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  1. #421
    How did you get from this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    So lfr can stay, i wont ever do it again anyway so it doesnt affect me at all.
    To this:
    Quote Originally Posted by xcureanddisease View Post
    I dont understand what you mean, "LFR was the only way to progress your alt chars" so you opt to remove it completely?
    I think you need to reread that post. He opts to do it but doesn't care if they leave it in the game. In other words, he's rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Blizzard wouldn't give a shit if 75 players went on strike, not when their business is to make 7.5 million people happy, and ones personal raiding skill does not factor into making people happy. Blizzard wouldn't even feel the bump of running over those three world first guilds leaving the game. The ideal that 3 world first guilds having the power to make blizzard break seriously makes me wonder about the age of the poster who said that these 3 world first guilds could actually make blizzard change its direction.
    Comparing Apples to Oranges here.

    If 75 heroic raiders, whom the entire world watches and enjoys watching, leave, I agree they will be replaced by the next best thing.

    If 75 casual players left due to LFR being removed, and Flex being dumbed down slightly to be the pug raid, no one would even notice.

    If we're going to assume all casual players will leave if LFR is removed, we have to do the same with heroic/normal raiders.
    If all the Heroic raiders left due to heroic raids being removed, Blizzard would be in a pretty damn bad place. Not just because hardcore players would leave entirely, but because Normal raiders who beat the last boss would then unsub until the next raid patch.

    So I consider it a pretty noticable difference between your argument.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Comparing Apples to Oranges here.

    If 75 heroic raiders, whom the entire world watches and enjoys watching, leave, I agree they will be replaced by the next best thing.

    If 75 casual players left due to LFR being removed, and Flex being dumbed down slightly to be the pug raid, no one would even notice.

    If we're going to assume all casual players will leave if LFR is removed, we have to do the same with heroic/normal raiders.
    If all the Heroic raiders left due to heroic raids being removed, Blizzard would be in a pretty damn bad place. Not just because hardcore players would leave entirely, but because Normal raiders who beat the last boss would then unsub until the next raid patch.

    So I consider it a pretty noticable difference between your argument.
    While I agree that it would be a sad thing to see happen. The reality is

    Say a generous 350k players doing normal mode. If all those leave but you have content for the millions of casual players and they stay subbed that's a better solution than.

    350k stay but you then lose all your other customers. Its raw numbers. One side outweighs the other.

    Normal mode raiders usually take a lot longer to clear content then the heroic level guilds as well. So their content could last a while. Most guilds put that content on farm when clear for a while anyway as well.

  4. #424
    Epic! twistedsista's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Maybe if they aren't devoted players try don't belong in this type of game...
    i really have seen it all now.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Draahl View Post
    I really hate this new wave of people feeling entitled to things they don't wanna spend time on. If you buy a single player game that is too hard for you, do you whine to the developer that you want your money back because you could not finish the game?
    No one is demanding their money back. When I buy a single player game I have it forever without the need to pay subscription fees. If I get frustrated and quit playing it for three months the company that sold me their game doesn't give a rat's ass because they already took their money and ran. WoW is a subscription-based service, and that's where it differs. If there's nothing left in the game that I enjoy doing I'm free to quit shelling out $15 a month. That's why Blizzard cares. It's not "entitled" to demand content that you can participate in on your schedule for your $15 a month, and it's not "entitled" to unsubscribe when you're no longer enjoying the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draahl View Post
    To me this is all about what i just said, ive had periods in my life when i couldnt raid cause work took all my time. I did not whine about how unfair it was beacuse others had better gear then me or that they could experience more of the game then me. They are suppose to do that if they play more!
    And at those times you either unsubscribed (which is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want you to do) or you continued to shell out $15 for a game you didn't really even play any more (which is just stupid, in my opinion). In the first case Blizzard loses and in the second case you as a player were losing. Why do you want to force Blizzard back into a lose-lose situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draahl View Post
    For me personally wow has become a game where people dont need to learn about their class, to learn boss mechanics or to even be nice to eachother anymore. LFR made all that possible and therefor i dislike LFR in the way its played right now. Im unsure how to fix this, since the community have been leaning on this nut for a while now and i dont think that the casual squad could live without it. And make no mistake, hardcore players need casuals as much as casuals need hardcore players.
    Since when were MMOs supposed to be educational parenting tools? If you want a game like that you can check out Barney's Jungle Friends. That game is even free.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    You don't need to improve when determination will eventually push the boss over.
    You do need to improve if you don't want to spend two per boss every run waiting for determination to build.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  6. #426
    The problem in my mind isn't that looking for raid provides content for people who don't feel the urge to do normal's etc. Its the fact that its a wall to get into normal. Back before Lfr, you could spam heroic's, farm those badges etc and then hop into normal. Now LFR has turned into the entry point.. And its a wall. Why should "Rick" who is a raider leveling an alt he wants to gear up have to play with "Billy" who plays a few hours a week to do looking for raid. This also contributes to a pack mentality, where if "Billy" Is really bad at the game, then other people will feel they only have to perform to the level of "Billy" to not be removed from the group. Now blizzard knows Billy is a bad player but he does pay for the game, so they made it so "Billy" can get gear to still feel accomplished. The only two reasonable fixes I see for this are to either A. Make looking for raid to have a repeated chance to drop gear, Or B. Make heroic instances or scenario's or something with a smaller wall, drop entry level items.

