TLDR: Nobody will keep you out of flex in the future but your own laziness(hell that's how it is now).
What i would do, it would be fairly simple
1.Enable multiple guilds
With vitural realms, just enable multiple guilds and if the player doesn't even bother with social interaction and look for a guild to join to raid with, i don't think they should keep playing the game
"Look around you. We're all liars here, and every one of us is better than you" - PB
"I see we have visitors. Two arms!" - Mar'tak
Though with your blind accusations and excuses, I'm not convinced you aren't.
Infracted: More civility and less personal insults please. [ML]
Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-10-31 at 11:44 PM.
Said it before, 5 man "raids". LFR doesnt do anything for me, its fun first time. But you never get that epic feeling when you kill the last boss and the gameplay is boring. Gameplay is boring because you dont get the feeling you need to max/min and need to play your best. If enough players know the tactics in a LFR its a push over. This is also why you dont get a epic feeling when you kill a boss.
This starts another problem for me, importance of dailys/proffesions. I dont get energy to do dailys or level proffesions because its not needed for LFR. Even if they were needed i wouldnt do them anyway. Because gameplay and the cool feeling working to kill a boss in LFR is boring. I gladly did dailys every day when i raided 3-4 days a week more seriously, but as a casual noway, its not worth the time. Do dailys and max/min your char you need to feel its for a fun and useful goal, which LFR is not close to be.
So what left for a casual pver then, gameplay wise? Challenge modes. They however doesnt give you cool loot and racing to get the best time might be fun for some, but they are not enough.
When you play very casual it can be hard to get 10 man going for normals/heriocs, alot easier with 5.
LFR can still be in the game, but they need to add fun gameplay for casuals, becuase its very limited today for me personally.
I would love 5mans because of the gameplay. TBC heriocs before they nerfed them was really fun. I had gameplay wise more fun then in raids. You had to use more abilities then just normal raid rotations, not always but when you did a herioc with bad gear and no cc, it could create fun scenarios.
At which point most groups would require 535.If you grind away on the Timeless isle a bit more you can easily raise it over 520.
Blizzard obviously disagrees or they wouldn't put in catch up mechanics directed specifically towards gearing people for LFR in the game with each new tier.You should have SOME kind of gear from the most recent tier before you consider entering the current tier...
Says you. Blizz obviously disagrees with you based on, well, everything they've done over the past 9 years. Badges, valor, and other such catch up mechanics make that pretty obvious. QQing about that is stupid. If you don't like it, you should have quit in Wrath.QQ'ing that you can't do the final tier in gear from the first tier of an expansion is stupid.
That's irrelevant as the chance of Blizz removing LFR, no matter how much you QQ over it's existence, are nil. Flex might replace Normal raiding (but I doubt it), but LFR will never go away because Blizz knows many players, for whatever reason, want/need a way to access content without the requirement of finding the acceptance of a large group of other players when they have the desire to raid.Nobody will keep you out of flex in the future but your own lazines
No. I'd expect them to do some LFR and gear up a little better. Because, there's LFR.If you formed your own group which is your own choice to do such, would you take a 496ilvl player?
If there wasn't LFR, it would be moot as I wouldn't be in any position to start a flex group since I geared up using LFR myself and only moved to doing doing Flex and Normal once I had better gear and some experience with the bosses. Without LFR, I wouldn't have the gear or the experience and wouldn't be raiding at all.
Killing Garrosh on a Sunday night the first week felt pretty epic. It's still a big challenge as most people are still learning all the fights for that wing and you don't get many over geared normal or heroic raiders in there to pad their gear like you do on Tuesdays.But you never get that epic feeling when you kill the last boss
Maybe it's not as epic as downing Kel'Thuzad in Naxx40 was, but it's as epic as downing Deathwing was on Normal.
TBC heroics were in TBC. The game was a lot younger then. They brought TBC-style heroics back in Cata and by and large, people hated them.TBC heriocs before they nerfed them was really fun.
