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  1. #701
    I don't really care about LFR, or what you do with it.

    Just stop forcing me to do it.

  2. #702
    Why did you have to screw up a perfectly reasonable post with this? I don't see this problem. I've never seen anyone demanding heroic gear for running LFR. If anything, it's the other way around. I always see players complaining about people getting purples from LFR. It's not self-entitled to expect for a subscription game to continue to provide your main character with a progression path on your schedule in order to continue paying that subscription. Otherwise what's the point? Just unsub and wait for next expansion, at which point the level cap will be raised again and you'll have a means of making your main character more powerful. That's not entitlement; that's simple logic.

    LFR players are stuck with gear in the 520s while Heroic players are at 570+. With very few exceptions, LFR players seem to be OK with that. Besides, this is a game. Stuff gets handed to you with minimal effort all the time. Are you telling me that anyone can swing a sword competently with only a couple of hours of training in real life? Do crops spring up overnight after you plant them? Does weeding an entire farm really take < 5 minutes? Of course not! This stuff only happens in games. What do you care if someone gets handed a purple shirt that's 50 ilevels lower than yours for putting in two hours a week of play time? How is that a symptom of entitlement?
    I think you missed my point. This self-entitlement is prevalent on both sides of the argument. Let me give you some examples;

    1.) MANY heroric and normal raiders feel like they are the only ones that should be entitled to experience end game raiding content. Those same players also feel entitled to having blizzards special attention when it comes to development because they are some of the few, albeit egotistical, players capable of completing such content. I see a lot of Heroic Raiders that act like they are the Rockstars of WoW. The problem with this attitude is that Wow is such a story-rich and beautiful game. When I didn't raid I was sad that I never at least got to see the main antagonists at the time. Many people play this game for the story or because of the story(myself included) and I think that their 15 dollars does purchase them at least the right to see how the story develops.

    2.)Many LFR Heroes feel like they are entitled to receiving the same benefits as Flex and above raiders.(I.E. gear/achievements/mounts/etc) On Top of that one of the biggest complaints I hear is about rng and how every boss should drop them an item and that it should auto-detect which items they already have so they don't get duplicates. Basically, they should take bosses that are already purple vending machines and make them even more-so. While I don't have a problem with anyone getting a purple, I do have a problem with them getting a purple by sitting around a city for 45 minutes and then sitting around an instance for another 45. Epics in this game, even after vanilla, used to be something that you used to have to put some work into getting. And the best epics required you to put forth more effort. Seeing someone in full epics was awesome, not just because it motivated me to go get them, but because it added a layer of epicness to the game that no longer exists anymore. And, at least it meant that the person had worked for and earned those epics. Now, Everyone just wants shit handed to them with the minimal amount of work necessary and when they don't get it, they talk about how their 15 dollars a month entitles them to have everything in the game available to them instantly. The only sense of working towards anything for most people is clicking on the LFR button a couple times a week and then Zombieing their way through content that you could teach a 5 year old to finish.

    For me, the legendary chain is a very good example of something that any player in this game to do that requires work, commitment, and at least a little know how(to clear the scenarios) that rewards a player that sticks with it and works towards completing the quest. Although I'm sure that next xpac we will just have to go talk to wrathion and wait 45m for our new legendary, for at least this xpac blizzard has created a pretty decent way of making a very good item available to anyone willing to put in the work.

    The real problem is that people need to stop thinking that the game solely belongs to them, is developed for them, and exists to create fun for only them and start thinking about what's best for everyone and the game as a whole. As a community we should be willing to compromise and come to solutions together that in the long term will benefit everyone instead of being so fucking selfish. We also need to understand that just because we pay 15 dollars a month to play this game doesn't mean that the game should just instantaneously offer up everything it has to offer at a moments whim. But, considering the state of our country, the world, and many of the people inhabiting it, I'd wager that you would have more luck screaming at a wall for civility and intelligence then trying to get the community to do anything more than fall further into decadence.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    Then these people should uninstall the game. You said it best:
    Agreed. If nothing else in game is keeping you subscribed, I don't see how an extra few dungeons (like the ones you consumed at record speed at level cap) will hold you.

