Personally I dont see LFR as a casual way of see the End game or experience the new raid instance.
1) To get in to LFR as healer or tank - Queues differ but usually u get to join a grp in 1-10 mins. But for DPS its most likely 20 mins+ perhaps even 50 mins
2) when u are already in u might join a grp that already finished of 1-2 or even 3 bosses which means that u have to rejoin.
3) if u are in a full grp rdy to rumble u will most likely have to spend at least 1,5- 2 hours in the raid. Faster perhaps with a good grp but most likely not during this early stage.
4) you have to do all this for 3 more parts
5) ppl leave, disconnect AFK and the grp have to idle for god knows how long.
6) there is prolly more to add...
Adding all this time together with queues, wiping and raiding in LFR u easily fit in a 2-3 nights per week raiding schedule.
Casual LFR isnt Casual. It takes time and is retarded. If u want ppl to improve, make the game hard. Flex should by all means be the easiest difficulty.
Personally LFR is just another way of getting some upgrades for an alt which is most welcome of course but I cba struggle with idiots when I am already undergeared and cant carry the grp.
Frostwhisper EU - Hulkovius Elemental
aspire to do something lol?
Can't do much about fansites spoiling things. Although they can stop being so dependent on public test realms. And put some cease-and-desists on dataminers. People are still going to datamine, but with official sites not allowed to show the results, and visitors being so lazy, very few people will actually go the extra mile to find an "underground" datamine-results-displaying site, and even those sites can be similarly treated, since just like most people that want to visit them, so can Blizzard's lawyers find them. They could also ban some add-ons that pretty much play the game for you, and impose a delay on fansites releasing guides for recent content. Too much work, I know, but if they care there are available steps.
Of course, there are no more 60 levels to cover, but that does not mean that there cannot be developed an equally large amount of content; which is what matters the most in this subject. That is why I am coming back to quantity continuously. They can still develop as many zones, as many campaigns, as many class quests, as much complex quests, and so on. They can actually do better than vanilla; far better. But they don't, because they have gone the instanced content way, which is more convenient, and faster, and has less expenses.
Last edited by Drithien; 2013-10-31 at 02:11 PM.
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A Flexible raid on a LFR difficulty with an oQueue-like LFG tool can be used exactly the same as LFR if you still want that...
How is that not a good proposal?
Last edited by Gilian; 2013-10-31 at 02:15 PM.
But to the OP's question:
1) Fix the actual raiding platform; four modes is too much. Downtune normal mode and make it flexible, with heroic only being available on 25-man. The next step is putting up with the almighty din that'd come from 10-man heroic raiders, then three months down the line the raiding game ends up in far healthier shape again because 25-man guilds were salvaged. Leave LFR where it is. Lastly, remove the Thunder/Warforged items, they're not achieving anything.
2) Drop the size of raids to 9 to 12 bosses per tier, and then ensure that there is at least one dungeon per patch. Scrap challenge modes, make heroic modes truly heroic, and give them rewards equal to LFR (meta-achievements can be used for mounts/mogging gear). Stop, however, with the rail-roaded, twenty minute, 3-boss pieces of shit we've been served up for years and start thinking back to the original Stratholme and Blackrock Spire. THAT is what a dungeon should be, and it forms endgame for casual players. Then, reinstate the dungeon sets of The Burning Crusade such as the Oblivion Raiment and the like so that players can still progress in them.
3) Overhaul the profession system entirely so that it, too, can be a part of endgame. Alternative Chat recently spoke about this, but professions have been entirely stripped of their depth since mid-Wrath. It sucks. Systems could be put in place for skilled crafters so that they can make a plan, but see it get a bonus if they're particularly skilled (via skill-based profession quests, number of patterns known, etc/etc). Bonuses could include them being already 2/2 upgraded, or simply a higher item level or with more secondary stats. The absolute gold here would be a cool proc. For the love of Jeebus, bring back crafting specializations and make mastery time consuming.
4) Major lore events need to stop happening in raids. Domination Point was a great example of how to do this, and the new tech for random events on the Timeless Isle make more possibilities land squarely on the table. Reward exploration outside of quest objectives with cool visual content rather than items destined to become vendor materials (but make them repeatable, similar to the fall of the Lich King).
5) Develop scenarios so that they can be placed earlier in the game and act as proving grounds on the way up. I'd be particularly keen on solo-scenarios that revealed major lore points such as the death of Illidan or the destruction of Yogg-Saron. Players in a "raid" of NPC's can then be taught boss-related mechanics that increase their skill level while helping them to enjoy the rich lore of the game, rather than the dull proving grounds which don't really do much of anything.
6) For fuck's sake, fix PvP. Stop treating it like a meaningless side game and give the community some respect. Balance it properly with PvP specs rather than trying to shoe-horn every spec into raiding, then make the content more interesting than merely random BG's or a bit of arena. Bring back world PvP zones, and make some more from the earlier game but scale players so that there's no pointless ganking. Then make a set of PvP campaigns so that PvP players can enjoy the sense of progression from the "new content" angle rather than merely farming gear.
