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  1. #741
    Legendary! muto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Flex mode is what LFR should have been.



    There are plenty of beginner pugs being created in Flex, you can even create your own group and set your own rules.
    No. Flex is what normal mode should be, but with the difficulty of normal.

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Quixdraw View Post
    LFR was never made to intro mechanics of any kind. LFR exist to give the people that do not want to do organized raiding a chance to see the content that the devs put time in creating for months on end. Blizzard got to the point where they wanted more than just a few seeing the content that was created. If the organized people want to feel special again, then maybe just make the gear a blue color and remove the achievement for clearing the raid content.

    Flex is not a cure to the problem, it is just another means to bypass the trolls in the LFR and even some of those manage to make it into there. Just because someone requires a certain ilvl to get into the group does not mean they are still able to do flex. I see in trade all the time looking for 535 plus ilvl and cloak, like that is very hard to achieve. I have the cloak on 5 toons and at least a 530 ilvl and have yet to step into a flex or normal raid.

    Fact is they can take LFR away, if it shuts up the whining special elites. I am sure many do not need to have fun playing this game. There is more to the game than gear, mounts, and achievements.

    As a side note: LFD and LFR did not ruin the game to the point it is now. It was the community that did it all on its own, even the people that just sit in a major city helped that along. LFD and LFR just further exposed just how bad this community went downhill since wrath.


    The whining taking place on both side has gotten really pathetic to say the least. To me the ones screaming the loudest are those that want to feel special about themselves. Selfish is a word that comes to mind on the many post I read on many threads of this subject. Should people be made to feel envious because someone has nice gear or a special mounts. Well probably if they are that shallow of a person.

    This feel that a few are entitled to some that others should not be, is crap plain and simple. This is game, not real life. Just because I have a few nicer things than my neighbor down the street, does mean I feel superior to them. If you feel entitled to something in a game or you should be one of only a few to have it, then you have some very personal issues outside of this game that you need to deal with.

    I am not saying everyone should be allowed to have everything without putting forth some effort to obtain them. I am saying those that call other people “special snowflakes” are themselves want to be exactly that.
    Blues and Developers stated several times that LFR would serve as a stepping stone into raiding, as well as provide almost anyone with the story content of raiding. From the start it was absolutely designed to introduce mechanics and force a higher degree of communication and organization than that of a dungeon group, though this has unfortunately failed.

    It has nothing to do with anyone feeling special, and everything to do with LFR functioning poorly.

    When you say, "Flex is not a cure to the problem," what problem are you referring to?

    Trolling is inescapable online, and I don't think anyone joins a Flex solely because of trolls even though it is less susceptible to them. (The rest of that paragraph is incoherent in meaning or purpose.)

    The entirety of your post is dripping in preconceived prejudice, and your argument is nothing but ad hominem.

  3. #743
    Am I the only one tired of 'casual' content being forced to be raids? We used to get a raid for raiders and dungeons people could use to upgrade. I don't think i'm really a fan of being forced to run LFR to have fun and get upgrades. I kinda wish we'd see more dungeons/scenarios (which actually require some skill) to level up. I'd rather struggle with bad LFG dungeons/scenarios then deal with the mess that is LFR right now.

  4. #744
    Bloodsail Admiral Shudder's Avatar
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    1. Dungeons.
    2. Warcraft RTS matches you can queue for to earn VP.
    3. Mario Kart like racing with leagues and upgrades.
    4. A casino.

  5. #745
    Maybe it's helpful if I'd post examples of what games I currently am playing instead of WoW:

    1. Dark Souls: Very challenging game with lots of lore and very hard PvE content, I'm relatively new to the game (been playing it for 2 months now) but it's awesome how the game offers you all these PvE challenges and has a proper sense of progression and rewards. You feel your character has grown particularly stronger and all sorts of secrets and hidden treasures and story progression keeps you going back to previous zones.

    2. Diablo 3: Diablo 3 would've been a perfect game if it hadn't been ruined by the AH. It offers challenging group content and nearly endless character progression.

    3. League of Legends: I played ranked and only ranked for many hours every day as it gives me sense of character progression and growing powerful in very intense short action-packed bursts. It also keeps offering me challenge as I try to climb the ladder.

    What do all these games have in common? They're games I can pick up and play when I feel like it. It's sad that WoW can't manage to offer this, because I do love the Warcraft lore and universe and the gameplay mechanics and fluidity as a whole. But there's just nothing to do that compares to the above.
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    It's sad that WoW can't manage to offer this
    It could, but then it wouldn't be an MMO. Much like none of the games you listed.

    If Dark Souls were an MMO, the forums would be shut down with the flood of 'nerf nao' requests. Don't kid yourself.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  7. #747
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    It could, but then it wouldn't be an MMO. Much like none of the games you listed.