    It comes down to this bullshit idea that $15 dollars entitles you for everything you think you paid for (which they're probably using for future expansions and other titles anyways).

    And that's not to say there shouldn't be any content outside of raiding since the servers still need player activity outside of raid times.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    Then these people should uninstall the game.
    You say that, but the day that happens is the day your sub rates triple and/or the development staff for WoW is cut in half.

    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    People who don't raid, don't do guild stuff, hardly ever have the time to play said game...I'm sorry, but there is no market for you in this game.
    I think that Blizzard is coming to that conclusion after watching subs plummet for three quarters. However, I don't think they're so gleeful about it as you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    An MMO resolves around time spent...the more you play the game the more you get out of it.
    Not really. In SWTOR I can pay for just about anything and immediately overtake the guy who spent time instead. MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online, not rewards for time spent. If you want to be rewarded for spending time there's a job out there that's beckoning to you. You don't get rewarded for screwing around in a computer game... sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    LFR is just shit... I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gr4vitas View Post
    I don't really care about LFR, or what you do with it.

    Just stop forcing me to do it.
    Who is forcing you?
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post

    Who is forcing you?
    Most likely, he feels forced to do it so he can qualify for flex groups.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by LegionPrime View Post
    2.)Many LFR Heroes feel like they are entitled to receiving the same benefits as Flex and above raiders.(I.E. gear/achievements/mounts/etc)
    Show me one. I doubt you can. I have never seen any LFR player demanding the same achievements and mounts as flex, let alone normal or heroic raiders.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Most likely, he feels forced to do it so he can qualify for flex groups.
    Timeless isle+burden=higher iLvL than LFR. If you're good enough to raid current flex you're good enough to raid ToT normal which can give you a wep and trinket just 6ilvl below current LFR.

    So "qualifying for flex" doesn't seem like a legitimate excuse to me unless there's some weird flex group out there spamming "must have beat on LFR" but I have yet to see such a thing.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    Timeless isle+burden=higher iLvL than LFR. If you're good enough to raid current flex you're good enough to raid ToT normal which can give you a wep and trinket just 6ilvl below current LFR.

    So "qualifying for flex" doesn't seem like a legitimate excuse to me unless there's some weird flex group out there spamming "must have beat on LFR" but I have yet to see such a thing.
    I should have rephrased then. Assuming he has a fresh 90 that he wants to progress with, you aren't hitting an acceptable ilvl for flex mode without a very high amount of luck. And there aren't, from what I see, a whole lot of pugs or guilds interested in running ToT normal at this point.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Show me one. I doubt you can. I have never seen any LFR player demanding the same achievements and mounts as flex, let alone normal or heroic raiders.
    I honestly have a problem finding any of the players he describes. I have never seen any hardcore player say "Waaaa waaa I want to be a special snowflake content is mine!", just as I have not seen any LFLoot Hero saying they want the same gear or whatever as other raid modes. I have however seen people complain that you do not get ahead of the curve and the mount in LFR. But honestly, they are in such a minority not even worth mentioning. If you disregard the standard trolls that pop up in all the LFLoot Hero vs Hardcore thread, most people are actually sensible and neither the hardcore nor LFLoot stereotype are common in my eyes.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #710
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Most likely, he feels forced to do it so he can qualify for flex groups.
    Do you or anyone else here really believe that LFR gear has any bearing on whether or not one can qualify for flex groups? Perhaps as part of his guild if they're doing flex runs but certainly very few outside of that. I don't think that anyone is being forced to run LFR at this point. I'm not certain that they ever were except between their ears.