7) Beef up the difficulty of levelling quests and dungeons. For crying out loud it's too easy, too fast and laughably pointless. Failure isn't introduced until level 90 and that's all kinds of wrong. Levels can then be made more meaningful rather than largely forgettable, while also making casual players appreciate the content more. Stop treating new players as if they're droopy-eyed armless children who can't press buttons. They're not.
8) Lastly, and by no means least, to Blizzard: Stop blaming one side of the community when the other side cries. It's putting people at each other's throat. Take responsibility for bad design decisions rather than blaming an intangible group of people, then hiding behind "we have all the data". Stop assuming everyone wants to raid just because you do, and think about how to provide meaningful content for casual players rather than useless, queued mini-games that have no real impact on a character.
That's my starter for 10.
Last edited by Zell the Stormbreaker; 2013-10-31 at 02:26 PM.
As for dungeons I disagree on some of it. Making dungeons hard is what drove players away in Cata. I would have Heroic dungeons and Champion Dungeons. Champion dungeons would use a flex style system where you queue with a full group and it presents a harder version of the same dungeon with better loot and theres also 2 longer dungeons in this mode. I fully agree on Vanilla/TBC dungeon sets, bring in those with a quest to upgrade them down the line. Challenge modes could remain if they are popular and are accessed as they are now.
Fully agree on Scenarios and professions. I would also like to see more dungeon drops for professions and quests tied to doing something in said dungeon (like BRD smithing for example for some rare stuff).
And if people want to queue up for heroics, let them. I hate this "CM's and heroic scenarios are too hard for the queue" shit.
Let the fucking players decide.
Tie that in with professions, maybe?
Yeh it would be a fair amount of work but it would be far better than trying to balance skills that work in PVE then are hugely overpowered in PVP.
i think lfr could be signifigantly improved without making any changes at all to the in-game system.
i think both socially and constructively it could be improved by simply removing the naming and shaming ethos from the forums.
as it stands the trolls, griefers, ninjas, lazies, bads, and <insert whatever else applies here> are the only ones that benefit from the system.
untill blizz steps up and ensures some form of personal responsibility returns to what you do in-game nothing will change.
it has to be the players changing before any improvements to the game will make any difference.
i say a lot of things.
some of them may be sarcastic, rude, or insulting.
but if you read carefully, i dont aim to insult people, and very rarely trolling ~ its my honest opinion. if you think im talking about you, go get some coffee and read it again later.
have a nice day.
I fully agree let people queue up for these things, let people who want "heroics" queue up for those and any higher setting let that go on there. I would probably make the harder ones require you to have a full group similar to flex. It would also make it so people try to form their own groups. But I would not be against full on match making instead for it.
Professions could certainly tie into it. I can see that you can do it. You have to farm some materials for a portion of the upgrade quest (so say you get 4 set bonus the upgrade quest chain unlocks and you upgrade each item by doing various tasks. Killing bosses SP scenarios. and a profession related upgrade). These materials could then be given to a smith who makes a certain item for your quest that when trade to you, you then use a quest item that merges the items to upgrade.
Vanilla appealed to those in the open world, and you could say that it did last a while for a lot of people. Hell it could have lasted them expansions, but when they finally reach level cap and want to do something more in say wotlk, they are met with raiding. The progression to pro-raid and anti-open world is akin only to scale at which the amount of casual players either grew bored with questing or simply wished for something new that was well within their league.
One could also state that the complexity of "try, fail, try again" has been sapped from the open world and placed within raiding. Never before have boss encounters been so complex or unforgiving, nor have there ever been the shear amount of raiders we have now. And the respects of players being of a much higher average skill level than there ever was in vanilla having access to resources that were never endorsed by blizzard, let alone heard of by a majority. These things we have now trivialize the mystery that might be the game for the sake of convenience because that is how the game was made. The game was made to absorb as much time as possible, and while the intrigue of an open world and discovery can no longer facilitate that, an essence of challenging and intuitive boss encounters can and does.
Additionally I remember quite the many threads even fairly recently preaching the exact opposite of how the zones work, that there was no over-arching story and it all simply felt thrown together in a hobbled mess of 38 zones. There was no clear villain and what villains you did fight you didn't know why. A shift from a massive amount of "go hear kill this" with vague references that harken back only to those who played the warcraft rpg series is not a good set up for any kind of story telling. Open worldness aside, because even skyrim could pull off open world with an over-arching story that meant something, something vanilla did not in any respect. Each storyline felt all over the place, while amounting to very little. I would definitely place myself among those who'd much rather have the care of a quality story-line over the mess that is a story without meaning.
Perhaps I am looking too far into this, but I do know one thing for sure, a world of warcraft that was far more open world with much less raiding would simply facilitate a different type of boredom than the current direction. Too many things readily trivialize that notion and what utility won't destroy, repetition will as it does with the current direction.
Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.