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  1. #621
    I never understood some people don't want others to get access to the content they have in the first place:

    In other Games, like starcraft I never heared pros saying something along the liens of "The maps we play our tournaments on should not be available for play on non-pros Versions of starcraft" or I'm seeing regular Dota1&2 Games, tournament coverages, and read player interviews but no one ever said something like "That Hero should only be available to pick by pros, in casual games it shouldn't be pickable".

    Even in WoW PvP, no one says "people with low rating should never see this one Arena or that Battleground". Only in WoW PvE related topics some people have the opinion that certain content should be harder to access.


    OT: I definitely believe that there should be more (group) content for players to do outside of raiding, especially questing should be tweaked so that groups of people don't slow each other down.
    Capitalism, Ho!

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'm not convinced. Like I'm sure some people will do it but look at what flex alone has done to lfr already. Now imagine adding an actual alternative for lfr. Like I said in the current iteration of the game LFR works fairly well, prior to flex extremely well because it scooped up everybody. Once you start offering them alternatives (flex as an alternative raiding and dungeons or some other form of alternative casual progression at end game) then LFR is not as strong any more. I don't think they should get rid of it mind you even in that scenario but the real strength of lfr is that it remains largely untouched and has largely no competition at max level and the developers KNOW this. They designed it like this.
    Flex has done nothing to LFR. If you believe the developers they say the participation in LFR is the same or at least roughly the same. They did say there was an issue with queuing that might be a bug.

    Do not over estimate flex, while its great a lot of people will do LFR over flex for the simple reason that they don't have to meet random requirements set by other players. As a pug leader you want a smooth run. You don't want billy no mates whos barely geared for it.

    Sure if you added a wrath style dungeon catch up it might affect LFR but I don't think it would be as bad as you make out. Give players the choice and lets see what happens. I would be more than happy to have a dungeon catch up (and new dungeons!) along with LFR so I can login choose which method I want that day and have my fun.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I'm pretty sure if Method, Midwinter and Blood Legion all went on strike at the start I next expansion Blizzard would scramble to get them back. Why? Because they are the players who have stayed here for a long time. The ones who don't quit because they have bad loot luck or got nerfed.
    i have been playing since sept 2006.. and never taken any "break" and i dont think blizzard would give a dam if i left the game

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  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You won't get good answers, because anyone saying that LFR should be removed simply hasn't thought the issue all the way through, or hasn't been playing long enough to realize that when the game DID have more dungeons, folks got utterly sick of running them, and you had just as many complaints flying around. (just about different topics).

    While the game should certainly have more dungeons, and hopefully good ones next time around, LFR isn't, and shouldn't, be going anywhere.
    wow took the words right out of my mouth

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    So what you're telling me is it's their own fault. They're still repeating the same raids over and over and over with no real sense nor urgency to progress to the next level because.... that's right the next level is still the same raid.
    Either they are repeating the same raid three times week on different difficulties or they are not progressing to the next level, you take a break, think on it a while and decide which one of these you are going to settle on.

  6. #626
    Dreadlord Icaras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Maybe if they aren't devoted players try don't belong in this type of game...

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

    Oh my goodness, you posted that as if you were serious. Yes, I'm sure Blizzard don't want people to stay in the game to pay subs, they only want people that are "devoted enough to belong".

    I'm also sure that when you go to do some content and your regulars aren't available...I bet you'll be glad spamming trade and/or openraid for multiple hours with no luck. Because hey, those people were like....pugs, casuals....they weren't DEVOTED ENOUGH TO BELONG...and anyway, you didn't really want to raid anyway, you LIKE copy/pasting a shout for pugs in trade....
    Last edited by Icaras; 2013-11-01 at 12:29 PM.
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  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Icaras View Post
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

    Oh my goodness, you posted that as if you were serious. Yes, i'm sure Blizzard don't want people to stay in the game to pay subs, they only want people that are devoted enough to belong.