    EDIT: Saw your reply. I'm not convinced but perhaps. I still think most talk about being forced to do anything is self-imposed martyrdom.
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  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    EDIT: Saw your reply. I'm not convinced but perhaps. I still think most talk about being forced to do anything is self-imposed martyrdom.
    Theirs a VERY easy way to correct that and at one point it's something the developers did basically on the grounds that people felt forced to run both 10 and 25 man versions of wotlk raids. I don't agree it's necessarily a good idea but I mean if you offered better catch up and gear outside the raid then you wouldn't have this "I feel forced to do lfr mishegoes". It's actually a very valid complaint since the alternatives are so piss poor and designed to be pissed poor. Of course then the most AMAZING THING would happen. People would NOT DO LFR.....
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-02 at 06:10 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #712
    Mechagnome Steampunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr4vitas View Post
    I don't really care about LFR, or what you do with it.

    Just stop forcing me to do it.
    I LFR every week and haven't ever been forced into it. If you're talking about gearing up, enter the Timeless Isle and Valor/Justice grinds. I didn't LFR on my tank out of fear. I ran enough faction to get badge loot. Now you don't even need the faction, for the most part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Basmothel
    Lacking ammo, the forum troll darts into the realm of personal insults and doomsaying; the most primitive means of gaining attention from its peers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyadore View Post
    You know something, none of us ruined the game. We make it better. And so do most of you.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Theirs a VERY easy way to correct that and at one point it's something the developers did basically on the grounds that people felt forced to run both 10 and 25 man versions of wotlk raids. I don't agree it's necessarily a good idea but I mean if you offered better catch up and gear outside the raid then you wouldn't have this I feel forced to do lfr mishegoes. Of course then the most AMAZING THING would happen. People would NOT DO LFR.....
    You mean like they already have in place?

    I should have rephrased then. Assuming he has a fresh 90 that he wants to progress with, you aren't hitting an acceptable ilvl for flex mode without a very high amount of luck. And there aren't, from what I see, a whole lot of pugs or guilds interested in running ToT normal at this point.
    People having outrageous requirements for flex does not mean that he's forced to do lfr.

    You don't need a high amount of luck. Better luck would make it faster certainly, but time is the main limiting factor in this situation.

  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allarius View Post
    You mean like they already have in place?
    Hardly. The random shitty loot you get from the burden is well random and shitty. The valor vendors still require rep iirc? So either way your doing lfr. If you miss out on lfr then your just hamstringing yourself for no fucking reason other then you hate lfr which is fine but to act like the game isn't designed to compel the player in the direction of lfr is ignorant. Give me a justice vendor with ToT normal gear and a valor vendor with SoO normal gear and NO obnoxious rep requirement and I'll never touch lfr or feel like I need to. That's the point of lfr. It's designed to make people feel like they need to so that raid content gets used up by more people. If it awarded less than last tiers raid you could make the case it wasn't "forced" on the community as well but it does. Subsequently the groups running older raids are harder to come by.

    ALL OF THIS could be fixed by a very VERY VERY simple reversion of the changes made to the justice and valor vendors. They gutted those systems for no reasons and instead made a bigger head ache for themselves.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-02 at 06:17 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Hardly. The random shitty loot you get from the burden is well random and shitty. The valor vendors still require rep iirc? So either way your doing lfr. If you miss out on lfr then your just hamstringing yourself for no fucking reason other then you hate lfr which is fine but to act like the game isn't designed to compel the player in the direction of lfr is ignorant. Give me a justice vendor with ToT normal gear and a valor vendor with SoO normal gear and NO obnoxious rep requirement and I'll never touch lfr or feel like I need to. That's the point of lfr. It's designed to make people feel like they need to so that raid content gets used up by more people.
    So they give you loot, but because it's "random" it mean it's bad. They gave you a perfectly good option, if you refuse to use it, that's not them forcing you.

    Ignorant? lol. Irony much?

    Obviously you haven't tried using these methods or you'd realize how stupid you sounds for saying you're forced to do lfr to gear.

    I have a warlock that's 516 ilvl that hasn't done any lfr more than 2 times(There are a couple bosses that were killed 3 times) and most of those were run weeks ago. Forgot to mention that The only normal runs done with that char were one MSV and 3/4 in Terrace. Considering the ilvl of the gear, it's irrelevant anyway.