    This has also caused allot of hate on Looking For raid since it is the end of an expansion where most guilds at first glance require a legendary cloak, So what does "Jim" who didn't keep up on the quest line or just re sub do? Do looking for raid every week, get frustrated because he has to climb a HUGE wall to raid normals.

  7. #427
    Old God Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Seeing these types threads everyday is starting to hinder my enjoyment for wow...i just don't want to play a game where it's community is so steeped in hatred, jealously and so focused on themselves that they fail to see beyond what happens in their own little circle.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by maldias View Post
    considering you can farm that out of the timeless isle with burdens and get some pieces from IoT and ToT.
    but i guess putting any amount of work into your character is out of the question, huh?
    Considering that your suggestion would amount to game play that is boring as hell, I don't see it as a viable option. Your suggestion is the equivalent of adding attunements for flex raiding. If we're going to do that why don't we just put attunements back in the game for everyone and not just casual players?
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Strydr0 View Post
    The problem in my mind isn't that looking for raid provides content for people who don't feel the urge to do normal's etc. Its the fact that its a wall to get into normal. Back before Lfr, you could spam heroic's, farm those badges etc and then hop into normal. Now LFR has turned into the entry point.. And its a wall. Why should "Rick" who is a raider leveling an alt he wants to gear up have to play with "Billy" who plays a few hours a week to do looking for raid. This also contributes to a pack mentality, where if "Billy" Is really bad at the game, then other people will feel they only have to perform to the level of "Billy" to not be removed from the group. Now blizzard knows Billy is a bad player but he does pay for the game, so they made it so "Billy" can get gear to still feel accomplished. The only two reasonable fixes I see for this are to either A. Make looking for raid to have a repeated chance to drop gear, Or B. Make heroic instances or scenario's or something with a smaller wall, drop entry level items.

    This has also caused allot of hate on Looking For raid since it is the end of an expansion where most guilds at first glance require a legendary cloak, So what does "Jim" who didn't keep up on the quest line or just re sub do? Do looking for raid every week, get frustrated because he has to climb a HUGE wall to raid normals.
    That huge wall though was in place by players (legendary cloaks) you can clear normal mode with out it. Now I do agree that there needed to an alternative to LFR for some gearing purposes. Prior to 5.2 that was clearly dungeons. Heroic 5man content was aimed at gearing you for raids and Normal mode was done with said gear in mind.

    5.2 had no catch up to get its required gear to complete it other than running previous tier gear or doing LFR. That was an issue. 5.3 tried to fix it and fell short. 5.4 has at least allowed you to get timeless gear that can get you into some raids. But again the barrier here will be "guilds" or other players telling you no. The game allows you to do 5.4 content. In TBC you had to go through Heroics/Kara SSC TK etc to do any higher raids. This system while still flawed is miles better than that.

    Wraths catch up with 5man dungeons is also a good way of doing it.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    There is no difference between LFR and a dungeon, except that LFR followed by just higher difficulties means that essentially players will be repeating the same stuff many many times.

    Raid it on LFR? Next to Flex. Done with Flex? Enjoy Normal. Good enough for Normal? Heroic time.
    That is just ridiculous and tedious. Nobody wants to have multiple tiers of content all be the same thing. That's why it nice for heroic to have an extra boss. (Sinestra Algalon Ra-den)

    - - - Updated - - -



    Fine. All heroic raiding guilds quit vs all non-raiders (excluding those who PvP) quit. See what then? See who blizzard tries to bring back with promises of content made for them.