    I'm also sure that when you go to do some content and some of your regulars aren't available...I bet you'll be glad spamming trade and/or for multiple hours with no luck. Because hey, those people were pugs, casuals....they weren't DEVOTED ENOUGH TO BELONG...and anyway, you didn't really want to raid anyway, you LIKE copy/pasting a shout for pugs in trade....
    As far as I am concerned if you are devoted enough to pay a sub in the age of F2P (also known as nickle and dime you to death) then they are devoted enough for me.

    People who call for 80% of the playerbase to quit the game because they are not as devoted are nuts, you might as well go back in time and execute your own parents before you are conceived. Calling for the end of LFR to protect precious purples from casuals when LFR allows blizzard to dump 100% of its post-leveling resources into raiding content is also insane. It ranks right up there with living on welfare because you dont like working, prefering fox news and voting republican because Republicans will straight up tell you they will end welfare if they get the shot at it. I’ve heard that shooting oneself in the face is common when people are stupid enough to look down the barrel to see if it is clean.

  8. #628
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I am curretly doing heroic raiding by trial and error, always have and always will as I do not like the idea of reading up on stuff as that feels like cheating to me. What you need to keep in mind is that when the top guilds reach all the bosses, there is nothing to study or read up on, trial and error is the only way.
    Pretty much every first kill video you see has DBM running, and the top guilds have forum posts committed to learning and discussing tactics. Arguing that it's pure "trial and error" isn't quite as accurate as you're making it out to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I also really do not see why you cant get high rated PvP without studying.
    It's about looking up helpful macros, composition tactics, map specific attack points or learning about other classes and compositions without having to physically play them all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    People can run 5 mans repeatedly in the same day for loot. You can not for LFR so people only went into them once or twice a week (counting on queueing into first or later boss). Those 6 other days a week of not doing that wing tend to keep you from burning out on it.
    In the TBC and Wrath endgame models, most people only did their daily heroic for Badges/Valor. 7 dungeons or 1 LFR run per week is probably a similar time investment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Maybe there needs to be something in place as the overall endgame that you are thinking about doing after the raid while you are raiding. As it stands now, there isn't much of an endgame outside of raiding, but maybe they need to invent something new, the only downside is that if it is too competitive with raiding it might result in nobody wanting to raid.
    So you think many people are only raiding now not because they enjoy it, but because its the only way to progress their character? Interesting

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    It was the same thing with totc with its 4 modes people felt that they HAD to gear in all the lesser modes to get ready for a heroic mode or some shit.

    Now you may have had a break and did not do the first tier and then wanted to join in on normal tot runs in a guild pug. I can understand that there were not that many great ways of gearing up aside from LFR. If however you were in a guild and were doing LFR just to maximize your gear chances then that's a personal problem rather than a game design one.
    It was a game design issue with ToC because you needed Emblems to buy Tier 9, and running as many modes of ToC as possible was the quickest way to get it. They largely fixed this problem in Cataclysm by putting a weekly cap of Emblems/Valor, so you could get capped on Valor from whatever your main raid was, plus a few dungeon runs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Either they are repeating the same raid three times week on different difficulties or they are not progressing to the next level, you take a break, think on it a while and decide which one of these you are going to settle on.
    Yep. Its LFR or no character progression. Because you're not posting in a 32 page thread FILLED with suggestions on alternative character progression methods.

    Honestly, you raiding uber alles elitists make me sad.

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    In the TBC and Wrath endgame models, most people only did their daily heroic for Badges/Valor. 7 dungeons or 1 LFR run per week is probably a similar time investment.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So you think many people are only raiding now not because they enjoy it, but because its the only way to progress their character? Interesting

    - - - Updated - - -



    It was a game design issue with ToC because you needed Emblems to buy Tier 9, and running as many modes of ToC as possible was the quickest way to get it. They largely fixed this problem in Cataclysm by putting a weekly cap of Emblems/Valor, so you could get capped on Valor from whatever your main raid was, plus a few dungeon runs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yep. Its LFR or no character progression. Because you're not posting in a 32 page thread FILLED with suggestions on alternative character progression methods.