    If Dark Souls were an MMO, the forums would be shut down with the flood of 'nerf nao' requests. Don't kid yourself.
    Apparently empathy is a trait long dead among players in this game. You have no right to bitch about the lack of community in the game. You cannot have a community when you lack the ability to empathize with others, especially those who are weaker at this game then you are.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    It could, but then it wouldn't be an MMO. Much like none of the games you listed.

    If Dark Souls were an MMO, the forums would be shut down with the flood of 'nerf nao' requests. Don't kid yourself.
    WoW simply is about raiding and organized content. I don't see a good solution anywhere near that would cater to both sides equally without insulting the other one by doing so. The Hardcore Raiders need the casuals so the Game can keep going. While the Hardcore Raiders do all the PTR work to train for progression and prepare for the new content, thus allowing Blizz to design the content influenced by the feedback Hardcore Raiders give. Hardcore Raiders don't want their content dumbed down to casual content, while Casuals want to do the content when they feel like it. But sadly for the latter it would just kill the "MMO" part out of WoW. It would kill the whole thing about Time Commitment and the last remaining social aspect - doing content with your Guild Mates. And the Social Aspect has been carrying WoW a lot back then. I kinda fear the whole Casuals vs Hardcore Players will be the death of WoW.. rather than Blizz itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Apparently empathy is a trait long dead among players in this game. You have no right to bitch about the lack of community in the game. You cannot have a community when you lack the ability to empathize with others, especially those who are weaker at this game then you are.
    Why should the stronger players empathize to the weaker players? Or am I simply not understanding the point you're making? Empathizing to the demands most casuals have would mean surrendering the last bit of progression and difficulty.

    Edit: Fact is I just can't see why someone would want to play a MMO if he has no interest in Grouping together with other Players in the Community. That's just not what the Game is about. I do get the feeling that Blizz has to do a series of Single-Player sequels to WoW that tell the Story of an expansion for the MMO.
    Last edited by NoNamedPride; 2013-11-03 at 04:20 AM.

  9. #749
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNamedPride View Post

    Why should the stronger players empathize to the weaker players? Or am I simply not understanding the point you're making? Empathizing to the demands most casuals have would mean surrendering the last bit of progression and difficulty.
    I'm not sure you can speak to the demands of most casuals but even if you can it wouldn't necesarilly mean that. It would mean hardcore players have to care about the experience of casual players and not sit atop their ivory towers. Why should they do this? Well if they're interested in a building a community I would suggest the best people to do this are the most skilled among them. If not well then they can watch it all crumble down.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Maybe it's helpful if I'd post examples of what games I currently am playing instead of WoW:

    1. Dark Souls: Very challenging game with lots of lore and very hard PvE content, I'm relatively new to the game (been playing it for 2 months now) but it's awesome how the game offers you all these PvE challenges and has a proper sense of progression and rewards. You feel your character has grown particularly stronger and all sorts of secrets and hidden treasures and story progression keeps you going back to previous zones.

    2. Diablo 3: Diablo 3 would've been a perfect game if it hadn't been ruined by the AH. It offers challenging group content and nearly endless character progression.

    3. League of Legends: I played ranked and only ranked for many hours every day as it gives me sense of character progression and growing powerful in very intense short action-packed bursts. It also keeps offering me challenge as I try to climb the ladder.

    What do all these games have in common? They're games I can pick up and play when I feel like it. It's sad that WoW can't manage to offer this, because I do love the Warcraft lore and universe and the gameplay mechanics and fluidity as a whole. But there's just nothing to do that compares to the above.
    Your reasoning seems awkward to me.

    1. You're right, WoW doesn't have a strong single player campaign, or focus at the endgame level, but thus is the nature of an MMO. I beg to differ about finding and discovering lore though.

    2. WoW absolutely has challenging group content in raiding, and near endless character progression, as very few players walk out of every tier with full BiS.

    3. WoW has many types or rankings, from Challenge Mode times, to raiding, to just pure DPS according to boss fights.

    I don't see your dilemma.

  11. #751
    How many more difficulty modes do we need?

    There was:
    5man dungeons (you do while lvling) => once you lvl capped you go 10ppl => then you go 40 ppl

    Then people start complaining "oh my god its so hard to bring 40 ppl together whine whine whine"

    5man normals while lvl => HEROIC 5ppl (because oh my god how hard to bring 10 ppl)=> 10 and 25 raids

    Yet again, people whine "oh my god its so hard to bring 25 ppl, i wanna raid everything in 10ppl"

    In Wotlk we got 10 and 25 modes for all raids, and hardmodes for even harder content, then comes 3.2.0

    5man => h 5man => 10 raid => h 10 raid => 25 raid => h 25raid

    Cata comes and shatter everything, 10 and 25 are now separated, LFR.