    Every player 13/13 ToT vs every player 0/12 ToT

    Which would Blizzard actually worry about?
    Blizzard would Absolutely worry most about the 0/12 , You do realise that the Raiding community makes up -maybe- 10% of the WoW population right? so..those 0/12 go byebye, what are you left with?

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Your problem is the difficulty level. That doesn't mean that LFR has to stay. At least not in it's current form. You can have a Flex raid on a LFR-like difficulty without having to queue and group up with complete strangers and random players. An oQueue-like LFG tool can then replace the old queueing system and we don't have to spam trade chat and we will have a much broader search for players because it's crossrealm.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah.... just go back a few pages and look what I wrote instead of telling me that I am not offering a solution and only want to remove LFR.

    A Flexible raid on a LFR difficulty with an oQueue-like LFG tool can be used exactly the same as LFR if you still want that...
    How is that not a good proposal?
    An Oqueue like LFG tool? Blizzard will not support this because Blizzard determines who qualifies for joining a raid, not the playerbase. You have to be ilevel 460 to join LFR, if players got to decide who came they would require 476 even though the loot the LFR drops is 476. This would only ensure that people who have not proven themselves to be capable would have a road block to improving themselves.
    That and the difficulty of LFR is set due to the only form of communication being a text based system. If they had a voice based system of communication in game that would help a lot but that's not going to happen and not every player knows about add ons and voice chat systems. The ability to play wow should not be based on requring using programs outside of wow. It should be a self-contained system.

    And Oqueue is not all that people like to believe it is, you still get crap players who don't live up to standards and you get really good players who split after 1 wipe because the rest are not good enough. It takes the 3 star restaraunt of Flex and turns it into the Mc'Dowwels of raiding.

    If you want afkers out of LFR then you have to make it so fights require that everyone has active participation in a fight to achieve loot, the garrosh fight is a good example because at several points you have to rush down a hall to get the boss and those who are afk are obvious.

    They also need to make it so I have unlimited kicks to get rid of bad players, I have been on a 2 hour lock out for 3 months now. I can't kick an AFK asshat if I wanted to. Am I a chronic kicker? No, theres just an unlimited amount of afk asshats that have to be removed in order to progress.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    While I agree that it would be a sad thing to see happen. The reality is

    Say a generous 350k players doing normal mode. If all those leave but you have content for the millions of casual players and they stay subbed that's a better solution than.

    350k stay but you then lose all your other customers. Its raw numbers. One side outweighs the other.

    Normal mode raiders usually take a lot longer to clear content then the heroic level guilds as well. So their content could last a while. Most guilds put that content on farm when clear for a while anyway as well.
    I didn't say it was comparable, but it would still be pretty bad.

    There are flaws in both arguments; Both the one I quoted and my own. Namely: Not all casual players would up and leave just because LFR is gone. With LFR gone, more content can be created as less time is spent balancing the game on multiple difficulties. Whether this would go to hardcore content or casual friendly content is up to Blizzard. Not all casuals enjoy raiding, either; Many would stay to RP, many would pug Flex, many would continue doing quests/world content that they already do. Hardcore players may also leave without enough to do outside of raid content.
    Similarly, if hardcore raids were removed, not all heroic raiders would up and leave immediately. They may switch to PvP after downing normal content. Casuals may leave because they only enjoyed playing to play the same game as the hardcore people they watched, and aspired to be as good as. And, just like the previous statement, scaling for multiple difficulties wouldn't be needed, leaving room for more content development.

    I was just saying, you can't compare apples to oranges and expect to have a valid argument.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I'm pretty sure if Method, Midwinter and Blood Legion all went on strike at the start I next expansion Blizzard would scramble to get them back. Why? Because they are the players who have stayed here for a long time. The ones who don't quit because they have bad loot luck or got nerfed.
    they wouldn't care because thats maybe 100 subs they would loose, and + 100 or -100 doesn't matter. LFR will stay, because more people would quit without it, because nothing to do and lets simple face it, once you reach max-lvl in wow there's nothing to do but dungeons or raids (be it flex / lfr / normal) and you want to tell 95% of the subscripers thx but either you wanna play hardcore or have nothing to do .......