    Honestly, you raiding uber alles elitists make me sad.
    The game design was fine, it was player greed/self control that was the issue. Players will simply BURN through content as quickly as they can. Blizzard has gated content for years as a result of things like this. Hell Totc had gating on bosses being released per week :/ As a result that raid is detested by me!

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    In the TBC and Wrath endgame models, most people only did their daily heroic for Badges/Valor. 7 dungeons or 1 LFR run per week is probably a similar time investment.
    And how often did they create new dungeons for TBC/wrath in comparison to MoP? How often did new raid content drop TBC/Wrath in comparison to MoP? How many dungeons did they have in TBC/Wrath in comparison to MoP? How long did you get stuck in Final Tier Wrath? Did they expend all post-leveling resources only on raiding content or did they have to make things for the casuals to do as well?

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    And you are not paying attention now I guess?

    And if that was really a problem then how come you think it's a good idea to do the exact same with raids?
    I don't think it's a good idea. I'm pointing out that folks who are know waxing nostalgic about how people loved having dungeons, and no viable form of raiding outside of pugging if they weren't willing to schedule time for guild participation, actually are.

    Just the opposite happened, and Blizzard tried something different in response to it.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  13. #633
    well, its not that hard to gear up a character.
    My warrior got 90 1 month ago and is 537 ilvl.

    11 LFR kills, 3 items.
    15 flex kills, 2 items.

    The rest is world bosses, timeless, crafted and normal ToT. So.. if LFR was removed, ye sure i might be few ilvls lower, but if you put in a little bit of effort it really isnt hard to get to a decent ilvl and get into pugs.

    But thats the problem i guess, players wants everything on a silver platter, not having to work for it (like us that started at mop launched and been going at it tier after tier).

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    And how often did they create new dungeons for TBC/wrath in comparison to MoP? How often did new raid content drop TBC/Wrath in comparison to MoP? How many dungeons did they have in TBC/Wrath in comparison to MoP? How long did you get stuck in Final Tier Wrath? Did they expend all post-leveling resources only on raiding content or did they have to make things for the casuals to do as well?
    Copy pasting from my earlier post...
    Yes, but TBC STARTED with more 5 mans than any expansion to date.
    TBC had Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, Shattered Halls, Slave Pens, Underbog, Steamvaults, Mana Tombs, Auch Crypts, Sethekk Halls, Shadow Labyrinth, Arcatraz, Mechanar, Botanica, Durnhole, Dark Portal. FIFTEEN dungeons. Plus Magister's Terrace tagged on in the final patch.

    Wrath had Utgarde Keep and Pinnacle, Halls of Stone, Halls of Lightning, Draktharon Keep, Gundrak, The Nexus(?), The Oculus, Violet Hold, Old Stratholme, Azjol-Nerub and Ahn'Kahet. Twelve dungeons. Plus the Horsie Arena one, then the 3 ICC ones. Whaddya know, the same number as TBC.

    But the clever thing was, TBC's dungeons weren't all the same difficulty. So when I started doing them in Patch 2.1, I'd only run Mechanar, Slave Pens, Underbog, Ramparts. Then as the average gear level went up due to better badge gear, more Kara pugs and better pvp gear, I started doing the harder heroics as well.

    Between that and some pvp there was quite a bit to do even without raiding. Heroic 5 mans were damned fun then. They were less friendly to bad players, but they were more friendly to time limited players because the overall clear time was less.

    And both expansions had sixteen dungeons PLUS some excellent raiding content, enough to keep my subbed for all of Wrath and TBC as a hardcore raider. And when I wasn't raiding, 5mans were a far more casual friendly experience than raids.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I'm pretty sure if Method, Midwinter and Blood Legion all went on strike at the start I next expansion Blizzard would scramble to get them back. Why? Because they are the players who have stayed here for a long time. The ones who don't quit because they have bad loot luck or got nerfed.
    At the start of DS, Blizz banned most of them for abusing LFR looting glitches, and not much of a shit was given :S

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Fearin View Post
    But thats the problem i guess, players wants everything on a silver platter, not having to work for it.
    Last night one of my guildies said after defeating Immersius :" Stupid boss, why do we have to kill him every week. Why can't there just be a box with loot in it?"
    So Blizzard, read this, this will keep the casuals, who don't "have the time to gear characters", but actually sit in cities the who day, telling everyone how they are have life and others don't, happy.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Fearin View Post
    well, its not that hard to gear up a character.
    My warrior got 90 1 month ago and is 537 ilvl.