That's just how things are in a MMORPG. People still reminisce about how great UO was pre-Trammell or how great EQ was before Luclin. But, it's kinda strange that those break points where people often say a game started going downhill also tend to coincide with an influx of new players.
UO's sub numbers jumped 66% after Renaissance. EQ gained a 37.5% increase after Luclin (and was still going up before the release of WoW complete derailed it). And WoW added 25% with Wrath.
It's likely less about the game changing than it is about the players changing that ruins things for existing players. TBC's heroics were probably more fun because the people playing those TBC heroics with you were probably more like you than those players attracted by Wrath.
Last edited by Ecwfrk; 2013-10-31 at 11:58 PM.
The other was the stress of dealing with assholes and having to pretend to be nice to them day after day, and not being able to say anything about it if I wanted to keep the peace. There's no sense of tact when they start shouting, because "internet anonymity" and their over-inflated ego from being an officer or thinking they're better than they actually are allows them to get away with such bullshit. Real world, whenever someone has a problem with me at work, it's done on a level of mutual respect because that's the only way people will listen to your points. Fuck up once in game, and there'll always be that one piece of shit that'll start calling you out for it without any sense of respect.
Then there was the lack of flexibility in playing other characters or roles. If I can queue for flex, then I'm happy. Also, how do you measure average DPS in proving grounds? Everyone is scaled down to 463 and almost everyone's essential stats and such go the hell because of it. What about tanks and healers?
So, you expect people like me, people who can't raid on a schedule or simply don't want to, to be left with only 5-mans? I already wait patiently in queues and then spend another few hours in LFR, but I'm tolerant to the wait because it's the fact I'm with a large number of other people in the raid. Change that to dungeons only, and I'll have a reason to stay away.
As it is, I unsubbed recently as there's nothing in the game that interests me - I've done the timeless isle, I've got 4 characters in decent gear, I've killed Garrosh, and I've got my Sky Golem. I've no reason to run LFR again, and other games have my interest now, as do some of my own projects. I'm playing BF4, and I've gone back to SC2 a little now as well. I've got software projects that I want to finish, an entire backend system to build to support said projects, and a research project to do (which will require identification of issues, cause and effect of those issues, potential resolutions to said issues, and diagrams and sketches to propose a remake of the system that this research is in relation to). When I consider that all of those are more interesting to me than what is the final major patch of this expansion, there's no reason for me to stay subbed. Changing LFR to dungeons only would take away any reason I might return in the future and it'd only hurt subs further.
LFR isn't, and shouldn't be, going anywhere.
No, I wont take someone with a 496 ilevel to a flex raid. I run regular flex raids using Queue and my servers Trade Chat. My Ilevel Requirements change per flex but are usually as follows; 520 for flex 1 & 2, 535 for flex 3, and 540-545 for Flex 4. Sometimes I'll use higher requirements if I don't want to take chance of picking up a bad player who got lucky looting burdens from chests. While I don't require an achieve for the first 3 flex runs, I usually do for Flex 4. Before I get into my deeper issue here, I'll explain why. I have a full time job, a wife, and a child. I have varied interests and responsibilities that limit my game time to certain hours and times during the week. Nothing is more frustrating to me then spending the few hours a week I get to play the game I love wiping on a boss because I was lenient on my ilevel and achievement requirements. While the entire game is a waste of time, I'd like to feel that I'm spending what little time I have to play actually progressing towards the goals I set for myself. So, I create groups of players that are competent and that have likely completed the content so I make sure that I can actually complete my goals with what little time I get to play. I'm not obligated to compromise my time, enjoyment level, or standards for anyone else. And to hammer that point in even further, I've got a raid full of other people who are trusting me to build a competent group and not waste their time either. I'm not elitist, I'm just choosing to play the game in the way that's most satisfying and least likely to cause me and the people I'm playing with stress.So, you'll take someone with a 496 iLevel on a Flex raid? I'm betting you wouldn't.
Yet you feel you have room to whine because people who aren't as dedicated to this game get to see the same content you do?