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Comparing Apples to Oranges here.

    If 75 heroic raiders, whom the entire world watches and enjoys watching, leave, I agree they will be replaced by the next best thing.

    If 75 casual players left due to LFR being removed, and Flex being dumbed down slightly to be the pug raid, no one would even notice.

    If we're going to assume all casual players will leave if LFR is removed, we have to do the same with heroic/normal raiders.
    If all the Heroic raiders left due to heroic raids being removed, Blizzard would be in a pretty damn bad place. Not just because hardcore players would leave entirely, but because Normal raiders who beat the last boss would then unsub until the next raid patch.

    So I consider it a pretty noticable difference between your argument.
    While Blizzard does not want the raiders to go they -can- survive modestly without them. If the casuals left there would not be a game left for the hardcore raider. Raider leaving = wound that scars, Casuals leave = Wound that kills.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    I didn't say it was comparable, but it would still be pretty bad.

    There are flaws in both arguments; Both the one I quoted and my own. Namely: Not all casual players would up and leave just because LFR is gone. With LFR gone, more content can be created as less time is spent balancing the game on multiple difficulties. Whether this would go to hardcore content or casual friendly content is up to Blizzard. Not all casuals enjoy raiding, either; Many would stay to RP, many would pug Flex, many would continue doing quests/world content that they already do. Hardcore players may also leave without enough to do outside of raid content.
    Similarly, if hardcore raids were removed, not all heroic raiders would up and leave immediately. They may switch to PvP after downing normal content. Casuals may leave because they only enjoyed playing to play the same game as the hardcore people they watched, and aspired to be as good as. And, just like the previous statement, scaling for multiple difficulties wouldn't be needed, leaving room for more content development.

    I was just saying, you can't compare apples to oranges and expect to have a valid argument.
    indeed I agree its a silly argument to make as its obvious to which side blizzard would take if push really came to shove.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    You can always go to wowhead and compare Raggy in MC to heroic Raggy in FL...
    Heck, compare Raggy in MC to Immersius in LFR! Today's first LFR fight is actually as complicated as MC's end boss. Isn't that telling you something?
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    snip
    I don't see either of those things.

    The paradigm did not shift; it was yanked the other way by the developers, with the lure of rewards to facilitate the change. Players were blinded by shinies while being driven to a form of gameplay that they did not come to the game for. I don't know how can anyone justify switching an open world game to a dungeon-based one with any viable reasoning. Players just follow the game's direction because they can't do much of anything else, they are not the developers or their bosses. But when they partake in activities that they are not interested in they will get bored/annoyed, and will lose interest. Is that the only reason the game has declined in popularity? No. But is is one of the main.

    As for the game getting boring due to the players doing the same things all of the time: I play Street Fighter for more than 10 years. I am still not bored of it. Or of Super Mario. Or Zelda. Or Elder Scrolls. Or Grand Theft Auto. Etc. I don't understand why I would get bored of World of WarCraft. Especially since this is a game that gets constantly changed. What is more, what advanced story-telling? In the end it's all about killing/collecting there as well. See, if you want to get to the mechanics of things, both versions are the same. So no, vanilla was not just about killing collecting and overcoming, not more than the current version is, or any other game ever.

    As for the overarching storyline, it has its good points: better quality, but its bad as well: loss of racial identity, lack of multiple campaigns->lack of content, reduced replay-ability. I would much rather play a genuine tauren campaign than be just another soldier aiding the Horde. I would prefer to act as a shaman, not just be called as such in quest text from time to time for flavour; have me do shamany stuff! I want my role-playing session to actually have role-playing elements; I want my character's elements to be meaningful, not just a skin.

    And all of those different options, all the content potentially derived from all those options, would lead to an immense amount of content, to keep players busy for a long time. It's what vanilla did, it's what Elder Scrolls do (the main campaign is more of an excuse rather than important), and it seems to work, time and again, with very good results: vanilla was a period of happiness for most players (mostly high-performance players complained about balance-related things, like they always do), and Skyrim is an immense success both critically and commercially. Why not follow the recipe if it is working, and when the current recipe is failing so badly? Or at least attempt to with a cheaper, more time-efficient version.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-10-31 at 03:16 PM.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Lierial View Post
    they wouldn't care because thats maybe 100 subs they would loose, and + 100 or -100 doesn't matter. LFR will stay, because more people would quit without it, because nothing to do and lets simple face it, once you reach max-lvl in wow there's nothing to do but dungeons or raids (be it flex / lfr / normal) and you want to tell 95% of the subscripers thx but either you wanna play hardcore or have nothing to do .......
    The reality is that only in an elitists wet dream does LFR go and Raiding continues to be as glorious as its ever been.