    11 LFR kills, 3 items.
    15 flex kills, 2 items.

    The rest is world bosses, timeless, crafted and normal ToT. So.. if LFR was removed, ye sure i might be few ilvls lower, but if you put in a little bit of effort it really isnt hard to get to a decent ilvl and get into pugs.

    But thats the problem i guess, players wants everything on a silver platter, not having to work for it (like us that started at mop launched and been going at it tier after tier).
    Well not everyone has a time machine to go back to the beginning of mop and stay in a raiding group, and on openraid they had one group that actually went back and did tot and they were short handed at a time when I could not join them.

    I hate to bust the truth to you but LFR doesn't hand you rewards without working for it, can someone do nothing? Yeah but the majority of the people in there are working for it and they are working more than they would have to if they didn't have to drag an afk across the finish line. Saying you dont have to work for it is like you got flipped off on the highway after being cut off and so you go around telling everyone that no one knows how to drive and everyone is awful behind the wheel but you passed 300 other cars that abided by the rules of the road but you don't remember those people.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Pretty much every first kill video you see has DBM running, and the top guilds have forum posts committed to learning and discussing tactics. Arguing that it's pure "trial and error" isn't quite as accurate as you're making it out to be.
    Having internal discussions on how to best approach a fight is not really considered studying in my eyes. In every sport or team activity I have ever done in my life, I have always had to participate in discussions within the group on how to improve ourselves at whatever we are doing to get the best result.

    Do you think any football team just shows up and randomly kick the ball? Of course not, they discuss tactics and play patterns both on and off the field.


    I also do not see how using a boss mod is interfering with the trial and error method. It is a tool and sometimes having timers is useful. Personally I have it installed but dont even use it for most fights.

    Immerseus HC - Dont ever look at the boss timers, nothing to look at.
    Protectors HC - Dont ever look at the boss timers, boss is % based anyway.
    Norushen HC - Dont ever look at the boss timers, has 0 mechanics, only enrage timer is relevant for progressing guilds
    Pride HC - Sometimes look at the timer left to the tank debuff to be able to taunt faster and imprison. But mostly dont, just run on the feels. Boss major ability is tracked with energy anyway.
    Galakras HC - Dont ever look at the timers, guess it can be useful if you are shooting down the boss to know how long it is left to the next add wave.
    Iron Jugg HC - Dont ever look at the boss timers, boss is energy based between the phases and no real abilities to pay attention to.
    Dark Shams HC - As a tank having timer for Ashen Wall is really helpful, other than that I do not look at any timers on this fight.
    Nazgrim HC - I dont even look at the decapitate timer on this fight, just play on the feels. Nothing to really have the timers for.
    Malkorok HC - Entire boss is rage based, no need to ever look at timers really. I rarely look at timers to check when the next add spawns, but as raid members call out when they spawn an add, it is not really needed.
    Spoils HC - Nothing to have timers for.
    Thok HC - Nothing to have timers for.
    Siegecrafter HC - Timers was nice in the beginning when learning the fight to see the exact time to a few abilities such as electromagnetic smash and overloads. But after having 350 wipes on that fight, everything is just done on automation, the timers are in my head now and everything works as clockwork.
    Paragons HC - Timers are nice on quite a few abilities but nothing major that it is 100% needed. I play this fight on my gut feeling when abilities is going to come out.
    Garrosh HC - Not really much to keep timers for. This entire fight is just a clockwork machine spinning. Having the exact time left to the next empowered whirling corruption is helpful for timing CDs.

