. EVERYONE was asking it because it was BS. Now if they really wanted it to be a bonus you make it less attractive or offer alternatives to it. Let's say you don't get a coin for a week okay instead your valor cap is raised and well you can buy a piece of tier gear from the vendor. Now you can still win it from the coin POTENTIALLY as a bonus but if you don't want to play the bonus rng game you can still get something out of it.

    The developers like to use the word "compelling" alot. The definition of the root of that word is FORCED (literally you can look it up). So yes in the process of trying to compel people to do an activity people felt compelled to do it and they didn't like it cause it felt like a job and they just wanted to get it over with. Now it could be that the activity had less benefit and less "bonus" but then it would be less "compelling" but people would feel like they could skip it and yes would actually skip it. It goes hand in hand. You can't make something that rewarding that it's compelling and then not expect people feel forced to do it. I mean what fuckign sense does that make? The developers put that shit in the game for you to do it not for you to skip it. What kind of a total fucking waste of time and resources would it be if it was just in the game for you to skip it and ignore it? Of course they want you to do it, of course thy want you to feel "compelled" to do it, it's just that at some point people felt forced (which again is the defintion of the word "compel") to do it and guess what they didn't like that. It all goes back to people not doing anything unless their was gear around it.

    Ironically that's the position that lfr is in now to. Before everyone felt forced. Well now flex is here and bam lfr feels less "compelling" really forced all of a sudden.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-10-31 at 09:07 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    So you'd rather have a system where you have to scroll down the DPS list in recount, pick out the lacking DPS, and educate each them how to play their class competently, wait for them to reforge/regem, then come back so they can try out their new DPS rotation a few times?

    And then do that for every DPS/healer/tank having problems in your LFR group?


    And people say LFR is time consuming now... With such a large group, personal accountability has to take a hit, or else one or two people could genuinely hold up entire raids.
    I'm not suggesting anything. I'm just stating why players don't have to improve or feel the need the for it. 2 players can hold the group up if they que for tank then decide to afk, die to mechanics etc.
    Last edited by Barnabas; 2013-10-31 at 09:08 AM.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You won't get good answers, because anyone saying that LFR should be removed simply hasn't thought the issue all the way through, or hasn't been playing long enough to realize that when the game DID have more dungeons, folks got utterly sick of running them, and you had just as many complaints flying around. (just about different topics).

    While the game should certainly have more dungeons, and hopefully good ones next time around, LFR isn't, and shouldn't, be going anywhere.
    I think the biggest issue with the dungeons is yes - they do get boring fast and do not offer the rewards people want. However releasing NEW dungeons each patch at least helps to keep them fresh(er) and act as a catchup gearing mechanism. For people who only really do LFR the gearup mechanism if you get behind isnt great. Having to do the previous LFRs is great in theory but it presents some issues. First is that as its an older LFR the people wanting to do it are less and so the queue times are much longer. Secondly requiring people to catch up in older LFRs inflates the queue times for the newer ones too because people who could be queuing for them are instead queuing for older ones. Before flex this wasnt too much of a problem, but since the queue times have got a lot longer of course.

    Having catchup dungeons released each patch means people don't have to sit so long in queues and have more new content regularly be it LFR or dungeons. I think the dungeon patch they took in Cata worked pretty well (although personally I hated the two troll rehashed ones).

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