    If LFR goes then resources will be taken from raid creation content to make content to occupy casuals, there is no way in hell blizzard is going to let 80% of its playerbase have nothing to do. More dungeons, more scenarios, more challenge modes, more pet battles, more casual events and content like farmville or pokewow.

    Should LFR go then raiding will loose a lot of resources and they will get less raid bosses less often. Resources are not ifinite. Currently they design a raid then add some harder mechanics to make heroic mode, then they take normal raid and dumb it down and slap some queue in and end code on it, test them and walla, content for casuals. They have said that a dungeon takes just about as long as a raid wing to design. It takes 6 months to make 4 wings, to keep casuals occupied they would have to make 2 dungeons a month. Thats 12 dungeons (or 12 raid wings) every 6 months.

    LFR is not going anywhere. It's already being hard baked into the next expansion. It fills its purpose, it gives casuals dumbed down raid content so that 100% of endgame resources can be funneled into raiding. That is its only purpose, not welfare purples, not 'I payed $15', not 'earn your rewards'. Its all about keeping casuals in raid content so more raid content can be made.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Drithien View Post
    As for the game getting boring due to the players doing the same things all of the time: I play Street Fighter for more than 10 years. I am still not bored of it. Or of Super Mario. Or Zelda. Or Elder Scrolls. Or Grand Theft Auto. Etc. I don't understand why I would get bored of World of WarCraft. Especially since this is a game that gets constantly changed.
    How often do you play those? Every day? Once a week? Once a month? Would you continue to shell out $15 a month for each of those titles for the privilege of playing them again when you got the urge? I didn't think so.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    An Oqueue like LFG tool? Blizzard will not support this because Blizzard determines who qualifies for joining a raid, not the playerbase. You have to be ilevel 460 to join LFR, if players got to decide who came they would require 476 even though the loot the LFR drops is 476. This would only ensure that people who have not proven themselves to be capable would have a road block to improving themselves.
    Blizzard determines who qualifies for joining a raid and not the playerbase? Yes in LFR only and it really is working out great is it?

    Ofcourse you can not make your own group? And ofcourse, like all the naive people on the forums think, there are no pugs with reasonable requirements?
    That and the difficulty of LFR is set due to the only form of communication being a text based system. If they had a voice based system of communication in game that would help a lot but that's not going to happen and not every player knows about add ons and voice chat systems. The ability to play wow should not be based on requring using programs outside of wow. It should be a self-contained system.
    I've cleared Flex in a completely random pug without voice communication. I also don't understand how this matters when the difficulty remains the same? Does it suddenly require voice communication because the name changed?
    And Oqueue is not all that people like to believe it is, you still get crap players who don't live up to standards and you get really good players who split after 1 wipe because the rest are not good enough. It takes the 3 star restaraunt of Flex and turns it into the Mc'Dowwels of raiding.
    Yes, just like in every other form of group. This happens in LFR, Flex and guilds and also in 5 mans and scenarios. This will never change and the only ones who can do something about it are the players themselves by communicating to eachother what they expect, want and can offer. You are not able to do that in LFR.

    If you want afkers out of LFR then you have to make it so fights require that everyone has active participation in a fight to achieve loot, the garrosh fight is a good example because at several points you have to rush down a hall to get the boss and those who are afk are obvious.

    They also need to make it so I have unlimited kicks to get rid of bad players, I have been on a 2 hour lock out for 3 months now. I can't kick an AFK asshat if I wanted to. Am I a chronic kicker? No, theres just an unlimited amount of afk asshats that have to be removed in order to progress.
    This will automatically remove all (edit: wait... not all but a lot. Before someone is going to nitpick about that.) the "toxic" behaviour from your groups because you decide who you play with instead of being put in a group with random players every single time.

    I think the whole current votekick system is flawed. Voting is a good thing but all the protection and limitations can go for all I care. Been over this in other threads (mostly on official forums) so I am not going into this again in this thread.

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