    But honestly, having a boss mod is a tool, not a necessity. But why would you not have it for those 1/25 chance that you actually really really need it?
    I see nothing different with aquiring boss mod than our players were required to get hand glue when playing handball to get better grip on the ball. You simply put a bit of special glue on your hand designed for playing handball and it helps you to catch the ball easier and grip it easier if your hands are small. That was nothing that was provided at every game, it was nothing that was 100% required to throw the ball, but it was expected of the players as it gave you a minor edge and advantage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    It's about looking up helpful macros, composition tactics, map specific attack points or learning about other classes and compositions without having to physically play them all.
    When I PvPed I made the few macros I wanted myself. Composition tactics should be fairly obvious to figure out and learning about other classes is not exactly hard either. You can learn all this by just playing the game, studying up a bit can for sure be helpful, but again, you can learn all that by just playing if you have a decent attention span. After playing against a retri paladin, bm hunter + healer 10 times, I would be quite stupid to not figure out that their comp revolves around popping all CDs at the same time and bursting someone down and that as a resto druid, it is probably my best bet to have my CDs up when their DPSers pop their CDs to counter that. It is not really rocket science.

    Playing with whatever arena partners I had, it is also not that hard to figure out what their strengths and weaknesses are to figure out our composition tactics.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #639
    Dreadlord
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    Have 2 unique raids each release with the same theme, one that is easy and uses the Flex technology, and one that is hard requiring heroic skills to complete. The current tiers end boss will be in the harder one, while the easier one will share its theme. Then when the next tier hits these two raids will be scaled down to 5-man dungeons and the non-set loot will be redistributed to all Heroic dungeons. All dungeons (and dungeonified raids) ever created will be scaled for max level, so for each patch, each expansion, as time goes by, the content for casuals to run random dungeons will forever increase. And the loot table will forever evolve. The feeling of endlessness will return to the game as the "last boss" will be an enigma and out-of-reach for most of the playerbase (until that raid is dungeonized the following tier, but then a new "end boss" will exist). But all the environmental and model design work that Blizzard has done for this raid will still be seen and used by all casual players, and even in coming expansions when running random dungeons. Solved.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    Have 2 unique raids each release with the same theme, one that is easy and uses the Flex technology, and one that is hard requiring heroic skills to complete. The current tiers end boss will be in the harder one, while the easier one will share its theme. Then when the next tier hits these two raids will be scaled down to 5-man dungeons and the non-set loot will be redistributed to all Heroic dungeons. All dungeons (and dungeonified raids) ever created will be scaled for max level, so for each patch, each expansion, as time goes by, the content for casuals to run random dungeons will forever increase. And the loot table will forever evolve. The feeling of endlessness will return to the game as the "last boss" will be an enigma and out-of-reach for most of the playerbase (until that raid is dungeonized the following tier, but then a new "end boss" will exist). But all the environmental and model design work that Blizzard has done for this raid will still be seen and used by all casual players, and even in coming expansions when running random dungeons. Solved.
    Not solved. Allowing casuals to experience the content one content drop later means they will never fight garrosh until the next expansion and by then people will be doing the new content. Current system allows all players to do dungeons in first tier and raid content, your hack version would half their content for one drop until something new came along. If you think this is a good ideal then I suggest an experiment, next expansion you only do dungeons in 6.0 and refuse any raid content, then in 6.2 you will be allowed to do 6.0 LFR and dungeons, then in 6.4 you can do 6.2 LFR and dungeons, and not do any 6.4 content ever because then you will only be allowed to do dungeons in 7. Then once 7.0 comes out you can come here and tell us all how much you enjoyed it so that is proof that it will work for everyone else. Its like bitching about flying mounts but refusing to only use ground mounts unless everyone is forced to do it. You do it and see how much you actually enjoy it.

    One advantage to lfr is that you can gear up your alts in LFR so if your raid needs 1 less healer and 1 more dps you can switch characters and keep on raiding with your guild. Under your mismanagement that alt would always be 1 tier behind. Its a fail. Most bosses would have to be gutted due to not having 2 tanks, so fights would become massively easier and people already bitch that you can gear up for less effort than a raider, you going to give out good rewards for even less effort? Good thing you don't work for Blizzard.
    Last edited by DeadmanWalking; 2013-11-01 at 02:26 PM.

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