To people whom want LFR removed: What endgame do you propose for the casual players?

[PrairieChicken]

I'll just elaborate on what I wrote on the top


Normal dungeons : Give blue quality loot, JP and VP. All bosses have chance (low) to drop LFR quality epics for all slots.
Heroic dungeons : Give LFR quality or lower loot. Primarily focused on raiders. It's very very difficult and requires premades.
Scenarios : Same as dungeons except it does not have fixed item table. Something like unlucky streak prevention could be implemented to offset too much RNG
Dailies : Doing the daily quests give JP and VP. You can buy blue quality items in lower reputation, and progressively give better rep rewards as you get higher. If you reach certain reputation they give you special quests to give you normal quality epics. Speed is significantly faster compared to mop (you can run 3 days a week without being gimped too much)
Weeklies : Same as dailies except its once a week
Professions : You can craft account-bound epics. Since they cannot be traded with other players the crafting will be cheaper and faster compared to boe ones. You start from basic item, and items have "craft upgrade" that is similar to item upgrades but require different materials and have weekly cooldown. So for example your item would start in 0/10 craft upgrade, every week you can have 1 upgrades until you reach 10/10. Boe epics remain but require extra work/mat and generally are very expensive to make.
Grinding : You can grind mobs, get reputation or turn-in items which can be traded for epic items or JP/VP. Or other grinds could give you boa materials which you can use to craft epics.
Treasure-finding and Rare-hunting : The world bosses and rares have chance to drop from blue items to LFR/Flex/Normal level epic items as well as pets/mounts/heirlooms/toys. Should be more unpredictable.
Points : JP and VP can be gained by doing almost any activity (so you can do whatever you want to cap points). JP could buy blue quality items and heirlooms and other miscellaneous stuff, while VP will give you normal raid quality items.
LFR : Same as now, except it will feel significantly less forced on everyone
Quests : you get epic questline which takes long time, it gives progressively better reward until at the end give you normal quality epic of your choice. So extension of class quests in vanilla or lower version of current legendary quest.

New tier comes out and you get whole new set of above. If they really extended dev size these should be absolutely doable

[judgementofantonidas]

There is no difference between LFR and a dungeon, except that LFR followed by just higher difficulties means that essentially players will be repeating the same stuff many many times.

Raid it on LFR? Next to Flex. Done with Flex? Enjoy Normal. Good enough for Normal? Heroic time.
That is just ridiculous and tedious. Nobody wants to have multiple tiers of content all be the same thing. That's why it nice for heroic to have an extra boss. (Sinestra Algalon Ra-den)

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Fine. All heroic raiding guilds quit vs all non-raiders (excluding those who PvP) quit. See what then? See who blizzard tries to bring back with promises of content made for them.

Every player 13/13 ToT vs every player 0/12 ToT

Which would Blizzard actually worry about?

neither because the PVP weenies that you so nonchalantly disscounted would pay enough in subs to keep blizzard fat and happy.

[Ronduwil]

While features like LFR, which reward players for being bad/lazy

And that's where you're wrong. LFR rewards players for persevering despite having to deal with bad/lazy players in their group. Why do you want to punish the 20 people who worked hard to overcome the obstacles being posed by 5 trolls/uncaring players in the group? I still don't get that.

we just have to face the fact that MMOs have been looking to the casual audience to make money.

It's called growing up. I wasn't exactly happy when hip hop took off in the '90s, but that's what was selling. I didn't get it, and I wasn't happy about it, but I coped. Maybe your parents were out to please you. Maybe your teachers were out to coddle you. Maybe colleges begged you to apply. That's over and done with now. No one is out to please you any more. Blizzard, like every other major game publisher out there, is in this industry to make as much money as possible, and they're not going to do that by making one guy or even 100,000 people happy. They need to please as many people as they can.

[Mormolyce]

It deffinatly is the biggest challenge MMOs have ahead of them. Gaming changed a lot the last 5-10 years, grinding and long uninspired content is a far bigger no no now.

And so are subs.

So basically, gamers want infinite content with no repetition, for free.

Meanwhile, back in the real world...

[Hypro]

LFR harmed the commuinty. I like Flex. I get to talk to people from my realm. I can black list people. They need to bring that shit back like BC. where i have to ask trade to find groups. Kill LFR/D and make Flex the new LFR.. Server only...

And as to getting bored. i still play yet the only time i log on is the morning to do my daily CDs and then to raid...

[judgementofantonidas]

flex mode.
it does what LFR was meant to do, be a easier relaxed version of the actual raid.

but LFR has to be retard-proofed due to the completely random quality of people in LFR and the fact that there is no communication between them such as vent or mumble.

Ran in two flex wing 4 groups today. The first after 5 wipes at just prior to the final phase I left stating that the group was irredeamable, which it was. Dps screaming that if they just dpsed harder nobody would NEED to interupt the mind controls.............................

Second one I lead with 550 players and it went smoothly after kicking the first two people who failed at what they were assigned.

Flex COULD be a very good thing but it is turning into the new LF"R" and it is very easy to get into a frustrating group which you have little means of fixing BECAUSE it is nothing but a PUG.

[sizzlinsauce]

what endgame do we propose? how about if you can't figure out normal modes then leave it at that? Why is it every coked up dumdum feels entitled to everything cause they paid to be a part of it. Like saying "hey i paid for this really nice nascar and nascar pit crew, but im so horrible i cant compete in the daytona 500, you need to make a 2nd one that holds my hand the entire way so i can get the experience"

no, that's not how the world works. You do what you know you can do, be it being their drink caddy boy, or changing tires. If you can drive that car, go ahead but don't complain when you can't compete.

[Ragedaug]

There will always be new shoes to fill the void.