    In MoP we have scenarios and heroic scenarios, challenge modes and Flexes, now its like:

    5man => 3man => h 5man => h 3man => LFR => Flex => 10 or 25 raids => h 10 or 25 raids
    => Challenge modes

    Don't you think it looks silly? One thing i learned from this - people will never stop whine. I was silent, now it's my turn.

    There are a lot of speeches, that so-called "casuals" do need "end-game" content. Why is that? Why raids? Your "end-game" content should be determined by how far you reached. If you can't or don't want progress through raids, then your "end-game" should be heroics 5 mans or collecting pets, or whatever.
    Why do "casuals" need raids after all? There are a lot of content for "casuals_who_don't_have_time_to_play" (while playing more than most good raiders) like achievements or pet battles. To watch content? I wonder if they need 15 LFR runs to "proper watch it". No, they grind low-quality gear while imagine themselves as raiders, gear which they doesn't need since they don't progress further.


    I think vanilla was best, but not because it was "SO HARDCORE, AND EVERYTHING WAS AWESOME BLAH BLAH BLAH". No, just because of concept was better. WoW was an RPG once, but with all those menus and modes, separated pvp and pve, queues and etc i feel it becomes less solid, less of rpg and more like a bunch of mini games while in one world and setting but only slightly integrated together.
    Blizzard does great, but i think they choose a wrong path. For example we need some group content for 2-3 people? They say scenario? I call it group quest. May be even random daily group quest. Back in vanilla there was no random dailies, connected realms, solo scenarios, phase quests and many things. But now with new technology they could augment those fundamental WoW concepts. Its hard to find group for 5ppl\raid\whatever? That's why we had guilds in the first place! But instead of making game in a way to motivate community stand together and do things - they look for easier ways and make all those dungeon finders and modes_for_everyone. Sorry for my bad english.

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'm not sure you can speak to the demands of most casuals but even if you can it wouldn't necesarilly mean that. It would mean hardcore players have to care about the experience of casual players and not sit atop their ivory towers. Why should they do this? Well if they're interested in a building a community I would suggest the best people to do this are the most skilled among them. If not well then they can watch it all crumble down.
    Though fact is most of us would rather see it crumble down. Because the way WoW was and is. The Raid-Progression Focused game is what most of us still love. That's why we Raid. We know our Guild Mates well. We got to know them over the course of the years. Why should we surrender the Fun we have as Groups so single individuals can have their fun? The way I see Casuals behave most of the time tells me there'll be no Community even if we empathize to them. Because they just want to do their shit in the hour or 15 minutes they can surrender for the sake of it. And that's not what the Game is about. And if the Soul of the whole thing is the thing that needs to be surrendered so that it can live a few years longer - we should just let it go as the Game it always was. An MMORPG.

  13. #753
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robotis View Post
    Assuming you realize most people won't ever step up to Flex/Normal/Heroic, and rarely, if ever do guilded/organized activities.

    There's several options I see:


    1) The BC Model:
    Spamming BGs

    This was awful.


    2) The late wrath model:
    A highly puggable raid/part of a raid
    Dungeons

    This could work, but I don't think they could make enough dungeons to sustain people.

    3) Tell people to deal with it.

    I don't think this'll work either, as without something to do at the endgame, these people are likely to get bored even faster than they are already, and quit in even bigger droves.

    I'm one to admit that LFR isn't ideal. Infact, it's far from ideal. But in terms of a game based almost entirely around raiding, I don't see what other options they have now that an influx of people replacing people quitting has stopped. They got to keep all those casuals occupied somehow, and it seems to halfway-halfway work.

    Ideally, they need a shit load of dungeons, and a further delayed LFR, or something. But that'd never happen.


    I just think, also, people just need to realize most people don't do, haven't done, and will likely never do organized activities in this, or any other MMO. It's the nature of the audience, or something. Why do MMOs attract these people? I don't know :x But they do, and they're the majority. So they have to be pleased somehow, right?
    Enough already. People like you talk about the removal of LFR more than anyone. I know, post in one of the 500 other "To those who wawaynt LFR removed..." threads.
    Last edited by Seezer; 2013-11-03 at 05:00 AM.

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Maybe it's helpful if I'd post examples of what games I currently am playing instead of WoW:

    1. Dark Souls: Very challenging game with lots of lore and very hard PvE content, I'm relatively new to the game (been playing it for 2 months now) but it's awesome how the game offers you all these PvE challenges and has a proper sense of progression and rewards. You feel your character has grown particularly stronger and all sorts of secrets and hidden treasures and story progression keeps you going back to previous zones.

    2. Diablo 3: Diablo 3 would've been a perfect game if it hadn't been ruined by the AH. It offers challenging group content and nearly endless character progression.

    3. League of Legends: I played ranked and only ranked for many hours every day as it gives me sense of character progression and growing powerful in very intense short action-packed bursts. It also keeps offering me challenge as I try to climb the ladder.