Right now, no one is keeping me out of a raid because there's LFR. If there wasn't LFR, assholes like you would be keeping a lot of people out of raids because anyone who doesn't invest as much time into this game would be beneath you.
You're the kind of person who says things like
And Frankly, Ilevel 496 is the absolute minimum amount of effort you need to put in to become "raid ready". When I see someone trying get into a raid at that Ilevel it makes me wonder if I can expect the minimum amount of effort out of them the entire raid. People don't often think about anything other than themselves but I can tell you that it's pretty damn frustrating to join a group where a couple of players are ruining the entire raid for everyone by not knowing their class/fights/reforging/rotation/etc. I think these people forget in their self-entitlement that the other 9-24 people they are playing with may be on limited time schedules using this game as a chance to have some fun, relieve stress, and escape their day to day lives. Nothing irritates me more in WoW than those self-entitled people who have no consideration for anything other than themselves. So, I refuse to play with those people and actively remove them from my groups, because it's my decision to choose how to play. When I leveled my mage alt in 5.4 and wanted to start raiding with him, I didn't just hit 496 and then start looking for a group, I spent time getting coins and fishing for burdens and looking for every way possible to get the most optimum gear configuration to benefit both myself and the people I was going to be raiding with. Because I refuse to LFR, I found some ToT pugs and Tried to fill in the blanks with what gear I could. Most importantly, I made sure I was ready to raid on this toon so that I could be considerate enough to not waste other peoples time. Best part is, I did all of that in what little time I had to play instead of doing the minimum and expecting other people to do the rest of the work for me.
And sir, I mean no disrespect to you personally, but the attitude I kind of see in your posts and others that seem to share your opinion is a part of the overall problem here. That problem is Self-Entitlement. Everyone expects everything to just get handed to them now while putting in the very least amount of effort possible. This attitude is prevalent everywhere in WoW now. I'm not sure if LFR/D started this phenomena or if its just a greater symptom of our declining state but it's a serious problem and until both sides of the argument stop being so self-entitled this community will continue to go downhill. In the above quoted example, I don't think you may see how you may be coming off as a slight bit self-entitled. It's not other peoples responsibility to ensure that you get to join their raid group, it's yours. I see a lot of people bitching about how other peoples high ilevel requirement for flex wings make that content unavailable to them as a replacement or viable next step in progression from lfr. To this, I have to call bullshit. The truly nice thing about flex, and even normal, is that even if you cant find a group you are free to create one of your own using the same means available to the rest of the community. With about 2 minutes of "work" you could list a raid on Oqueue with a lower ilevel requirement and even have the description read that it's more forgiving or more open. Judging by the amount of people that are apparently in the same situation as you are you should have no problem finding a group with which to move into flex or normal.
To me, this is where LFR may have failed the community and helped to perpetuate the attitude; Giving personalized loot regardless of effort, contribution, and even participation. You literally have to do nothing to collect the same shiny purples that people who do a lot of work to receive get. Don't get my wrong, I'm pro LFR for a couple of reasons; LFR has slowly become the most toxic community in any video game I have every played in my entire life. It's slowly overtaking League of Legends, and that's a feat in it's own. I have no desire to ever participate in that community ever again and I'm glad LFR is around to keep most of those toxic people from spilling into most of the other ways I choose to spend my time. Two, I do believe that for casual players who don't want to put the time or effort into more difficult raiding LFR is a good place to at least be able to see and participate in that content. So I don't think that lfr should go away, but I do think that LFR needs a new role;
What I think the role of LFR should be is to allow those players who have no time or desire to better themselves as players and/or the people that cant seem to find the time to flex a way to see and experience the content and get their candies handed to them. To that extent I think that the difficulty of LFR should be reduced to a level that is incredibly easy and forgiving. I was fond of the idea of making LFR almost like a 25m scenario where you didn't even need to worry about proper raid composition to complete it. This would allow players the opportunity to experience the content and likely decrease the toxicity of the environment by removing wipe fests and other nerdrage triggers in lfr. It would also allow the people who don't care about shinies that just want to see the content a way to do it without wanting to pull their hair out.