I do believe that's the first time I've heard that allegory and it has me wondering exactly what kind of a void these new shoes will fill.

I always figured the shoes were the void (or rather the inside of the shoes was) due to the more common saying going something like "you'll have some big shoes to fill". I suppose if the big shoes were big enough, they could contain a void that could be filled with a new smaller pairs of shoes...

[judgementofantonidas]

The main flaw of flex is that it subjects players to the often absurd whims and expectations of other players in terms of joining the group. Arena and rated bg's suffer from the same issue, and there too, the alternative of random bg's exists and serves a worthwhile purpose.

Here we go with the "your requirements for a smooth run are absurd" statements.
Flex is not a gearing venue as the players have no control over the distribution of the gear that drops, IF IT EVEN DROPS, so it is nothing more than a glorified LF"R" with more stringent timers, higher health, and more damage. Although there was a blue post stating that the individual loot system could be removed from flex in the future which would be a good thing.

So, it is absurd for quality players to only invite other quality players in order to make the run go more smoothly, more quickly, and leave time for more productive pursuits.

[Garehn Vi-Brittania]

Flex is easy enough to where its do-able by casuals and it requires a higher IQ than a condom to complete. You don't need a specific raid schedule either. All Lfr is doing is making the lazy raiders lazier.

[judgementofantonidas]

I think it's just that people whom quit aren't being replaced,

I will admit that it is very hard to find the interest in stepping back and trying to teach new players what comes second nature after playing for so long. The bright side is that there are many guilds out there that seem to enjoy never getting past anything but preliminary bosses.

[Ronduwil]

what endgame do we propose? how about if you can't figure out normal modes then leave it at that? Why is it every coked up dumdum feels entitled to everything cause they paid to be a part of it. Like saying "hey i paid for this really nice nascar and nascar pit crew, but im so horrible i cant compete in the daytona 500, you need to make a 2nd one that holds my hand the entire way so i can get the experience"

People pay to watch Nascar. Who is paying to watch you play WoW? That's one place this analogy falls apart. Also you have to participate in qualifying trials to compete in the Daytona 500. If you don't qualify you can still race on other tracks. It's not like WoW where you have to play on Blizzard's servers or break your ToU.

[Swiftzy]

LFR of the previous tier, and slightly nerfed content for easily accessible normal modes. I like the idea of Flex, and i believe Flex should be the casual solution for the current tier.

[Ragedaug]

what endgame do we propose? how about if you can't figure out normal modes then leave it at that? Why is it every coked up dumdum feels entitled to everything cause they paid to be a part of it. Like saying "hey i paid for this really nice nascar and nascar pit crew, but im so horrible i cant compete in the daytona 500, you need to make a 2nd one that holds my hand the entire way so i can get the experience"

no, that's not how the world works. You do what you know you can do, be it being their drink caddy boy, or changing tires. If you can drive that car, go ahead but don't complain when you can't compete.

It's almost like you don't realize that there are more race circuits than NASCAR. If you can't compete at the highest level, there are TONS of smaller local race leagues that dumdums race at every week.

In a crazy kind of way it's like people find real world content tailored to their level, regardless of how skilled or dumdum they are...crazy.

[sizzlinsauce]

It's almost like you don't realize that there are more race circuits than NASCAR. If you can't compete at the highest level, there are TONS of smaller local race leagues that dumdums race at every week.

In a crazy kind of way it's like people find real world content tailored to their level, regardless of how skilled or dumdum they are...crazy.

and again there are "smaller circuits" for those who cant compete, like 5 mans 5 man heroics etc. if you can't bring it in raids, then why ask?

[Mormolyce]

LFR harmed the commuinty.

Only by encouraging people to interact with it.

[judgementofantonidas]

Then, really, is there even any content for casuals aside from pointless side activities?

Every player chooses whether to be a pointless addition to the multitudes of other players or to learn, improve, and progress through content as blizzard sets it forth.

So, yes, if you are not happy with the dozens of things that were put in the game to keep "you" happy as the casual player then by all means deem it pointless but recognize that you always had the choice to attempt something more "meaningful" related to this game.

[Ronduwil]

LFR of the previous tier, and slightly nerfed content for easily accessible normal modes. I like the idea of Flex, and i believe Flex should be the casual solution for the current tier.

Except:

Flex COULD be a very good thing but it is turning into the new LF"R" and it is very easy to get into a frustrating group which you have little means of fixing BECAUSE it is nothing but a PUG.

Do you really want all those people who currently run LFR in your Flex groups? Would you run Flex with them? Also Flex groups require hours to organize in most cases. This completely excludes LFR's primary audience. If you think Flex is so great then do that. No one's asking you to run LFR.

[judgementofantonidas]

not something anyone who dings 90 can do.

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and right there is half the problem with LF"R".

"I'm 90 I canz raid nowz".

[Ronduwil]

It's almost like you don't realize that there are more race circuits than NASCAR. If you can't compete at the highest level, there are TONS of smaller local race leagues that dumdums race at every week.

In a crazy kind of way it's like people find real world content tailored to their level, regardless of how skilled or dumdum they are...crazy.

You bring up a good point. We should be picketing Austin Park and Pizza because they are letting "bads" ride go-karts on their kiddie track. How could they tarnish the sport of racing like that???

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and right there is half the problem with LF"R".

"I'm 90 I canz raid nowz".

I don't think that's just LFR. It's the fact that Blizzard removed all the fun things that level 90 players used to do and stuck them in raids. Challenging bosses? Not in dungeons any more... just in raids. High end crafting mats? Not in dungeons any more... just in raids. Pets? Not something you have to carefully hunt or grind for anymore. You just play Pokemon for them now. My Little Panda Island Adventure just isn't enough to keep these newly leveled players busy. That's why we need LFR.