    What do all these games have in common? They're games I can pick up and play when I feel like it. It's sad that WoW can't manage to offer this, because I do love the Warcraft lore and universe and the gameplay mechanics and fluidity as a whole. But there's just nothing to do that compares to the above.
    I can give you the first one, but the second one? D3 is boring as fuck (you just play through the same content a hundred times in a row), is not actually challenging at all (I started Inferno on MP10 and got through two bosses before deciding it was taking too long), and the 'character progression' you're mentioning is just grinding for gear with higher numbers on it. That's not progression. That's numbers. On a computer screen. That don't affect anything.

    As for League, that's a completely different genre and can't be compared to WoW. You can compare it to Heroes of the Storm when it comes out, though.

  15. #755
    I mean outside of raiding, WoW is basically dead. There is no content outside of raids for solo players or groups. There's nothing that could allow me to play for 2 hours whenever I please where I can leave the group at any time with no major repercussions.


    Oh wait, yes there is.

    World Bosses
    Zandalari Rare Groups
    Timeless Isle
    Daily Hubs
    Farming
    other Farming
    Dungeons
    Scenarios
    Pet Battles
    Challenge Dungeons
    Brawlers Guild
    Challenge Arena
    Battlegrounds
    Rated Battlegrounds
    Arena
    Old Raids and Dungeons
    Old Rep grinds
    Talking to other people in chat about organizing a Flex Raid (ironically similar to World Boss groups)
    Flipping items on the Auction House/Checking the BMAH
    Achievements

    Originally LFR was there to "See the content", but of course, thats not what players really wanted, they wanted to feel like they were Raiders, just with none of the effort, none of the time, none of the organization. They wanted rewards from it as well. A new shiny carrot to follow. So now LFR is considered raiding by Blizzard, with its own tiers and rewards.

    Could you tell me if you've returned a game to a store before and told them you didn't have time to finish it? Or it would be too long and arduous to complete the game on hard and see the special ending? Because honestly that's what people that defend LFR sound like to me.

  16. #756
    SOmeone mentioned mario kart racing... i'd actually enjoy this i think. Or rather some form of racing with mounts and items to use. The arena or 'tracks' would be instance areas of the real world. Queue up and race people on your favourite mount, using items to buff and debuff yourself and others. Vanity pets,mounts from it. Race through zones on special tracks. I know people will bash the idea but I think it'd be hella fun to do while you wait for a LFR to pop

  17. #757
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNamedPride View Post
    Though fact is most of us would rather see it crumble down. Because the way WoW was and is. The Raid-Progression Focused game is what most of us still love. That's why we Raid. We know our Guild Mates well. We got to know them over the course of the years. Why should we surrender the Fun we have as Groups so single individuals can have their fun? The way I see Casuals behave most of the time tells me there'll be no Community even if we empathize to them. Because they just want to do their shit in the hour or 15 minutes they can surrender for the sake of it. And that's not what the Game is about. And if the Soul of the whole thing is the thing that needs to be surrendered so that it can live a few years longer - we should just let it go as the Game it always was. An MMORPG.
    If I can't have it nobody can! At least your honest. Scorched wow policy.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #758
    i don't care if lfr is removed. it should probably stay.

    i just don't want to be strongly incentivized to do so. i want to raid flex and that's it. i don't want to have to run lfr for weeks and weeks or possibly months to do that.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Strangewayes View Post
    Could you tell me if you've returned a game to a store before and told them you didn't have time to finish it? Or it would be too long and arduous to complete the game on hard and see the special ending? Because honestly that's what people that defend LFR sound like to me.
    Casuals want bosses to kill without having to quit their job and set up a video game schedule.

    Blizzard wants casual dollars.

    There aren't enough people like you to make them give a shit what you think.

    Deal with it.

  20. #760
    Hm. Almost died laughing @ Quixdraw's Post. So the Hardcore Players are the baddies all over again? We put a lot of effort into Heroic Raiding, so it's only natural that we demand to keep our Content to ourselves? What many people don't seem to get is that in a MMORPG time is the biggest factor. The more of the Playtime you bought you use the more you're rewarded. Put some time into your character and learn how to play: You'll find it much easier to find a Raid you're comfortable with and that has acceptable Raidschedules and there you go. You can even go and PuG normal anytime you want to. Most people are just too fucking lazy to do it. That's why I play on a German server even though I usually totally hate Germans. I found a Heroic Progression Raid that could have me around even though my english and my german are merely O.K. And guess what. The acceptance for less casual content is so fucking high in the German community. You rarely see somebody complain about the lack of content. The Casuals have better things to do rather than to waste their time with Discussions about a Game. They respect real Raiders and get along quite well with them, for most of the time. Some should really learn from their Community.

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