As for loot, I do not believe that LFR should award Epic quality items. I think it should award the same quality gear as heroic dungeons, or at the very least blue versions of raid quality items. I say this for a couple reasons; 1.) because it will help act as a carrot on a stick to motivated people into flex and other modes where they can acquire such gear and 2.) Because, with the self-entitlement or raiders aside, I do believe that the people who put the effort and time into being good at their class, learning the fights, and taking on the challenge of more difficult content deserve to be rewarded. Sadly, I don't think your ever going to take away peoples need to feel like a beautiful and unique snowflake. Luckily, flex has given us a way to cater to both crowds while still providing a middle ground for true "casuals". And LFR heroes, before you jump in with the hate, please keep in mind that flex mode raiding is not terribly more difficult than current LFR raiding and that you can form a flex group in about the same amount of time it takes to wait out an lfr queue. That's what makes flex so perfect for true "casuals" because we can form a group at almost any time and complete it just like we would a wing of lfr.
Nothing, casual players need to slowly die off... they make things to easy and boring, they really ruin the game. e.g they make a game rated 18 to be like a game rated for 3 year olds, that's how easy casuals want it.
Well what do casualas usually do ? Collect strange stuff, make pet battles, wipe in non heroic 5man instances.
Ecce homo ergo elk
Remove LFR and make flex slightly easier. This would:
1) Allow even the bad "casuals" to get through it if they bother to find a group
2) Build server communities and get people interracting with each others again
Also make more challenging 5mans with slightly better rewards to make the progression curve smoother, kinda like the troll dungeons in 4.1 (during t11)
So ding max level > dungeons > HC dungeons > 'elite' dungeons > flex raid > normal > HC
Furthermore, if you are a competent player you have a better chance of positively influencing the outcome of a 5 man dungeon run compared to a 25 man raid. That seems like it would make for a more fun and less frustrating experience.
And like I said everyone can start a group by pressing a button.
If LFR worked people wouldn't change to flex and you wouldn't have 1 hour queues on wednesdays and need 4 hours to clear a wing and that after several nerfs.
All I read is: we need good players to carry new players through it. And then you want to claim LFR is fine? Whatever. Enjoy the LFR nerfs.
- - - Updated - - -
I guess the same folks whining about doing the same 16 dungeons in wrath must be OVER FUCKING JOYED that they get to do the same shitty fucking raid on potentially 4 difficulties WITH LITTLE TO NO OTHER FUCKING CONTENT for 6+ months. Yep. That's a much better situation today alright. Running those same 16 dungeons was fucking A MILLION times better.
Give us 12 boss raids on a raid patch and 2 dungeons with 3/4 bosses each. With the increase in developers I think its a real possibility to do so.
That gives casual players a choice to do raid or dungeon content or both. I do disagree with you thinking its the same shitty raid, all of the raids this expansion have been fantastic imo. I know you hate raids and prefer dungeons and can agree the lack of dungeons this expansion has been tragic.
WoW is business.
Blizzards top responsibility, as a company, is to make as much money as possible - one of the key factors to this is making sure your products are high quality and can accommodate a wide variety of people/players.
Asking for LFR to be removed is absolute nonsense - LFR is THE MOST PLAYED form/type of raiding at the moment.
LFR is more used than normal, it is more used than heroic, and it is definitely more used than flex.
Not to mention that a lot of LFR users are players who can only do LFR, and can't do any of the more demanding raid modes.
Asking from Blizzard to remove their most utilized end game PvE raiding mode (LFR) makes as much sense as asking a doctor to stop healing people and instead go fix an airplane engine...
LFR is here to stay - permanently. I don't fancy LFR, i rarely run LFR - but i completely understand why that super-easy mode of raiding is necessary for WoW to maintain high subscriber-base so they can afford high quality content.
Timewalking - ALL dungeons/raids in WoW available at any time (LFD matchmaking style)!