    This is with only one timeless piece(The gaurenteed burden you get).

    I'm not going to continue this as it's clear you have no concept of what you're talking about.

  16. #716
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allarius View Post
    So they give you loot, but because it's "random" it mean it's bad. They gave you a perfectly good option, if you refuse to use it, that's not them forcing you.
    .
    Yes often it is very bad. It's not a perfectly good option it's a needless pointless grind coupled with bad rng.

    The simple fact is that if the Burdens of Enternity were any good as an alternative to lfr guess what people would be doing instead of lfr? They aren't clearly. People are still doing lfr quite a bit actually. Now if they gave you a proper justice and valor vendor then yes people would skip lfr but guess what? PEOPLE WOULD SKIP LFR and that's a problem when you want to get as many people running your terrible raid content as you can..

    No system they implement regardless of what people argue on forums will ever been a good alternative to lfr because it will immediately kill lfr and the purpose of lfr which is to get as many people as possible consuming raid content to justify not only the creation of that content but also the near laser like focus the developers have made on it will not be fulfilled. This will go back to making raiding not make much sense on paper or in terms of economics.

    I'm glad you aren't going to continue it. Usually when I'm on the money it has that effect on people.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-02 at 06:30 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #717
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Theirs a VERY easy way to correct that and at one point it's something the developers did basically on the grounds that people felt forced to run both 10 and 25 man versions of wotlk raids. I don't agree it's necessarily a good idea but I mean if you offered better catch up and gear outside the raid then you wouldn't have this "I feel forced to do lfr mishegoes". It's actually a very valid complaint since the alternatives are so piss poor and designed to be pissed poor. Of course then the most AMAZING THING would happen. People would NOT DO LFR.....
    I understand your point although I don't agree 100% with it. In this case, however, the problem seems to be more general. Post histories are enlightening:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gr4vitas View Post
    I don't hate casual content, I just hate being forced to participate in it.
    So there you go. It's more an argument of "Hand me the gear so I can raid at a high level" if I read it right.
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  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes often it is very bad. It's not a perfectly good option it's a needless pointless grind coupled with bad rng.

    The simple fact is that if the Burdens of Enternity were any good as an alternative to lfr guess what people would be doing instead of lfr? They aren't clearly. People are still doing lfr quite a bit actually. Now if they gave you a proper justice and valor vendor then yes people skip but guess what? PEOPLE WOULD SKIP LFR and that's a problem when you want to get as many people running your terrible raid content as you can..

    If you give people the option of doing something once a week and then giving them another option that allows them to continuously go back for more chances, naturally people will flock to the latter. It's really no surprise people would still do LFR even with your supposed system. If I run LFR 5 times a week and use coins on every boss, I going to gear up way faster than you. I'm also spending 5x as much time to do it.

    I now have better gear, but that's because I put in effort to do something. Me putting effort into my character does not somehow negate the effort you put into yours. I am now leaps ahead of you, and it's not my problem if you feel "forced" to run lfr 5 times just to keep up. Your desire to maintain equal power levels is not the same as truly being forced into doing lfr. You'd just be better off doing flex or normal.

  19. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allarius View Post
    It's really no surprise people would still do LFR even with your supposed system.
    No they wouldn't and that's why valor and justice were gutted and that's why we have no more dungeons. If any reward system or content posed as a challenge to LFR then it had to be gutted precisely because the purpose of lfr is to shove and force people into raid content. Ergo any alternatives must be weak or have some serious draw backs so that people will still do lfr.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No they wouldn't and that's why valor and justice were gutted and that's why we have no more dungeons. If any reward system or content posed as a challenge to LFR then it had to be gutted precisely because the purpose of lfr is to shove and force people into raid content. Ergo any alternatives must be weak or have some serious draw backs so that people will still do lfr.

    Your gross oversimplification of things is astounding.

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